[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"footer-top-topics-es":3,"footer-top-speakers-es":65,"transcript-eb228df7-563c-4a03-a0a5-5f0ff583c800-es":172,"transcript-poster-eb228df7-563c-4a03-a0a5-5f0ff583c800":1974},{"limit":4,"offset":5,"topics":6,"total":64},10,0,[7,13,19,25,31,36,41,47,53,58],{"label":8,"n_speakers":9,"n_utterances":10,"n_videos":11,"slug":12},"Seguridad Nacional",26,2695,190,"seguranca-nacional",{"label":14,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":16,"n_videos":17,"slug":18},"Educación",32,1685,229,"educacao",{"label":20,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":22,"n_videos":23,"slug":24},"Seguridad pública y orden",23,1580,244,"seguranca-publica-e-ordem",{"label":26,"n_speakers":27,"n_utterances":28,"n_videos":29,"slug":30},"Combate a la Impunidad",33,1469,292,"combate-a-impunidade",{"label":32,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":33,"n_videos":34,"slug":35},"Política monetaria",1448,303,"politica-monetaria",{"label":37,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":38,"n_videos":39,"slug":40},"Poder judicial",846,149,"poder-judiciario",{"label":42,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":44,"n_videos":45,"slug":46},"Servicio Público",28,788,178,"servico-publico",{"label":48,"n_speakers":49,"n_utterances":50,"n_videos":51,"slug":52},"Salud Pública \u002F Seguridad Pública",25,756,139,"saude-publica-seguranca-publica",{"label":54,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":55,"n_videos":56,"slug":57},"Política social",684,197,"politica-social",{"label":59,"n_speakers":60,"n_utterances":61,"n_videos":62,"slug":63},"Reforma fiscal",22,671,134,"reforma-fiscal",625,{"limit":4,"offset":5,"speakers":66,"total":171},[67,81,93,102,112,123,134,142,149,160],{"slug":68,"name":69,"party":70,"role":70,"state":70,"n_speeches":71,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":72,"photo_url":76,"bio_short":70,"wikidata_id":77,"mandate_status":78,"social_links":79},"renan-santos","Renan Santos","",22525,[73,74,75],"Abuso de Autoridad","Acciones afirmativas","Acción ejecutiva","\u002Fprofiles\u002Frenan-santos\u002Fphoto.png","Q51882553","none",{"twitter":80},"@RenanSantosMBL",{"slug":82,"name":83,"party":70,"role":70,"state":84,"n_speeches":85,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":86,"photo_url":89,"bio_short":70,"wikidata_id":90,"mandate_status":78,"social_links":91},"romeu-zema","Romeu Zema","MG",12888,[75,87,88],"Activismo político","Afiliación Partidaria","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fromeu-zema\u002Fphoto.png","Q57092113",{"twitter":92},"@RomeuZema",{"slug":94,"name":95,"party":70,"role":70,"state":70,"n_speeches":96,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":97,"bio_short":70,"mandate_status":78,"social_links":99},"pablo-marcal","Pablo Marçal",12772,[98,75,87],"Acción Humanitaria",{"twitter":100,"youtube":101},"@pablomarcal","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002F@pablomarcall",{"slug":103,"name":104,"party":70,"role":70,"state":105,"n_speeches":106,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":107,"bio_short":70,"wikidata_id":110,"mandate_status":78,"social_links":111},"fernando-haddad","Fernando Haddad","SP",12647,[88,108,109],"Agricultura y agronegocio","Alianzas políticas","Q3069485",{},{"slug":113,"name":114,"party":70,"role":70,"state":115,"n_speeches":116,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":117,"photo_url":119,"bio_short":70,"wikidata_id":120,"mandate_status":78,"social_links":121},"ronaldo-caiado","Ronaldo Caiado","GO",12538,[74,88,118],"Agenda Pública","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fronaldo-caiado\u002Fphoto.png","Q10364348",{"twitter":122},"@ronaldocaiado",{"slug":124,"name":125,"party":70,"role":126,"state":105,"n_speeches":127,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":128,"photo_url":130,"bio_short":70,"wikidata_id":131,"mandate_status":78,"social_links":132},"tarcisio","Tarcisio","Governador",11298,[129,88,118],"Actos Legislativos Locales","\u002Fprofiles\u002Ftarcisio\u002Fphoto.png","Q60392579",{"twitter":133},"tarcisiogdf",{"slug":135,"name":136,"party":70,"role":70,"state":70,"n_speeches":137,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":138,"photo_url":139,"bio_short":70,"wikidata_id":140,"mandate_status":78,"social_links":141},"luis-inacio-lula-da-silva","Luis Inacio Lula da Silva",10531,[87,88,108],"\u002Fprofiles\u002Fluis-inacio-lula-da-silva\u002Fphoto.png","Q37181",{},{"slug":143,"name":144,"party":70,"role":70,"state":70,"n_speeches":145,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":146,"bio_short":70,"mandate_status":78,"social_links":148},"augusto-cury","Augusto Cury",8912,[75,108,147],"Agro y desarrollo regional",{},{"slug":150,"name":151,"party":70,"role":70,"state":105,"n_speeches":152,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":153,"photo_url":156,"bio_short":70,"wikidata_id":157,"mandate_status":78,"social_links":158},"kim-kataguiri","Kim Kataguiri",8748,[154,75,155],"Abono Salarial","Activismo judicial","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fkim-kataguiri\u002Fphoto.png","Q21715169",{"twitter":159},"@KimKataguiri",{"slug":161,"name":162,"party":70,"role":70,"state":163,"n_speeches":164,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":165,"photo_url":167,"bio_short":70,"wikidata_id":168,"mandate_status":78,"social_links":169},"flavio-bolsonaro","Flavio Bolsonaro","RJ",8066,[166,75,87],"Acción de oposición","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fflavio-bolsonaro\u002Fphoto.png","Q10283057",{"twitter":170},"@FlavioBolsonaro",37,{"falas":173,"lang":1962,"meta":1963},[174,181,188,195,202,209,214,220,226,233,240,246,253,259,266,271,277,283,288,293,298,303,309,314,319,324,329,334,340,345,351,357,363,368,373,379,385,391,396,402,408,414,420,425,431,437,443,449,454,460,466,472,478,484,490,496,502,508,514,520,526,532,538,544,550,556,562,568,574,580,586,592,598,604,610,616,622,628,634,640,646,652,658,664,670,676,682,688,694,700,706,712,718,724,730,736,742,748,754,760,766,772,778,784,790,796,802,808,814,820,826,832,838,844,850,856,862,868,874,880,886,892,898,904,910,916,922,928,934,940,946,952,958,964,970,975,981,987,993,999,1004,1010,1016,1022,1028,1034,1040,1046,1052,1058,1063,1069,1075,1081,1087,1093,1099,1105,1111,1117,1123,1129,1135,1141,1147,1153,1159,1165,1171,1177,1183,1189,1195,1201,1207,1213,1219,1225,1231,1236,1242,1248,1254,1260,1266,1272,1278,1284,1290,1296,1302,1307,1313,1319,1325,1331,1337,1343,1348,1354,1360,1366,1372,1378,1384,1390,1396,1402,1408,1414,1420,1426,1432,1438,1444,1450,1456,1462,1468,1474,1480,1486,1492,1498,1504,1510,1516,1522,1528,1534,1539,1545,1551,1557,1563,1569,1575,1581,1587,1593,1599,1605,1611,1617,1623,1628,1634,1640,1646,1652,1658,1664,1670,1676,1682,1688,1694,1700,1706,1712,1718,1723,1729,1735,1741,1747,1753,1759,1765,1771,1777,1783,1789,1795,1801,1807,1813,1819,1825,1831,1837,1843,1849,1855,1861,1867,1873,1879,1885,1891,1897,1903,1909,1914,1920,1926,1932,1938,1944,1950,1956],{"idx":5,"utterance_id":175,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":176,"start_s":177,"end_s":178,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},"65601","Mi entrevistado de hoy es profesor e investigador de la Fundação Getúlio Vargas desde 1989.",11.1,16.72,15,false,{"idx":182,"utterance_id":183,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":184,"start_s":185,"end_s":186,"word_count":187,"indexable":180},1,"65602","Antes, trabajó en el Ministerio de Planificación con João Sayad y en el Ministerio de Hacienda con Dilson Funaro.",17.08,23.32,17,{"idx":189,"utterance_id":190,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":191,"start_s":192,"end_s":193,"word_count":194,"indexable":180},2,"65603","Fue investigador del Instituto de Estudios Avanzados de la USP y autor de varios libros sobre economía.",23.9,29.54,16,{"idx":196,"utterance_id":197,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":198,"start_s":199,"end_s":200,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},3,"65604","Buenas noches, Paulo Nogueira Batista.",30.26,31.56,5,{"idx":203,"utterance_id":204,"speaker_name":205,"text":206,"start_s":207,"end_s":208,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},4,"65605","Desconhecido","Buenas noches.",31.6,31.9,{"idx":201,"utterance_id":210,"speaker_name":205,"text":211,"start_s":212,"end_s":213,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},"65606","¿Cómo estás?",31.96,33.22,{"idx":215,"utterance_id":216,"speaker_name":205,"text":217,"start_s":218,"end_s":219,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},6,"65607","Bien, gracias.",33.38,33.88,{"idx":221,"utterance_id":222,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":223,"start_s":224,"end_s":225,"word_count":187,"indexable":180},7,"65608","¿Qué hay de verdad en lo que la gente... piensa, en el sentido común, sobre el FMI?",34.74,41.24,{"idx":227,"utterance_id":228,"speaker_name":205,"text":229,"start_s":230,"end_s":231,"word_count":232,"indexable":180},8,"65609","Noté, por ejemplo, que a lo largo del período en que estuve allí, el Fondo Monetario cambió para mejor en su evaluación macroeconómica.",41.72,50.58,24,{"idx":234,"utterance_id":235,"speaker_name":205,"text":236,"start_s":237,"end_s":238,"word_count":239,"indexable":180},9,"65610","Gracias al trabajo de algunas personas, por ejemplo, destacaría a Domenico Stauskarn, que fue director gerente del Fondo Monetario, el número uno de la administración, el ex candidato a presidente francés, socialista, que era una persona de mente abierta, con cierta formación keynesiana.",50.94,67.46,42,{"idx":4,"utterance_id":241,"speaker_name":205,"text":242,"start_s":243,"end_s":244,"word_count":245,"indexable":180},"65611","Y trajo como economista jefe a Olivier Blanchard, que es un gran macroeconomista, neokeynesiano, también flexible y de mente abierta.",68.34,78.9,18,{"idx":247,"utterance_id":248,"speaker_name":205,"text":249,"start_s":250,"end_s":251,"word_count":252,"indexable":180},11,"65612","Y también con el trabajo de algunas delegaciones: la brasileña, la rusa, la india.",79.64,84.14,14,{"idx":254,"utterance_id":255,"speaker_name":205,"text":256,"start_s":257,"end_s":258,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},12,"65613","Aireamos el pensamiento del Fondo Monetario.",85.14,87.34,{"idx":260,"utterance_id":261,"speaker_name":205,"text":262,"start_s":263,"end_s":264,"word_count":265,"indexable":180},13,"65614","Tanto que te diré que creo que hoy, incluso con cierto retroceso que ocurrió después de la salida de Dominique Strauss-Kahn y de Olivier Blanchard, y con la normalización de la crisis —la crisis se atenuó— eso provocó cierto retroceso.",87.9,103.52,41,{"idx":252,"utterance_id":267,"speaker_name":205,"text":268,"start_s":269,"end_s":270,"word_count":27,"indexable":180},"65615","Pero aun con ese retroceso en las reformas del pensamiento del fondo, diría que el pensamiento económico del fondo hoy es más avanzado que lo que se considera ortodoxia económica en Brasil.",103.56,115.24,{"idx":179,"utterance_id":272,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":273,"start_s":274,"end_s":275,"word_count":276,"indexable":180},"65616","¿Es decir, el FMI hoy sería una buena influencia sobre los economistas brasileños, eso es lo que estás diciendo?",117.48,123.8,19,{"idx":194,"utterance_id":278,"speaker_name":205,"text":279,"start_s":280,"end_s":281,"word_count":282,"indexable":180},"65617","Sería, sería bueno que muchos economistas brasileños leyeran los estudios e investigaciones que hace el fondo, porque con frecuencia son interesantes.",123.86,131.22,20,{"idx":187,"utterance_id":284,"speaker_name":205,"text":285,"start_s":286,"end_s":287,"word_count":282,"indexable":180},"65618","Ahora, dicho esto, no quiero tampoco pintar un cuadro del FMI como una maravilla, no, de ninguna manera.",131.56,136.2,{"idx":245,"utterance_id":289,"speaker_name":205,"text":290,"start_s":291,"end_s":292,"word_count":245,"indexable":180},"65619","El FMI es una entidad gobernada, la gobernanza es desequilibrada, hicimos un esfuerzo por mejorar esa gobernanza.",136.78,143.54,{"idx":276,"utterance_id":294,"speaker_name":205,"text":295,"start_s":296,"end_s":297,"word_count":187,"indexable":180},"65620","Para aumentar la representación de los países emergentes en el fondo, pero ese esfuerzo tuvo solo un éxito parcial.",144.38,150.18,{"idx":282,"utterance_id":299,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":300,"start_s":301,"end_s":302,"word_count":194,"indexable":180},"65621","Y termina habiendo una imposición de agenda que responde a los intereses de esos países, ¿no?",150.6,157.18,{"idx":304,"utterance_id":305,"speaker_name":205,"text":306,"start_s":307,"end_s":308,"word_count":15,"indexable":180},21,"65622","Sí, y se mezcla: el Fondo Monetario es una entidad técnica y política al mismo tiempo, y no es infrecuente que se utilice para avanzar las agendas bilaterales de los países dominantes.",157.24,167.8,{"idx":60,"utterance_id":310,"speaker_name":205,"text":311,"start_s":312,"end_s":313,"word_count":282,"indexable":180},"65623","De ahí que la reticencia del sentido común, de lo que tú llamaste sentido común, respecto al fondo, esté justificada.",169.32,174.7,{"idx":21,"utterance_id":315,"speaker_name":205,"text":316,"start_s":317,"end_s":318,"word_count":245,"indexable":180},"65624","Porque en el proceso de negociación de un acuerdo con el fondo, las influencias puras están frecuentemente presentes también.",174.88,182.14,{"idx":232,"utterance_id":320,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":321,"start_s":322,"end_s":323,"word_count":282,"indexable":180},"65625","Es decir, es muy importante no deberle al fondo, porque eso puede representar una pérdida de soberanía muy grande.",182.64,189.14,{"idx":49,"utterance_id":325,"speaker_name":205,"text":326,"start_s":327,"end_s":328,"word_count":276,"indexable":180},"65626","Por eso Brasil hizo un esfuerzo exitoso de acumular reservas, que comenzó en 2005, 2006.",189.28,193.8,{"idx":9,"utterance_id":330,"speaker_name":205,"text":331,"start_s":332,"end_s":333,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},"65627","En 2006, con más intensidad.",193.9,196.3,{"idx":335,"utterance_id":336,"speaker_name":205,"text":337,"start_s":338,"end_s":339,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},27,"65628","En 2006, con más fuerza con Manter, cuando Manter entró en el Ministerio de Hacienda.",196.34,199.84,{"idx":43,"utterance_id":341,"speaker_name":205,"text":342,"start_s":343,"end_s":344,"word_count":245,"indexable":180},"65629","Y hoy tenemos reservas elevadas, lo que le da a Brasil una protección que otros países no tienen.",200.52,205.28,{"idx":346,"utterance_id":347,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":348,"start_s":349,"end_s":350,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},29,"65630","¿Y con respecto a China?",206.56,208.9,{"idx":352,"utterance_id":353,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":354,"start_s":355,"end_s":356,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},30,"65631","Después te mudaste a China.",209.62,211.86,{"idx":358,"utterance_id":359,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":360,"start_s":361,"end_s":362,"word_count":232,"indexable":180},31,"65632","El Banco de los BRICS es un desarrollo de los propios BRICS, ese conjunto de países en desarrollo que tiene economías robustas, por así decirlo.",212.84,224.06,{"idx":15,"utterance_id":364,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":365,"start_s":366,"end_s":367,"word_count":346,"indexable":180},"65633","Y que no solo intentaron coordinarse, sino que están intentando crear mecanismos que no son propiamente los heredados de la posguerra, que son esos organismos multilaterales conocidos: Banco Mundial, FMI.",224.94,240.8,{"idx":27,"utterance_id":369,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":370,"start_s":371,"end_s":372,"word_count":260,"indexable":180},"65634","Intentando crear un polo para garantizar un equilibrio desde fuera, por así decirlo.",241.3,247.26,{"idx":374,"utterance_id":375,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":376,"start_s":377,"end_s":378,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},34,"65635","Intentaron un equilibrio desde dentro y ahora se está intentando un equilibrio desde fuera.",247.3,252.22,{"idx":380,"utterance_id":381,"speaker_name":205,"text":382,"start_s":383,"end_s":384,"word_count":182,"indexable":180},35,"65636","Exactamente.",252.3,252.9,{"idx":386,"utterance_id":387,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":388,"start_s":389,"end_s":390,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},36,"65637","¿Esto va a tener fuerza?",253.06,255.8,{"idx":171,"utterance_id":392,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":393,"start_s":394,"end_s":395,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},"65638","¿Crees que va a ganar impulso?",256.18,257.94,{"idx":397,"utterance_id":398,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":399,"start_s":400,"end_s":401,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},38,"65639","¿O el hecho de que Brasil esté en esa situación de ambigüedad perjudica el desarrollo de esas ideas?",258.2,265.1,{"idx":403,"utterance_id":404,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":405,"start_s":406,"end_s":407,"word_count":182,"indexable":180},39,"65640","Perjudica.",265.52,266.08,{"idx":409,"utterance_id":410,"speaker_name":205,"text":411,"start_s":412,"end_s":413,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},40,"65641","El tema que ahora planteas está ligado al anterior.",266.3,268.58,{"idx":265,"utterance_id":415,"speaker_name":205,"text":416,"start_s":417,"end_s":418,"word_count":419,"indexable":180},"65642","Si las instituciones de Bretton Woods, el FMI y el Banco Mundial, hubieran mostrado más apertura al cambio, como querían los BRICS, como quería Brasil, te digo con toda seguridad —yo estaba dentro— no habríamos avanzado hacia la creación de mecanismos propios.",271.12,288.04,47,{"idx":239,"utterance_id":421,"speaker_name":205,"text":422,"start_s":423,"end_s":424,"word_count":335,"indexable":180},"65643","Eso fue una decisión tomada por los BRICS a partir de 2012, que resultó de nuestra decepción por la lentitud del proceso de cambio de las entidades en Washington.",288.58,300.12,{"idx":426,"utterance_id":427,"speaker_name":205,"text":428,"start_s":429,"end_s":430,"word_count":21,"indexable":180},43,"65644","Entonces decidimos crear y se creó un banco de desarrollo, al que yo terminaría yendo, en Xanghái, un nuevo banco de desarrollo.",300.74,307.66,{"idx":432,"utterance_id":433,"speaker_name":205,"text":434,"start_s":435,"end_s":436,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},44,"65645","Que Brasil presidirá.",307.7,308.68,{"idx":438,"utterance_id":439,"speaker_name":205,"text":440,"start_s":441,"end_s":442,"word_count":252,"indexable":180},45,"65646","Brasil presidirá a partir de julio de 2020; ese es un punto importante.",309.48,312.98,{"idx":444,"utterance_id":445,"speaker_name":205,"text":446,"start_s":447,"end_s":448,"word_count":252,"indexable":180},46,"65647","Y también se creó un mecanismo de compartición de reservas, un fondo monetario de reservas.",313.38,319.52,{"idx":419,"utterance_id":450,"speaker_name":205,"text":451,"start_s":452,"end_s":453,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},"65648","Brasil tiene un papel muy importante en ambas negociaciones.",320.38,322.86,{"idx":455,"utterance_id":456,"speaker_name":205,"text":457,"start_s":458,"end_s":459,"word_count":352,"indexable":180},48,"65649","Diría incluso que Brasil en el período de Dilma, que ya era el gobierno de Dilma en ese momento, lideró en gran medida las dos negociaciones, principalmente la del fondo monetario.",322.92,333.42,{"idx":461,"utterance_id":462,"speaker_name":205,"text":463,"start_s":464,"end_s":465,"word_count":171,"indexable":180},49,"65650","Y no por casualidad fue en la cumbre de los BRICS en Fortaleza, la cumbre de hace cinco años, presidida por Dilma, que se firmaron los tratados de creación del Fondo Monetario de los BRICS y del nuevo Banco de Desarrollo.",334.76,347.02,{"idx":467,"utterance_id":468,"speaker_name":205,"text":469,"start_s":470,"end_s":471,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},50,"65651","Entonces esas entidades existen, están establecidas.",348.32,351.06,{"idx":473,"utterance_id":474,"speaker_name":205,"text":475,"start_s":476,"end_s":477,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},51,"65652","Lamentablemente, sin embargo, falta el motor Brasil.",352.28,356.76,{"idx":479,"utterance_id":480,"speaker_name":205,"text":481,"start_s":482,"end_s":483,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},52,"65653","Cuando Brasil se apaga...",357.28,358.2,{"idx":485,"utterance_id":486,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":487,"start_s":488,"end_s":489,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},53,"65654","La turbina brasileña está...",358.24,359.44,{"idx":491,"utterance_id":492,"speaker_name":205,"text":493,"start_s":494,"end_s":495,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},54,"65655","Está variada, desde 2015, en realidad.",359.9,362.52,{"idx":497,"utterance_id":498,"speaker_name":205,"text":499,"start_s":500,"end_s":501,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},55,"65656","¿Pero agravada ahora, posiblemente?",363.22,365.24,{"idx":503,"utterance_id":504,"speaker_name":205,"text":505,"start_s":506,"end_s":507,"word_count":9,"indexable":180},56,"65657","Agravada, diría que sí agravada, porque... Vamos a ver si mejora, pero en los gobiernos de Temer y Bolsonaro se agravó la avería del motor Brasil en los BRICS.",365.64,376,{"idx":509,"utterance_id":510,"speaker_name":205,"text":511,"start_s":512,"end_s":513,"word_count":358,"indexable":180},57,"65658","Así, tanto el Fondo Monetario de los BRICS como el Nuevo Banco de Desarrollo sufrieron por la ausencia de una presencia más fuerte, la falta de una presencia más fuerte de Brasil.",376.72,386.06,{"idx":515,"utterance_id":516,"speaker_name":205,"text":517,"start_s":518,"end_s":519,"word_count":196,"indexable":180},58,"65659","¿Puede eso cambiar?",387.2,387.78,{"idx":521,"utterance_id":522,"speaker_name":205,"text":523,"start_s":524,"end_s":525,"word_count":182,"indexable":180},59,"65660","Puede.",387.92,388.24,{"idx":527,"utterance_id":528,"speaker_name":205,"text":529,"start_s":530,"end_s":531,"word_count":461,"indexable":180},60,"65661","No podemos tampoco descartar totalmente que el gobierno actual, aunque haya cometido enormes errores en varias áreas, vaya ahora a evolucionar hacia una... Por ejemplo, tú mencionaste, es muy importante para el Nuevo Banco de Desarrollo quién será el presidente del banco que será designado por Brasil.",388.98,406.06,{"idx":533,"utterance_id":534,"speaker_name":205,"text":535,"start_s":536,"end_s":537,"word_count":245,"indexable":180},61,"65662","Negociamos eso en Fortaleza, que la India indicaría al primer presidente y Brasil indicaría al segundo.",406.82,411.24,{"idx":539,"utterance_id":540,"speaker_name":205,"text":541,"start_s":542,"end_s":543,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},62,"65663","Así que veremos a quién va a nombrar el gobierno.",412.36,414.46,{"idx":545,"utterance_id":546,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":547,"start_s":548,"end_s":549,"word_count":461,"indexable":180},63,"65664","Hoy el gobierno brasileño parece estar entre dos opciones igualmente incómodas: servir a un señor, en este caso los estadounidenses, o servir a dos, que tal vez sea tan malo como la primera alternativa, en lugar de optar por no servir a otros intereses que no sean los intereses nacionales.",414.86,435.12,{"idx":551,"utterance_id":552,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":553,"start_s":554,"end_s":555,"word_count":9,"indexable":180},64,"65665","¿No crees que esa falta de rumbo del gobierno brasileño en política exterior es una de las causas por las que la turbina brasileña acaba perdiendo potencia?",435.48,444.62,{"idx":557,"utterance_id":558,"speaker_name":205,"text":559,"start_s":560,"end_s":561,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},65,"65666","Sin duda.",445.02,445.52,{"idx":563,"utterance_id":564,"speaker_name":205,"text":565,"start_s":566,"end_s":567,"word_count":260,"indexable":180},66,"65667","Esa falta de rumbo de la política exterior se agravó considerablemente en el gobierno de Bolsonaro.",446.94,451.6,{"idx":569,"utterance_id":570,"speaker_name":205,"text":571,"start_s":572,"end_s":573,"word_count":252,"indexable":180},67,"65668","Política exterior, en sentido amplio, incluyendo la política económica exterior, no solo la del Itamaraty.",452.24,457.56,{"idx":575,"utterance_id":576,"speaker_name":205,"text":577,"start_s":578,"end_s":579,"word_count":409,"indexable":180},68,"65669","Y sucedió lo siguiente, otra vez, creo que la ficha empezó a caer, pero en los primeros, digamos, nueve, diez meses del gobierno, había una idea de que nosotros construiríamos, que Bolsonaro construiría una relación especial con Trump.",458.64,473.62,{"idx":581,"utterance_id":582,"speaker_name":205,"text":583,"start_s":584,"end_s":585,"word_count":304,"indexable":180},69,"65670","Y empezó a hacer una serie de concesiones unilaterales y manifestaciones, a veces incluso humillantes, vergonzosas, de alineamiento con el gobierno de Trump.",474.96,486.48,{"idx":587,"utterance_id":588,"speaker_name":205,"text":589,"start_s":590,"end_s":591,"word_count":386,"indexable":180},70,"65671","Y lo que pasó, en mi opinión, en mi lectura, es que, con el paso del tiempo, quedó clarísimo que esas concesiones unilaterales, esas manifestaciones de amor y de adhesión, no estaban teniendo ninguna contraprestación.",487.58,500.76,{"idx":593,"utterance_id":594,"speaker_name":205,"text":595,"start_s":596,"end_s":597,"word_count":182,"indexable":180},71,"65672","Ninguna.",502.44,502.78,{"idx":599,"utterance_id":600,"speaker_name":205,"text":601,"start_s":602,"end_s":603,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},72,"65673","Ninguna área.",503.6,504.14,{"idx":605,"utterance_id":606,"speaker_name":205,"text":607,"start_s":608,"end_s":609,"word_count":49,"indexable":180},73,"65674","Se puede, si se quiere, recapitular las concesiones que se hicieron y las decepciones que hubo, pero están ahí a la vista de todos, fue ampliamente informado.",504.72,510.92,{"idx":611,"utterance_id":612,"speaker_name":205,"text":613,"start_s":614,"end_s":615,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},74,"65675","¿Está empezando a caer la ficha?",510.98,513.7,{"idx":617,"utterance_id":618,"speaker_name":205,"text":619,"start_s":620,"end_s":621,"word_count":171,"indexable":180},75,"65676","Sí, porque el gobierno de Bolsonaro abandonó esa hostilidad gratuita que venía manifestando en la campaña e incluso en el gobierno respecto a China y caminó hacia una aproximación, hacia una normalización de la relación con China.",513.76,528.12,{"idx":623,"utterance_id":624,"speaker_name":205,"text":625,"start_s":626,"end_s":627,"word_count":282,"indexable":180},76,"65677","El primer vicepresidente fue allí, Mourão, después el propio presidente visitó China y ahora en la cumbre de los BRICS.",528.88,534.3,{"idx":629,"utterance_id":630,"speaker_name":205,"text":631,"start_s":632,"end_s":633,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},77,"65678","Hubo una nueva aproximación.",534.96,536.44,{"idx":635,"utterance_id":636,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":637,"start_s":638,"end_s":639,"word_count":252,"indexable":180},78,"65679","Antes de eso hizo una provocación barata a Taiwán, demostrando simpatía por Taiwán.",536.92,542.44,{"idx":641,"utterance_id":642,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":643,"start_s":644,"end_s":645,"word_count":247,"indexable":180},79,"65680","Algo que ya generó un malestar por el amateurismo, por la causa.",543.34,548.3,{"idx":647,"utterance_id":648,"speaker_name":205,"text":649,"start_s":650,"end_s":651,"word_count":252,"indexable":180},80,"65681","Eso fue en 2018, cuando él era precandidato, ya con grandes intenciones de voto.",548.82,553.36,{"idx":653,"utterance_id":654,"speaker_name":205,"text":655,"start_s":656,"end_s":657,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},81,"65682","Y fue allí a visitar Taiwán.",554.12,555.38,{"idx":659,"utterance_id":660,"speaker_name":205,"text":661,"start_s":662,"end_s":663,"word_count":260,"indexable":180},82,"65683","Mira, siempre digo cuando me preguntan sobre eso, puedes visitar Taiwán.",556.18,559.12,{"idx":665,"utterance_id":666,"speaker_name":205,"text":667,"start_s":668,"end_s":669,"word_count":182,"indexable":180},83,"65684","Claro.",559.26,559.58,{"idx":671,"utterance_id":672,"speaker_name":205,"text":673,"start_s":674,"end_s":675,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},84,"65685","Pero necesitas saber por qué estás haciendo eso.",559.9,562.36,{"idx":677,"utterance_id":678,"speaker_name":205,"text":679,"start_s":680,"end_s":681,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},85,"65686","No como una bravata, ¿no?",563.3,564.38,{"idx":683,"utterance_id":684,"speaker_name":205,"text":685,"start_s":686,"end_s":687,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},86,"65687","Porque eso es visto como gravísimo por los chinos.",564.58,568,{"idx":689,"utterance_id":690,"speaker_name":205,"text":691,"start_s":692,"end_s":693,"word_count":9,"indexable":180},87,"65688","Trump, que es Trump, aceptó una llamada telefónica de la primera ministra de Taiwán y fue un alboroto, un problema en las relaciones entre Estados Unidos y China.",569.08,579.84,{"idx":695,"utterance_id":696,"speaker_name":205,"text":697,"start_s":698,"end_s":699,"word_count":282,"indexable":180},88,"65689","Entonces fue una decisión muy amateur, en mi entender, lo de visitar Taiwán sin saber por qué, sin evaluar las consecuencias.",580.58,589.12,{"idx":701,"utterance_id":702,"speaker_name":205,"text":703,"start_s":704,"end_s":705,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},89,"65690","Pero desde entonces... El gobierno va aprendiendo, va aprendiendo, va cayendo la ficha.",589.74,594.2,{"idx":707,"utterance_id":708,"speaker_name":205,"text":709,"start_s":710,"end_s":711,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},90,"65691","Y te diría lo siguiente...",595.1,595.98,{"idx":713,"utterance_id":714,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":715,"start_s":716,"end_s":717,"word_count":260,"indexable":180},91,"65692","Aprende de un lado y desaprende de otro, como hemos visto.",596.02,599.16,{"idx":719,"utterance_id":720,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":721,"start_s":722,"end_s":723,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},92,"65693","Pero en fin, hablemos de ese lado.",599.38,600.82,{"idx":725,"utterance_id":726,"speaker_name":205,"text":727,"start_s":728,"end_s":729,"word_count":239,"indexable":180},93,"65694","Al menos en ese aspecto, creo que quedó claro, espero que haya quedado claro que... Mira, yo necesité 11 meses, no 10 meses, porque quien conoce... Viví 8 años en Estados Unidos, lo digo hasta en mi libro.",600.86,614.9,{"idx":731,"utterance_id":732,"speaker_name":205,"text":733,"start_s":734,"end_s":735,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},94,"65695","¿Qué noté, entre otras cosas?",615.46,617.2,{"idx":737,"utterance_id":738,"speaker_name":205,"text":739,"start_s":740,"end_s":741,"word_count":247,"indexable":180},95,"65696","Los estadounidenses tratan con indiferencia e incluso desprecio a sus satélites.",617.96,623.58,{"idx":743,"utterance_id":744,"speaker_name":205,"text":745,"start_s":746,"end_s":747,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},96,"65697","Vi eso en el Fondo Monetario, lo vi en el G20.",623.88,625.5,{"idx":749,"utterance_id":750,"speaker_name":205,"text":751,"start_s":752,"end_s":753,"word_count":245,"indexable":180},97,"65698","No quiero citar nombres de países para no ofender a nadie, pero Brasil en esa época no era eso.",626.76,630.52,{"idx":755,"utterance_id":756,"speaker_name":205,"text":757,"start_s":758,"end_s":759,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},98,"65699","Y observaba la relación estadounidense con sus satélites.",631.2,633.68,{"idx":761,"utterance_id":762,"speaker_name":205,"text":763,"start_s":764,"end_s":765,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},99,"65700","Incluso algunos países desarrollados que se comportan como satélites estadounidenses.",633.76,637.3,{"idx":767,"utterance_id":768,"speaker_name":205,"text":769,"start_s":770,"end_s":771,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},100,"65701","Entonces, cuando vi...",637.38,639.58,{"idx":773,"utterance_id":774,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":775,"start_s":776,"end_s":777,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},101,"65702","En realidad prestas atención a quien te causa problemas.",639.86,642.3,{"idx":779,"utterance_id":780,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":781,"start_s":782,"end_s":783,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},102,"65703","Si un país no causa ningún problema.",643.32,646.02,{"idx":785,"utterance_id":786,"speaker_name":205,"text":787,"start_s":788,"end_s":789,"word_count":15,"indexable":180},103,"65704","Te diré más, no son solo los estadounidenses los que no prestan atención; los otros países desprecian las opiniones de países que son vistos como alineados con Estados Unidos o con China.",647.3,657.14,{"idx":791,"utterance_id":792,"speaker_name":205,"text":793,"start_s":794,"end_s":795,"word_count":304,"indexable":180},104,"65705","Entonces Brasil solo tenía una voz activa en varios asuntos porque era visto como un actor independiente hasta hace poco.",658.46,665.38,{"idx":797,"utterance_id":798,"speaker_name":205,"text":799,"start_s":800,"end_s":801,"word_count":265,"indexable":180},105,"65706","Entonces veremos, pero creo que también tienes razón en lo siguiente: lo que dijiste bien, el sujeto ahora querrá moverse hacia China, pero la manera en que se mueve hacia China también es torpe.",666.22,678.48,{"idx":803,"utterance_id":804,"speaker_name":205,"text":805,"start_s":806,"end_s":807,"word_count":21,"indexable":180},106,"65707","Porque él está, por ejemplo, en la cumbre de los BRICS, agradeciendo repetidamente a China por haber respetado la soberanía brasileña en la cuestión de la Amazonía.",679.24,687.26,{"idx":809,"utterance_id":810,"speaker_name":205,"text":811,"start_s":812,"end_s":813,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},107,"65708","En esa controversia con Macron, con Francia.",687.7,691.52,{"idx":815,"utterance_id":816,"speaker_name":205,"text":817,"start_s":818,"end_s":819,"word_count":194,"indexable":180},108,"65709","Eso es lo básico: que los países importantes como Brasil tengan su soberanía respetada.",693.56,698.66,{"idx":821,"utterance_id":822,"speaker_name":205,"text":823,"start_s":824,"end_s":825,"word_count":352,"indexable":180},109,"65710","Entonces incluso en la manera en que él se aproxima de China, muestra... Eso que usted dijo no es pasar del alineamiento con Estados Unidos al alineamiento con China.",699.18,706.3,{"idx":827,"utterance_id":828,"speaker_name":205,"text":829,"start_s":830,"end_s":831,"word_count":426,"indexable":180},110,"65711","Es no alinearse con nadie, porque Brasil tiene una magnitud, es un país de una importancia que al resto del mundo hasta le extraña cuando ve a Brasil alinearse automáticamente con otro país, sea China o Estados Unidos.",706.86,718.54,{"idx":833,"utterance_id":834,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":835,"start_s":836,"end_s":837,"word_count":276,"indexable":180},111,"65712","Precisamente porque la independencia es un activo en el mercado internacional, por así decirlo, político y económico.",719.14,725.14,{"idx":839,"utterance_id":840,"speaker_name":205,"text":841,"start_s":842,"end_s":843,"word_count":403,"indexable":180},112,"65713","Una cosa muy importante, por eso elegí ese título en mi libro Brasil no cabe en el patio de nadie: el brasileño olvida que Brasil forma parte de una lista, de un grupo de apenas cinco países.",725.78,735.64,{"idx":845,"utterance_id":846,"speaker_name":205,"text":847,"start_s":848,"end_s":849,"word_count":49,"indexable":180},113,"65714","Solo cinco países en todo el mundo forman parte al mismo tiempo de la lista de los diez mayores PIB, de los diez mayores territorios, de las diez mayores poblaciones.",736.46,744.6,{"idx":851,"utterance_id":852,"speaker_name":205,"text":853,"start_s":854,"end_s":855,"word_count":254,"indexable":180},114,"65715","Esos cinco países son Estados Unidos, Brasil, Rusia, India y China.",745.22,747.66,{"idx":857,"utterance_id":858,"speaker_name":205,"text":859,"start_s":860,"end_s":861,"word_count":282,"indexable":180},115,"65716","Entonces Brasil es una de las potencias del mundo y no puede comportarse como si fuera un país pequeño.",748.44,754.58,{"idx":863,"utterance_id":864,"speaker_name":205,"text":865,"start_s":866,"end_s":867,"word_count":304,"indexable":180},116,"65717","Votó ahora, por ejemplo: ¿cómo puede Brasil votar en contra de la resolución de la ONU que condena el embargo a Cuba?",755.52,762.24,{"idx":869,"utterance_id":870,"speaker_name":205,"text":871,"start_s":872,"end_s":873,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},117,"65718","187 países votaron a favor, dos se abstuvieron, Colombia y Ucrania, y tres votaron en contra.",762.26,770,{"idx":875,"utterance_id":876,"speaker_name":205,"text":877,"start_s":878,"end_s":879,"word_count":21,"indexable":180},118,"65719","Estados Unidos, por supuesto, Israel, que depende estructuralmente de Estados Unidos, inclusive desde el punto de vista presupuestario y político, y Brasil gratuitamente.",770.58,778.44,{"idx":881,"utterance_id":882,"speaker_name":205,"text":883,"start_s":884,"end_s":885,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},119,"65720","Micronesia votó a favor de la resolución.",780.8,783.34,{"idx":887,"utterance_id":888,"speaker_name":205,"text":889,"start_s":890,"end_s":891,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},120,"65721","Palaos votó a favor de la resolución.",783.52,785.24,{"idx":893,"utterance_id":894,"speaker_name":205,"text":895,"start_s":896,"end_s":897,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},121,"65722","Vanuatu votó a favor de la resolución.",786.16,787.96,{"idx":899,"utterance_id":900,"speaker_name":205,"text":901,"start_s":902,"end_s":903,"word_count":171,"indexable":180},122,"65723","Pero, ¿cómo puede Brasil, uno de los gigantes del mundo, alinearse gratuitamente con una decisión odiosa, condenada por amplia mayoría de la comunidad internacional, que es ese embargo que se agravó, incluso en el pasado reciente, contra Cuba?",788.14,799.8,{"idx":905,"utterance_id":906,"speaker_name":205,"text":907,"start_s":908,"end_s":909,"word_count":196,"indexable":180},123,"65724","Se agravó mucho.",800.22,801.02,{"idx":911,"utterance_id":912,"speaker_name":205,"text":913,"start_s":914,"end_s":915,"word_count":182,"indexable":180},124,"65725","Mucho.",801.1,801.46,{"idx":917,"utterance_id":918,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":919,"start_s":920,"end_s":921,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},125,"65726","Con Trump se agravó demasiado.",801.86,803.16,{"idx":923,"utterance_id":924,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":925,"start_s":926,"end_s":927,"word_count":260,"indexable":180},126,"65727","Invocaron un capítulo de la ley del embargo que nunca había sido activado.",803.7,808.74,{"idx":929,"utterance_id":930,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":931,"start_s":932,"end_s":933,"word_count":252,"indexable":180},127,"65728","Es decir, endurecieron el embargo, incluso respecto al origen de las medidas contra Cuba.",810.66,819.16,{"idx":935,"utterance_id":936,"speaker_name":205,"text":937,"start_s":938,"end_s":939,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},128,"65729","Entonces, la situación empeoró mucho.",819.34,820.84,{"idx":941,"utterance_id":942,"speaker_name":205,"text":943,"start_s":944,"end_s":945,"word_count":247,"indexable":180},129,"65730","Esto no tiene nada que ver con simpatías ideológicas hacia Cuba.",820.88,823.62,{"idx":947,"utterance_id":948,"speaker_name":205,"text":949,"start_s":950,"end_s":951,"word_count":234,"indexable":180},130,"65731","187 países de las más variadas tendencias condenaron el embargo.",823.64,827.82,{"idx":953,"utterance_id":954,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":955,"start_s":956,"end_s":957,"word_count":247,"indexable":180},131,"65732","Brasil puede prescindir del Mercosur, puede prescindir de pactos regionales.",829.06,835.8,{"idx":959,"utterance_id":960,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":961,"start_s":962,"end_s":963,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},132,"65733","¿Tiene el tamaño para prescindir de eso?",836.6,838.62,{"idx":965,"utterance_id":966,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":967,"start_s":968,"end_s":969,"word_count":194,"indexable":180},133,"65734","¿O usted cree que eso exigiría de nuestra parte una reflexión sobre la integración en nuevos moldes?",839.3,845.28,{"idx":62,"utterance_id":971,"speaker_name":205,"text":972,"start_s":973,"end_s":974,"word_count":254,"indexable":180},"65735","Brasil es tan grande que podría, en el límite, prescindir de eso.",845.66,848.46,{"idx":976,"utterance_id":977,"speaker_name":205,"text":978,"start_s":979,"end_s":980,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},135,"65736","Pero no tiene por qué prescindir.",848.72,850.12,{"idx":982,"utterance_id":983,"speaker_name":205,"text":984,"start_s":985,"end_s":986,"word_count":426,"indexable":180},136,"65737","En el gobierno de Lula, y ya antes en realidad, pero que se profundizó y continuó en el gobierno de Dilma, hubo todo un esfuerzo por crear un ambiente de unión en América del Sur, principalmente, pero también en América Latina en general.",851.96,868.58,{"idx":988,"utterance_id":989,"speaker_name":205,"text":990,"start_s":991,"end_s":992,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},137,"65738","Y ese esfuerzo fue importante.",869.68,871.42,{"idx":994,"utterance_id":995,"speaker_name":205,"text":996,"start_s":997,"end_s":998,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},138,"65739","No es fácil, ¿eh, Fernando?",871.46,872.82,{"idx":51,"utterance_id":1000,"speaker_name":205,"text":1001,"start_s":1002,"end_s":1003,"word_count":265,"indexable":180},"65740","Porque solía decir, en la época en que Lula era presidente, en voz baja, que si Lula era el líder de América Latina, era un líder con pocos seguidores, porque nadie seguía el modelo Lula de política internacional.",872.88,887,{"idx":1005,"utterance_id":1006,"speaker_name":205,"text":1007,"start_s":1008,"end_s":1009,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},140,"65741","Es verdad.",887.06,887.42,{"idx":1011,"utterance_id":1012,"speaker_name":205,"text":1013,"start_s":1014,"end_s":1015,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},141,"65742","Que era un modelo centrista, reformista.",887.72,889.66,{"idx":1017,"utterance_id":1018,"speaker_name":205,"text":1019,"start_s":1020,"end_s":1021,"word_count":252,"indexable":180},142,"65743","Había dos grupos de países en América Latina: los satélites de Estados Unidos.",890.1,894.2,{"idx":1023,"utterance_id":1024,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1025,"start_s":1026,"end_s":1027,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},143,"65744","Alineados automáticamente.",894.78,896.28,{"idx":1029,"utterance_id":1030,"speaker_name":205,"text":1031,"start_s":1032,"end_s":1033,"word_count":196,"indexable":180},144,"65745","Y los bolivarianos.",896.4,897.38,{"idx":1035,"utterance_id":1036,"speaker_name":205,"text":1037,"start_s":1038,"end_s":1039,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},145,"65746","Desalineados automáticamente.",898.08,899.58,{"idx":1041,"utterance_id":1042,"speaker_name":205,"text":1043,"start_s":1044,"end_s":1045,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},146,"65747","Una retórica contraproducente: los bolivianos y los kirchneristas.",900.22,904.18,{"idx":1047,"utterance_id":1048,"speaker_name":205,"text":1049,"start_s":1050,"end_s":1051,"word_count":380,"indexable":180},147,"65748","Brasil es grande, sí, puede prescindir de alianzas regionales cuando sea necesario, pero maximizará su capacidad de defender los intereses nacionales y de actuar por un mundo mejor si actúa en alianza.",904.74,918.38,{"idx":1053,"utterance_id":1054,"speaker_name":205,"text":1055,"start_s":1056,"end_s":1057,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},148,"65749","Y nosotros sabemos hacerlo.",918.42,919.58,{"idx":39,"utterance_id":1059,"speaker_name":205,"text":1060,"start_s":1061,"end_s":1062,"word_count":260,"indexable":180},"65750","Tenemos uno de los mejores servicios diplomáticos del mundo, que es el Itamaraty.",920.36,924.06,{"idx":1064,"utterance_id":1065,"speaker_name":205,"text":1066,"start_s":1067,"end_s":1068,"word_count":196,"indexable":180},150,"65751","Tenemos una tradición.",924.14,924.98,{"idx":1070,"utterance_id":1071,"speaker_name":205,"text":1072,"start_s":1073,"end_s":1074,"word_count":282,"indexable":180},151,"65752","Entonces Brasil tiene que... tiene que enfocarse en la alianza en América del Sur y en América Latina.",925.68,931.38,{"idx":1076,"utterance_id":1077,"speaker_name":205,"text":1078,"start_s":1079,"end_s":1080,"word_count":247,"indexable":180},152,"65753","Hay mucho espacio para actuar en América Central y el Caribe también.",932.12,935.42,{"idx":1082,"utterance_id":1083,"speaker_name":205,"text":1084,"start_s":1085,"end_s":1086,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},153,"65754","¿Hay espacio?",936.14,936.68,{"idx":1088,"utterance_id":1089,"speaker_name":205,"text":1090,"start_s":1091,"end_s":1092,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},154,"65755","Sí, lo noté en el fondo monetario.",936.8,938.52,{"idx":1094,"utterance_id":1095,"speaker_name":205,"text":1096,"start_s":1097,"end_s":1098,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},155,"65756","Algo que no es muy de nuestra tradición.",939,940.76,{"idx":1100,"utterance_id":1101,"speaker_name":205,"text":1102,"start_s":1103,"end_s":1104,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},156,"65757","No lo es, pero existe.",940.86,941.64,{"idx":1106,"utterance_id":1107,"speaker_name":205,"text":1108,"start_s":1109,"end_s":1110,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},157,"65758","Brasil tiene una enorme proyección.",942.1,944.92,{"idx":1112,"utterance_id":1113,"speaker_name":205,"text":1114,"start_s":1115,"end_s":1116,"word_count":234,"indexable":180},158,"65759","México ahora ha evolucionado hacia un gobierno de centroizquierda.",945.3,947.74,{"idx":1118,"utterance_id":1119,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1120,"start_s":1121,"end_s":1122,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},159,"65760","¿Y cree usted que deberíamos tener el radar encendido para México también?",947.88,951.42,{"idx":1124,"utterance_id":1125,"speaker_name":205,"text":1126,"start_s":1127,"end_s":1128,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},160,"65761","Mire, México es...",951.74,952.52,{"idx":1130,"utterance_id":1131,"speaker_name":205,"text":1132,"start_s":1133,"end_s":1134,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},161,"65762","Porque México es...",952.64,953.22,{"idx":1136,"utterance_id":1137,"speaker_name":205,"text":1138,"start_s":1139,"end_s":1140,"word_count":171,"indexable":180},162,"65763","Mi experiencia con los mexicanos no fue de las mejores en el periodo en que estuve allí, pero después de que me fui de allí ocurrieron dos cosas importantísimas que alteran, creo, quizá, su posicionamiento respecto a México.",954.04,968.58,{"idx":1142,"utterance_id":1143,"speaker_name":205,"text":1144,"start_s":1145,"end_s":1146,"word_count":15,"indexable":180},163,"65764","La elección de Trump en Estados Unidos, con actitudes truculentas que muestran el peligro que representaba la opción mexicana por el alineamiento automático histórico a largo plazo, y la elección de López Obrador.",968.64,983,{"idx":1148,"utterance_id":1149,"speaker_name":205,"text":1150,"start_s":1151,"end_s":1152,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},164,"65765","Entonces creo que hay un espacio allí.",983.42,984.9,{"idx":1154,"utterance_id":1155,"speaker_name":205,"text":1156,"start_s":1157,"end_s":1158,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},165,"65766","Pero también en África.",985.48,987.7,{"idx":1160,"utterance_id":1161,"speaker_name":205,"text":1162,"start_s":1163,"end_s":1164,"word_count":234,"indexable":180},166,"65767","África mira a Brasil con gran interés.",987.8,990.84,{"idx":1166,"utterance_id":1167,"speaker_name":205,"text":1168,"start_s":1169,"end_s":1170,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},167,"65768","Y se pelean por él.",993.9,994.34,{"idx":1172,"utterance_id":1173,"speaker_name":205,"text":1174,"start_s":1175,"end_s":1176,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},168,"65769","Entonces le diría que Brasil tiene que actuar simultáneamente en varias frentes.",995.54,999.28,{"idx":1178,"utterance_id":1179,"speaker_name":205,"text":1180,"start_s":1181,"end_s":1182,"word_count":194,"indexable":180},169,"65770","Y tiene que mantener una buena relación con Europa, con Estados Unidos y demás.",1000.56,1003.1,{"idx":1184,"utterance_id":1185,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1186,"start_s":1187,"end_s":1188,"word_count":352,"indexable":180},170,"65771","Es decir, mirar a los iguales, tanto en África como en Oriente Medio, eventualmente en América Latina, está lejos de ser... tercer-mundismo; eso es propio del complejo de inferioridad.",1003.32,1016.78,{"idx":1190,"utterance_id":1191,"speaker_name":205,"text":1192,"start_s":1193,"end_s":1194,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},171,"65772","No es tercer-mundismo.",1016.86,1018.36,{"idx":1196,"utterance_id":1197,"speaker_name":205,"text":1198,"start_s":1199,"end_s":1200,"word_count":304,"indexable":180},172,"65773","Brasil debe tener una actuación global acorde con su tamaño y con lo que se espera de Brasil.",1019.66,1026.3,{"idx":1202,"utterance_id":1203,"speaker_name":205,"text":1204,"start_s":1205,"end_s":1206,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},173,"65774","Lo que está ocurriendo hoy, a mi entender, provoca perplejidad en el resto del mundo.",1028,1032.58,{"idx":1208,"utterance_id":1209,"speaker_name":205,"text":1210,"start_s":1211,"end_s":1212,"word_count":252,"indexable":180},174,"65775","Ese no es el Brasil que la gente se acostumbró a conocer en las últimas décadas.",1033.3,1036.86,{"idx":1214,"utterance_id":1215,"speaker_name":205,"text":1216,"start_s":1217,"end_s":1218,"word_count":247,"indexable":180},175,"65776","Brasil es un país que irradiaba conciliación, simpatía, diálogo, paz.",1038.04,1042.56,{"idx":1220,"utterance_id":1221,"speaker_name":205,"text":1222,"start_s":1223,"end_s":1224,"word_count":194,"indexable":180},176,"65777","No era un país con una política exterior fuertemente ideológica, contrariamente a lo que se dice actualmente.",1044.2,1049.56,{"idx":1226,"utterance_id":1227,"speaker_name":205,"text":1228,"start_s":1229,"end_s":1230,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},177,"65778","Era una política exterior predominantemente pragmática.",1050.2,1052.86,{"idx":45,"utterance_id":1232,"speaker_name":205,"text":1233,"start_s":1234,"end_s":1235,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},"65779","A partir de principios y valores, pero pragmática.",1054.12,1057.2,{"idx":1237,"utterance_id":1238,"speaker_name":205,"text":1239,"start_s":1240,"end_s":1241,"word_count":254,"indexable":180},179,"65780","Por ejemplo, Brasil era amigo de Israel y también de los árabes.",1058.16,1064.64,{"idx":1243,"utterance_id":1244,"speaker_name":205,"text":1245,"start_s":1246,"end_s":1247,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},180,"65781","Nunca tomó partido en ese conflicto.",1064.74,1066.74,{"idx":1249,"utterance_id":1250,"speaker_name":205,"text":1251,"start_s":1252,"end_s":1253,"word_count":196,"indexable":180},181,"65782","Tenemos poblaciones...",1067,1068.38,{"idx":1255,"utterance_id":1256,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1257,"start_s":1258,"end_s":1259,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},182,"65783","Y nunca se omitió tampoco.",1068.76,1070.14,{"idx":1261,"utterance_id":1262,"speaker_name":205,"text":1263,"start_s":1264,"end_s":1265,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},183,"65784","Nunca se omitió cuando tuvo que actuar.",1070.24,1072.34,{"idx":1267,"utterance_id":1268,"speaker_name":205,"text":1269,"start_s":1270,"end_s":1271,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},184,"65785","Actuaba, pero con equilibrio.",1072.38,1074.1,{"idx":1273,"utterance_id":1274,"speaker_name":205,"text":1275,"start_s":1276,"end_s":1277,"word_count":282,"indexable":180},185,"65786","Cuando tenía que condenar los abusos, por ejemplo contra los palestinos, lo hacía, pero sin declararse hostil a Israel.",1074.14,1080.86,{"idx":1279,"utterance_id":1280,"speaker_name":205,"text":1281,"start_s":1282,"end_s":1283,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},186,"65787","Del mismo modo, no tiene ningún sentido que usted imite a Trump, que trasladó la embajada.",1081.52,1086.84,{"idx":1285,"utterance_id":1286,"speaker_name":205,"text":1287,"start_s":1288,"end_s":1289,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},187,"65788","a Jerusalén, creando un trastorno totalmente decisivo.",1087.46,1089.98,{"idx":1291,"utterance_id":1292,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1293,"start_s":1294,"end_s":1295,"word_count":247,"indexable":180},188,"65789","De nuevo, dos o tres países del mundo siguiendo esa orientación.",1090.02,1092.52,{"idx":1297,"utterance_id":1298,"speaker_name":205,"text":1299,"start_s":1300,"end_s":1301,"word_count":247,"indexable":180},189,"65790","Estados Unidos, si no me equivoco, Nicaragua y Brasil.",1092.56,1094.78,{"idx":11,"utterance_id":1303,"speaker_name":205,"text":1304,"start_s":1305,"end_s":1306,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},"65791","Pero entonces Brasil retrocedió, afortunadamente.",1094.86,1096.74,{"idx":1308,"utterance_id":1309,"speaker_name":205,"text":1310,"start_s":1311,"end_s":1312,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},191,"65792","Bolsonaro volvió atrás.",1097.8,1098.88,{"idx":1314,"utterance_id":1315,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1316,"start_s":1317,"end_s":1318,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},192,"65793","Pero vuelve a hablar, de vez en cuando, sobre el asunto.",1098.92,1101.5,{"idx":1320,"utterance_id":1321,"speaker_name":205,"text":1322,"start_s":1323,"end_s":1324,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},193,"65794","Ahora se convirtió en una oficina de representación en Jerusalén.",1101.56,1104.58,{"idx":1326,"utterance_id":1327,"speaker_name":205,"text":1328,"start_s":1329,"end_s":1330,"word_count":187,"indexable":180},194,"65795","Pero, por el momento, abandonó esa idea estrafalaria de acompañar a los americanos en la transferencia de la embajada a Jerusalén.",1104.76,1112.54,{"idx":1332,"utterance_id":1333,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1334,"start_s":1335,"end_s":1336,"word_count":260,"indexable":180},195,"65796","¿Qué tan verdadera es la agenda ambiental y de derechos humanos en el escenario internacional?",1113.5,1119.68,{"idx":1338,"utterance_id":1339,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1340,"start_s":1341,"end_s":1342,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},196,"65797","¿Cuánto pesa de hecho?",1120.18,1121.78,{"idx":56,"utterance_id":1344,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1345,"start_s":1346,"end_s":1347,"word_count":234,"indexable":180},"65798","¿Cuánto es audaz para torpedear adversarios circunstanciales?",1121.96,1128.38,{"idx":1349,"utterance_id":1350,"speaker_name":205,"text":1351,"start_s":1352,"end_s":1353,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},198,"65799","Buena pregunta.",1130.48,1131.2,{"idx":1355,"utterance_id":1356,"speaker_name":205,"text":1357,"start_s":1358,"end_s":1359,"word_count":254,"indexable":180},199,"65800","Una pregunta que no es fácil de responder porque hay una mezcla ahí.",1131.62,1134.42,{"idx":1361,"utterance_id":1362,"speaker_name":205,"text":1363,"start_s":1364,"end_s":1365,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},200,"65801","Incluso uso en el libro la expresión proteccionismo políticamente correcto.",1135.16,1138.66,{"idx":1367,"utterance_id":1368,"speaker_name":205,"text":1369,"start_s":1370,"end_s":1371,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},201,"65802","Buena expresión.",1138.74,1141.32,{"idx":1373,"utterance_id":1374,"speaker_name":205,"text":1375,"start_s":1376,"end_s":1377,"word_count":234,"indexable":180},202,"65803","Que es lo que usted está diciendo en realidad.",1142.38,1144.08,{"idx":1379,"utterance_id":1380,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1381,"start_s":1382,"end_s":1383,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},203,"65804","Eso es, fue apenas un pretexto.",1144.12,1145.98,{"idx":1385,"utterance_id":1386,"speaker_name":205,"text":1387,"start_s":1388,"end_s":1389,"word_count":15,"indexable":180},204,"65805","Creo que es una agenda frente a la que no podemos adoptar una actitud burda, no se puede confrontar esa agenda ambientalista de derechos humanos de manera tosca, como lo ha hecho el gobierno actual.",1146.22,1156.1,{"idx":1391,"utterance_id":1392,"speaker_name":205,"text":1393,"start_s":1394,"end_s":1395,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},205,"65806","Obvio, ¿no?",1156.54,1156.92,{"idx":1397,"utterance_id":1398,"speaker_name":205,"text":1399,"start_s":1400,"end_s":1401,"word_count":403,"indexable":180},206,"65807","Porque tenemos que respetar el hecho de que existe una preocupación real en muchos sectores de la sociedad, de otros países, por el medio ambiente, por los derechos humanos, por las consecuencias internacionales de lo que se hace en el área ambiental.",1157.76,1170.92,{"idx":1403,"utterance_id":1404,"speaker_name":205,"text":1405,"start_s":1406,"end_s":1407,"word_count":234,"indexable":180},207,"65808","Los spillovers hacia otros países, tenemos que respetarlos.",1171.66,1174.56,{"idx":1409,"utterance_id":1410,"speaker_name":205,"text":1411,"start_s":1412,"end_s":1413,"word_count":194,"indexable":180},208,"65809","Al mismo tiempo, tenemos que tener cautela, porque ese discurso simpático es manipulado por intereses.",1175.2,1181.98,{"idx":1415,"utterance_id":1416,"speaker_name":205,"text":1417,"start_s":1418,"end_s":1419,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},209,"65810","Es manipulado por intereses económicos, intereses políticos.",1183.04,1186.64,{"idx":1421,"utterance_id":1422,"speaker_name":205,"text":1423,"start_s":1424,"end_s":1425,"word_count":304,"indexable":180},210,"65811","Entonces, tenemos que tener, respecto al ámbito multilateral, una actitud abierta, cooperativa, pero con escepticismo, examinando cada paso.",1187.66,1195.18,{"idx":1427,"utterance_id":1428,"speaker_name":205,"text":1429,"start_s":1430,"end_s":1431,"word_count":187,"indexable":180},211,"65812","Por eso me preocupa, por ejemplo, cuando veo el discurso reciente de Bolsonaro en la ONU.",1195.32,1200.54,{"idx":1433,"utterance_id":1434,"speaker_name":205,"text":1435,"start_s":1436,"end_s":1437,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},212,"65813","Dijo algunas verdades, incluso algunas verdades importantes.",1201.74,1205.5,{"idx":1439,"utterance_id":1440,"speaker_name":205,"text":1441,"start_s":1442,"end_s":1443,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},213,"65814","La Amazonía no es patrimonio de la humanidad.",1206.46,1208.3,{"idx":1445,"utterance_id":1446,"speaker_name":205,"text":1447,"start_s":1448,"end_s":1449,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},214,"65815","La Amazonía no es el pulmón del mundo.",1208.46,1211.54,{"idx":1451,"utterance_id":1452,"speaker_name":205,"text":1453,"start_s":1454,"end_s":1455,"word_count":397,"indexable":180},215,"65816","Pero esas verdades, esos puntos importantes están mezclados con cosas tan toscas, tan primitivas, que mi preocupación es que eso contamine ciertas ideas centrales que él expuso allí, que son valiosas y que tenemos que defender.",1211.76,1224.28,{"idx":1457,"utterance_id":1458,"speaker_name":205,"text":1459,"start_s":1460,"end_s":1461,"word_count":245,"indexable":180},216,"65817","Sí, la Amazonía no es patrimonio de la humanidad, es patrimonio de los países de la cuenca amazónica, notablemente Brasil.",1224.66,1230.8,{"idx":1463,"utterance_id":1464,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1465,"start_s":1466,"end_s":1467,"word_count":252,"indexable":180},217,"65818","Ahora, eso significa decir que, aunque eso sirva de pretexto para lo políticamente correcto,",1233.84,1243.12,{"idx":1469,"utterance_id":1470,"speaker_name":205,"text":1471,"start_s":1472,"end_s":1473,"word_count":196,"indexable":180},218,"65819","que es, en",1244.28,1245.98,{"idx":1475,"utterance_id":1476,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1477,"start_s":1478,"end_s":1479,"word_count":49,"indexable":180},219,"65820","parte, una manipulación, pero las declaraciones del gobierno brasileño sobre medio ambiente, sobre derechos humanos, por ejemplo, tuvimos a tres autoridades, entre comillas, del gobierno,",1246.14,1257.94,{"idx":1481,"utterance_id":1482,"speaker_name":205,"text":1483,"start_s":1484,"end_s":1485,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},220,"65821","el hijo",1258.12,1258.54,{"idx":1487,"utterance_id":1488,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1489,"start_s":1490,"end_s":1491,"word_count":187,"indexable":180},221,"65822","del presidente, el general todoterreno del presidente, Heleno, y ahora Guedes hablando del AI-5.",1258.58,1266.7,{"idx":1493,"utterance_id":1494,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1495,"start_s":1496,"end_s":1497,"word_count":232,"indexable":180},222,"65823","Creo que la mayoría de los brasileños ni sabe lo que es el AI-5, porque es una cosa de... Estamos hablando de algo de 1968.",1266.74,1272.94,{"idx":1499,"utterance_id":1500,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1501,"start_s":1502,"end_s":1503,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},223,"65824","Pero hablar de eso, probablemente tenga repercusión también internacional.",1275.72,1280.7,{"idx":1505,"utterance_id":1506,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1507,"start_s":1508,"end_s":1509,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},224,"65825","No es solo local.",1281.16,1282.06,{"idx":1511,"utterance_id":1512,"speaker_name":205,"text":1513,"start_s":1514,"end_s":1515,"word_count":196,"indexable":180},225,"65826","No, sin duda.",1282.5,1283.4,{"idx":1517,"utterance_id":1518,"speaker_name":205,"text":1519,"start_s":1520,"end_s":1521,"word_count":234,"indexable":180},226,"65827","De nuevo, Brasil es un país muy importante.",1284.08,1285.86,{"idx":1523,"utterance_id":1524,"speaker_name":205,"text":1525,"start_s":1526,"end_s":1527,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},227,"65828","Entonces, cuando el presidente de la República, ministros importantes, dicen cosas toscas, incluso caricaturescas, eso repercute.",1286.56,1293.86,{"idx":1529,"utterance_id":1530,"speaker_name":205,"text":1531,"start_s":1532,"end_s":1533,"word_count":473,"indexable":180},228,"65829","Repercute en los medios internacionales, repercute entre los inversionistas, y transmite la imagen de un país, no quiero usar una palabra exagerada, tal vez un país que empieza a comportarse de manera descontrolada, agrede nociones que son nociones de la civilización del siglo XXI: la preocupación por los derechos humanos, por la democracia, por el medio ambiente.",1294.4,1315.5,{"idx":17,"utterance_id":1535,"speaker_name":205,"text":1536,"start_s":1537,"end_s":1538,"word_count":239,"indexable":180},"65830","Entonces, ese retroceso brasileño en estas áreas, y tampoco quiero ser demasiado negativo, pero... parece que ningún sector del gobierno se salva, que hay una operación de los medios, el establishment brasileño, para formar un cordón sanitario alrededor de Paulo Guedes.",1316.62,1334.18,{"idx":1540,"utterance_id":1541,"speaker_name":205,"text":1542,"start_s":1543,"end_s":1544,"word_count":374,"indexable":180},230,"65831","Se intenta, se intentó también eso respecto a Moro, pero ni Paulo Guedes ni Moro ayudan a mantener ese cordón sanitario y frecuentemente muestran su profunda afinidad con el resto del gobierno.",1337.12,1347.74,{"idx":1546,"utterance_id":1547,"speaker_name":205,"text":1548,"start_s":1549,"end_s":1550,"word_count":245,"indexable":180},231,"65832","No es casualidad que Moro esté en el gobierno, no es casualidad que Guedes esté en el gobierno.",1348.5,1351.98,{"idx":1552,"utterance_id":1553,"speaker_name":205,"text":1554,"start_s":1555,"end_s":1556,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},232,"65833","No son meros adornos, ¿no?",1352.64,1353.98,{"idx":1558,"utterance_id":1559,"speaker_name":205,"text":1560,"start_s":1561,"end_s":1562,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},233,"65834","No, son, cada uno a su manera, también extremistas, ¿no?",1354.02,1357.86,{"idx":1564,"utterance_id":1565,"speaker_name":205,"text":1566,"start_s":1567,"end_s":1568,"word_count":247,"indexable":180},234,"65835","Extremistas en el ámbito del derecho, extremistas en el ámbito de la economía, ¿no?",1358.1,1362.88,{"idx":1570,"utterance_id":1571,"speaker_name":205,"text":1572,"start_s":1573,"end_s":1574,"word_count":245,"indexable":180},235,"65836","Y el extremismo en el ámbito de la economía, el ultraliberalismo, fundamentalismo de mercado, históricamente se asocia a movimientos dictatoriales.",1363.56,1372,{"idx":1576,"utterance_id":1577,"speaker_name":205,"text":1578,"start_s":1579,"end_s":1580,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},236,"65837","Lo sabemos, ¿no?",1372.44,1374.62,{"idx":1582,"utterance_id":1583,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1584,"start_s":1585,"end_s":1586,"word_count":254,"indexable":180},237,"65838","El expresidente Fernando Henrique dijo una frase, después de mucho tiempo, ¿no?",1374.66,1377.9,{"idx":1588,"utterance_id":1589,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1590,"start_s":1591,"end_s":1592,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},238,"65839","Sin grandes críticas al gobierno de Bolsonaro.",1378.6,1381,{"idx":1594,"utterance_id":1595,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1596,"start_s":1597,"end_s":1598,"word_count":551,"indexable":180},239,"65840","Cuando Guedes amenazó, a rebufo de Heleno y del hijo de Bolsonaro, con el AI-5, diciendo que dentro de poco van a pedir el AI-5 y no se sorprendan por ello, él dijo, mira, Fernando Henrique dijo una frase en contrapunto, diciendo lo siguiente: mira, el ultra-neoliberalismo, el ultra-liberalismo, la expresión que él usó, es lo que puede llevar a las personas a la calle.",1382.36,1406.4,{"idx":1600,"utterance_id":1601,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1602,"start_s":1603,"end_s":1604,"word_count":432,"indexable":180},240,"65841","Queriendo decir lo siguiente: no vengan a echar a cuenta de las fuerzas políticas de oposición una eventual pérdida de control sobre los humores de la población, que en mayo salió a las calles, por millones, a cuestionar la decisión del gobierno de Bolsonaro sobre los recortes en educación.",1407.44,1426.22,{"idx":1606,"utterance_id":1607,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1608,"start_s":1609,"end_s":1610,"word_count":276,"indexable":180},241,"65842","Y tuvo éxito, porque el gobierno de Bolsonaro se vio obligado a liberar los recursos de la educación a lo largo del año.",1427.22,1433.34,{"idx":1612,"utterance_id":1613,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1614,"start_s":1615,"end_s":1616,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},242,"65843","Sintió que iba a haber reacción.",1433.82,1436.04,{"idx":1618,"utterance_id":1619,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1620,"start_s":1621,"end_s":1622,"word_count":276,"indexable":180},243,"65844","¿Cree que las medidas de Bolsonaro pueden llevar a problemas más graves desde el punto de vista de la sociabilidad?",1437.22,1445.64,{"idx":23,"utterance_id":1624,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1625,"start_s":1626,"end_s":1627,"word_count":254,"indexable":180},"65845","Porque Chile es un país estable desde el punto de vista político.",1446.18,1450.04,{"idx":1629,"utterance_id":1630,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1631,"start_s":1632,"end_s":1633,"word_count":187,"indexable":180},245,"65846","Desde hace bastante tiempo, desde el fin de la dictadura de Pinochet, allí existe un pacto democrático que funciona.",1450.34,1457.18,{"idx":1635,"utterance_id":1636,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1637,"start_s":1638,"end_s":1639,"word_count":276,"indexable":180},246,"65847","Y eso no impide que la gente salga a las calles a protestar, al igual que en el resto de América Latina.",1457.76,1462.62,{"idx":1641,"utterance_id":1642,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1643,"start_s":1644,"end_s":1645,"word_count":245,"indexable":180},247,"65848","¿Cree que esas medidas están siendo tan radicales que pueden provocar un malestar a ese nivel?",1463.88,1470.72,{"idx":1647,"utterance_id":1648,"speaker_name":205,"text":1649,"start_s":1650,"end_s":1651,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},248,"65849","Puede, puede.",1471.04,1471.78,{"idx":1653,"utterance_id":1654,"speaker_name":205,"text":1655,"start_s":1656,"end_s":1657,"word_count":276,"indexable":180},249,"65850","Creo que esa declaración de Guedes debe entenderse en el contexto de lo que está ocurriendo en la región.",1472.38,1479.74,{"idx":1659,"utterance_id":1660,"speaker_name":205,"text":1661,"start_s":1662,"end_s":1663,"word_count":194,"indexable":180},250,"65851","Lo que está ocurriendo en México, Argentina, Chile, Ecuador, Colombia, esas turbulencias en Bolivia, están asustando.",1481.5,1490.9,{"idx":1665,"utterance_id":1666,"speaker_name":205,"text":1667,"start_s":1668,"end_s":1669,"word_count":234,"indexable":180},251,"65852","al establishment brasileño y al gobierno de Bolsonaro en particular.",1491.52,1494.1,{"idx":1671,"utterance_id":1672,"speaker_name":205,"text":1673,"start_s":1674,"end_s":1675,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},252,"65853","Entonces, claro que el ministro de Hacienda no puede hacer lo que Guedes hizo.",1495.2,1500,{"idx":1677,"utterance_id":1678,"speaker_name":205,"text":1679,"start_s":1680,"end_s":1681,"word_count":15,"indexable":180},253,"65854","Fue cuestionado en una entrevista sobre declaraciones del expresidente Lula y decidió discutir... \"Ah, estás llamando al pueblo a la calle, entonces no se extrañen por el AI-5.\"",1500.04,1511.48,{"idx":1683,"utterance_id":1684,"speaker_name":205,"text":1685,"start_s":1686,"end_s":1687,"word_count":304,"indexable":180},254,"65855","Eso no es papel del ministro de Hacienda, o del ministro de Economía, en este caso, polemizar con los líderes de la oposición.",1512.52,1518.8,{"idx":1689,"utterance_id":1690,"speaker_name":205,"text":1691,"start_s":1692,"end_s":1693,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},255,"65856","Tiene que ser más comedido, ¿sabe?",1519.26,1520.78,{"idx":1695,"utterance_id":1696,"speaker_name":205,"text":1697,"start_s":1698,"end_s":1699,"word_count":60,"indexable":180},256,"65857","Pero entiendo que esa reacción suya fue... Fernando, te recuperé una entrevista suya en el Financial Times de febrero de este año.",1521.22,1530.5,{"idx":1701,"utterance_id":1702,"speaker_name":205,"text":1703,"start_s":1704,"end_s":1705,"word_count":403,"indexable":180},257,"65858","Dijo, entre otras perlas, que era un científico, simplemente un científico haciendo su trabajo, y que Chile, que los Chicago Boys, los economistas de Chicago, habían arreglado Chile y que Chile ahora era como Suiza.",1531.48,1547.36,{"idx":1707,"utterance_id":1708,"speaker_name":205,"text":1709,"start_s":1710,"end_s":1711,"word_count":27,"indexable":180},258,"65859","Entonces, con ese tipo de mentalidad radical y algo ciega políticamente, ciega ante los problemas de la desigualdad, de la pobreza, debió haberse llevado un choque al ver lo que pasó en Chile.",1548.66,1562.9,{"idx":1713,"utterance_id":1714,"speaker_name":205,"text":1715,"start_s":1716,"end_s":1717,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},259,"65860","Poco después.",1563.18,1563.82,{"idx":1719,"utterance_id":1720,"speaker_name":205,"text":1715,"start_s":1721,"end_s":1722,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},260,"65861",1563.92,1564.58,{"idx":1724,"utterance_id":1725,"speaker_name":205,"text":1726,"start_s":1727,"end_s":1728,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},261,"65862","La contestación al modelo que él pregonaba.",1565.44,1568.24,{"idx":1730,"utterance_id":1731,"speaker_name":205,"text":1732,"start_s":1733,"end_s":1734,"word_count":187,"indexable":180},262,"65863","Recuerda que él quería implantar en Brasil el sistema de pensiones con capitalización individual, que era el modelo chileno.",1568.34,1575.46,{"idx":1736,"utterance_id":1737,"speaker_name":205,"text":1738,"start_s":1739,"end_s":1740,"word_count":254,"indexable":180},263,"65864","aplicado en 1980-81, durante el gobierno de Pinochet, durante la dictadura militar.",1576.72,1582.16,{"idx":1742,"utterance_id":1743,"speaker_name":205,"text":1744,"start_s":1745,"end_s":1746,"word_count":194,"indexable":180},264,"65865","Entonces hay una asociación problemática entre fundamentalismo de mercado y represión, que varias personas están notando.",1583.56,1591.74,{"idx":1748,"utterance_id":1749,"speaker_name":205,"text":1750,"start_s":1751,"end_s":1752,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},265,"65866","Y esa declaración de Guedes se inscribe en eso.",1592.2,1594.36,{"idx":1754,"utterance_id":1755,"speaker_name":205,"text":1756,"start_s":1757,"end_s":1758,"word_count":276,"indexable":180},266,"65867","Pero también veo que Bolsonaro está pisando un poco el freno, se está dando cuenta de lo que está pasando.",1595.08,1603.88,{"idx":1760,"utterance_id":1761,"speaker_name":205,"text":1762,"start_s":1763,"end_s":1764,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},267,"65868","Están tomando dos medidas.",1603.92,1605.74,{"idx":1766,"utterance_id":1767,"speaker_name":205,"text":1768,"start_s":1769,"end_s":1770,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},268,"65869","Están tomando medidas represivas, eximente de ilicitud, injerencia, ¿no?",1606.34,1612.56,{"idx":1772,"utterance_id":1773,"speaker_name":205,"text":1774,"start_s":1775,"end_s":1776,"word_count":182,"indexable":180},269,"65870","Injerencia.",1613.24,1613.56,{"idx":1778,"utterance_id":1779,"speaker_name":205,"text":1780,"start_s":1781,"end_s":1782,"word_count":179,"indexable":180},270,"65871","Y esas declaraciones repetidas sobre el AI-5, casi como intentando asustar a la oposición, ¿no?",1613.92,1621.58,{"idx":1784,"utterance_id":1785,"speaker_name":205,"text":1786,"start_s":1787,"end_s":1788,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},271,"65872","Quédense tranquilos, porque si no, viene la dictadura, ¿no?",1622.3,1625.52,{"idx":1790,"utterance_id":1791,"speaker_name":205,"text":1792,"start_s":1793,"end_s":1794,"word_count":203,"indexable":180},272,"65873","Eso es un lado.",1626.58,1627.12,{"idx":1796,"utterance_id":1797,"speaker_name":205,"text":1798,"start_s":1799,"end_s":1800,"word_count":247,"indexable":180},273,"65874","Pero la otra cara es que ciertas reformas se están desacelerando.",1627.16,1630.48,{"idx":1802,"utterance_id":1803,"speaker_name":205,"text":1804,"start_s":1805,"end_s":1806,"word_count":260,"indexable":180},274,"65875","Por ejemplo, Bolsonaro aplazó el envío de la reforma administrativa al Congreso.",1630.56,1636.2,{"idx":1808,"utterance_id":1809,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1810,"start_s":1811,"end_s":1812,"word_count":245,"indexable":180},275,"65876","Cuando emerge el pensamiento neoliberal en los años 80, a finales de la década aprobamos una constitución socialdemócrata.",1636.62,1644.56,{"idx":1814,"utterance_id":1815,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1816,"start_s":1817,"end_s":1818,"word_count":49,"indexable":180},276,"65877","Es decir, en el mismo momento en que las cosas se preparan para el desmantelamiento, decidimos montar nuestro Estado, entre comillas, socialdemócrata.",1645.3,1655.34,{"idx":1820,"utterance_id":1821,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1822,"start_s":1823,"end_s":1824,"word_count":352,"indexable":180},277,"65878","Y a decir verdad, durante los años 90, es decir, hasta 10, 15 años después de que la constitución fuese promulgada, efectivamente aplicamos muy poco de la Constitución, pero aplicamos.",1656.14,1668.7,{"idx":1826,"utterance_id":1827,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1828,"start_s":1829,"end_s":1830,"word_count":21,"indexable":180},278,"65879","Llegó el gobierno de Lula, aplicó, creo que fue el gobierno que más en serio se tomó lo que estaba escrito en la Constitución de 88.",1669.44,1675.92,{"idx":1832,"utterance_id":1833,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1834,"start_s":1835,"end_s":1836,"word_count":335,"indexable":180},279,"65880","Usted dice que Brasil no cabe en el patio trasero de nadie, pero yo veo a muchos economistas liberales diciendo que nuestra Constitución no encaja en nuestra economía.",1675.96,1688.02,{"idx":1838,"utterance_id":1839,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1840,"start_s":1841,"end_s":1842,"word_count":4,"indexable":180},280,"65881","Es decir, el desmantelamiento de los derechos constitucionales es un prerrequisito.",1689.86,1694.32,{"idx":1844,"utterance_id":1845,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1846,"start_s":1847,"end_s":1848,"word_count":201,"indexable":180},281,"65882","para la reanudación de nuestro desarrollo.",1695.04,1697.24,{"idx":1850,"utterance_id":1851,"speaker_name":104,"speaker_slug":103,"text":1852,"start_s":1853,"end_s":1854,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},282,"65883","Quisiera que usted explorara eso.",1697.42,1699.34,{"idx":1856,"utterance_id":1857,"speaker_name":205,"text":1858,"start_s":1859,"end_s":1860,"word_count":232,"indexable":180},283,"65884","Una variante de esa frase, que no escuché a nadie decir, pero podría haber sido dicha, es que el pueblo no cabe en el presupuesto público.",1699.38,1705.46,{"idx":1862,"utterance_id":1863,"speaker_name":205,"text":1864,"start_s":1865,"end_s":1866,"word_count":252,"indexable":180},284,"65885","En realidad, ¿qué hizo el gobierno de Lula y qué hizo también el gobierno de Dilma?",1707.42,1711.2,{"idx":1868,"utterance_id":1869,"speaker_name":205,"text":1870,"start_s":1871,"end_s":1872,"word_count":276,"indexable":180},285,"65886","Intentaron poner al pueblo dentro del presupuesto, pero simplificando al extremo, los otros siguieron ahí en ese presupuesto, los ricos.",1711.78,1721.64,{"idx":1874,"utterance_id":1875,"speaker_name":205,"text":1876,"start_s":1877,"end_s":1878,"word_count":215,"indexable":180},286,"65887","Con incentivos, con subsidios, con concesiones.",1723.18,1725.02,{"idx":1880,"utterance_id":1881,"speaker_name":205,"text":1882,"start_s":1883,"end_s":1884,"word_count":254,"indexable":180},287,"65888","Y cuando viene la crisis hay que preguntarse quién va a salir.",1725.1,1727.36,{"idx":1886,"utterance_id":1887,"speaker_name":205,"text":1888,"start_s":1889,"end_s":1890,"word_count":15,"indexable":180},288,"65889","Pues sí. Ahora vino la crisis, los recursos se volvieron más escasos y los teatros brasileños quieren expulsar al pueblo otra vez del presupuesto para continuar allí con sus incentivos, subsidios, concesiones, ventajas.",1727.58,1739,{"idx":1892,"utterance_id":1893,"speaker_name":205,"text":1894,"start_s":1895,"end_s":1896,"word_count":254,"indexable":180},289,"65890","Entonces la disputa presupuestaria es una disputa social al mismo tiempo, distributiva.",1740.04,1743.52,{"idx":1898,"utterance_id":1899,"speaker_name":205,"text":1900,"start_s":1901,"end_s":1902,"word_count":234,"indexable":180},290,"65891","Pero Brasil es un caso particular, creo.",1745.08,1747.92,{"idx":1904,"utterance_id":1905,"speaker_name":205,"text":1906,"start_s":1907,"end_s":1908,"word_count":485,"indexable":180},291,"65892","Lo que ocurrió en Estados Unidos y Europa, que estábamos intentando describir antes, es diferente, porque en Brasil, en el período en que la derecha populista ganaba espacio en Europa y en Estados Unidos, hubo un largo reinado de una especie de socialdemocracia con Lula y con Dilma.",1748.98,1765.22,{"idx":29,"utterance_id":1910,"speaker_name":205,"text":1911,"start_s":1912,"end_s":1913,"word_count":352,"indexable":180},"65893","Aunque el partido que en Brasil lleva el nombre socialdemócrata sea el PSDB, en realidad la socialdemocracia está mucho más asociada al PT, en mi opinión, en realidad.",1765.72,1775.7,{"idx":1915,"utterance_id":1916,"speaker_name":205,"text":1917,"start_s":1918,"end_s":1919,"word_count":182,"indexable":180},293,"65894","Claramente.",1776.16,1776.72,{"idx":1921,"utterance_id":1922,"speaker_name":205,"text":1923,"start_s":1924,"end_s":1925,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},294,"65895","El PSDB es una especie de nueva UDN.",1777.28,1779.08,{"idx":1927,"utterance_id":1928,"speaker_name":205,"text":1929,"start_s":1930,"end_s":1931,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},295,"65896","Mucho más que una socialdemocracia.",1779.8,1781.48,{"idx":1933,"utterance_id":1934,"speaker_name":205,"text":1935,"start_s":1936,"end_s":1937,"word_count":227,"indexable":180},296,"65897","En Brasil todo es complicado, todo es complejo.",1782.04,1784.16,{"idx":1939,"utterance_id":1940,"speaker_name":205,"text":1941,"start_s":1942,"end_s":1943,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},297,"65898","Muy bien.",1784.66,1785.06,{"idx":1945,"utterance_id":1946,"speaker_name":205,"text":1947,"start_s":1948,"end_s":1949,"word_count":189,"indexable":180},298,"65899","Gracias, Paulo.",1785.36,1786.1,{"idx":1951,"utterance_id":1952,"speaker_name":205,"text":1953,"start_s":1954,"end_s":1955,"word_count":221,"indexable":180},299,"65900","Fue un placer estar aquí con usted.",1787.02,1810.4,{"idx":1957,"utterance_id":1958,"speaker_name":205,"text":1959,"start_s":1960,"end_s":1961,"word_count":196,"indexable":180},300,"65901","Fue un placer.",1810.82,1814.68,"es",{"job_id":1964,"title":1965,"source_url":1966,"platform":1967,"content_type":1968,"published_at":1969,"duration_sec":1970,"n_classified":1971,"speakers":1972},"eb228df7-563c-4a03-a0a5-5f0ff583c800","Painel Haddad (16\u002F12\u002F2020) - Paulo Nogueira Batista","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002Fwatch?v=PH5gIZk-UIA","youtube","video","2019-12-16T23:00:10Z",1814.697563,301,[1973],{"name":104,"slug":103,"n_falas":581},"https:\u002F\u002Fi.ytimg.com\u002Fvi\u002FPH5gIZk-UIA\u002Fhqdefault.jpg"]