[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"transcript-b54e4e51-82ab-4f33-aa81-69910cbe98f0-es":3,"transcript-poster-b54e4e51-82ab-4f33-aa81-69910cbe98f0":1050,"footer-top-topics-es":1051,"footer-top-speakers-es":1101},{"falas":4,"lang":1035,"meta":1036},[5,14,21,27,34,40,46,52,58,65,71,76,82,88,94,101,108,113,118,123,130,136,141,147,154,160,166,172,178,183,190,196,201,207,213,219,225,231,237,243,249,256,265,271,277,283,288,294,300,306,312,318,324,329,335,341,347,352,358,364,370,376,382,388,394,400,406,412,418,424,430,436,442,448,454,460,466,472,478,484,490,496,502,508,514,519,525,531,537,543,549,555,561,567,573,579,585,591,597,603,609,615,621,627,633,639,645,651,657,663,669,675,681,687,693,699,705,711,717,723,729,735,741,747,753,759,765,771,777,783,789,795,801,807,813,819,825,831,837,843,849,855,861,867,873,879,885,891,897,903,909,915,921,927,933,939,945,951,957,963,969,975,981,987,993,999,1005,1011,1017,1023,1029],{"idx":6,"utterance_id":7,"speaker_name":8,"text":9,"start_s":10,"end_s":11,"word_count":12,"indexable":13},0,"79020","Desconhecido","Es muy fácil, durante un mandato, mejorar la condición de vida de las personas condenando su futuro.",0.06,5.18,16,false,{"idx":15,"utterance_id":16,"speaker_name":8,"text":17,"start_s":18,"end_s":19,"word_count":20,"indexable":13},1,"79021","Ok, ok.",5.4,5.72,2,{"idx":20,"utterance_id":22,"speaker_name":8,"text":23,"start_s":24,"end_s":25,"word_count":26,"indexable":13},"79022","Voy a hacer una analogía.",5.76,7.58,5,{"idx":28,"utterance_id":29,"speaker_name":8,"text":30,"start_s":31,"end_s":32,"word_count":33,"indexable":13},3,"79023","¿Va a llegar el año que viene?",8.4,9.38,6,{"idx":35,"utterance_id":36,"speaker_name":8,"text":37,"start_s":38,"end_s":39,"word_count":15,"indexable":13},4,"79024","Se acabó.",9.58,9.88,{"idx":26,"utterance_id":41,"speaker_name":8,"text":42,"start_s":43,"end_s":44,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},"79025","No voy a tener dinero para comer.",10.16,10.98,7,{"idx":33,"utterance_id":47,"speaker_name":8,"text":48,"start_s":49,"end_s":50,"word_count":51,"indexable":13},"79026","Lo que estamos hablando aquí es lo siguiente.",11.46,13,10,{"idx":45,"utterance_id":53,"speaker_name":8,"text":54,"start_s":55,"end_s":56,"word_count":57,"indexable":13},"79027","Creo que el votante sí sabe lo que es bueno.",13.08,17.14,12,{"idx":59,"utterance_id":60,"speaker_name":8,"text":61,"start_s":62,"end_s":63,"word_count":64,"indexable":13},8,"79028","Tanto lo sabe que Lula salió de su primer mandato con una aprobación altísima, y del segundo con una aprobación altísima, por la inclusión que promovió.",17.86,26.32,23,{"idx":66,"utterance_id":67,"speaker_name":8,"text":68,"start_s":69,"end_s":70,"word_count":15,"indexable":13},9,"79029","La promovió.",26.6,27.02,{"idx":51,"utterance_id":72,"speaker_name":8,"text":73,"start_s":74,"end_s":75,"word_count":50,"indexable":13},"79030","Puedes discrepar del formato, de cómo fue, pero hubo una inclusión fuerte.",27.56,32.68,{"idx":77,"utterance_id":78,"speaker_name":8,"text":79,"start_s":80,"end_s":81,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},11,"79031","Mucha gente en las universidades.",33.28,35.36,{"idx":57,"utterance_id":83,"speaker_name":8,"text":84,"start_s":85,"end_s":86,"word_count":87,"indexable":13},"79032","Tengo enormes críticas al FIES porque creo que fue un drenaje allí, no hubo indicadores, pero hubo mucha gente.",36.74,44.32,21,{"idx":50,"utterance_id":89,"speaker_name":8,"text":90,"start_s":91,"end_s":92,"word_count":93,"indexable":13},"79033","Y ese mismo votante, o sea, ¿por qué Lula no tiene hoy lo que tuvo en el pasado?",45.54,52.16,17,{"idx":95,"utterance_id":96,"speaker_name":8,"text":97,"start_s":98,"end_s":99,"word_count":100,"indexable":13},14,"79034","Porque hubo en el camino algunos gobiernos, principalmente el gobierno de Dilma, que trajeron una recesión muy fuerte, en la que tuvo que entregar todo aquello que había conquistado.",52.7,65.18,31,{"idx":102,"utterance_id":103,"speaker_name":8,"text":104,"start_s":105,"end_s":106,"word_count":107,"indexable":13},15,"79035","Entonces, el chico que estaba en la universidad, la chica que había ido a la universidad con el Fies.",65.3,71.84,18,{"idx":12,"utterance_id":109,"speaker_name":8,"text":110,"start_s":111,"end_s":112,"word_count":107,"indexable":13},"79036","Tuvo que entregar, tuvo que volver a trabajar, ya no pudo seguir estudiando, en fin, una serie de otras cosas.",72.44,77.78,{"idx":93,"utterance_id":114,"speaker_name":8,"text":115,"start_s":116,"end_s":117,"word_count":59,"indexable":13},"79037","Y eso castigó a Lula, castigó al PT.",78.18,80.1,{"idx":107,"utterance_id":119,"speaker_name":8,"text":120,"start_s":121,"end_s":122,"word_count":51,"indexable":13},"79038","El PT no tiene hoy lo que tenía en el pasado.",81.6,83.56,{"idx":124,"utterance_id":125,"speaker_name":8,"text":126,"start_s":127,"end_s":128,"word_count":129,"indexable":13},19,"79039","Y creo que se debe a que, creo que así, tener políticos que promuevan el bienestar y que logren alcanzarlo, serán reconocidos por el votante.",84.16,96.58,28,{"idx":131,"utterance_id":132,"speaker_name":8,"text":133,"start_s":134,"end_s":135,"word_count":131,"indexable":13},20,"79040","Un votante no va a... renunciar a un político que... un alcalde, un gobernador... Nosotros discrepamos en muchas cosas.",96.92,106.12,{"idx":87,"utterance_id":137,"speaker_name":8,"text":138,"start_s":139,"end_s":140,"word_count":51,"indexable":13},"79041","Un alcalde y un gobernador que le traigan bienestar, gente.",106.16,110.86,{"idx":142,"utterance_id":143,"speaker_name":8,"text":144,"start_s":145,"end_s":146,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},22,"79042","¿Cómo va a ser?",110.94,111.62,{"idx":64,"utterance_id":148,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":151,"start_s":152,"end_s":153,"word_count":26,"indexable":13},"79043","Kim Kataguiri","kim-kataguiri","Primer punto, Mara, mira.",112.04,113.1,{"idx":155,"utterance_id":156,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":157,"start_s":158,"end_s":159,"word_count":64,"indexable":13},24,"79044","El argumento que trajiste para decir que el votante sabe votar es que Lula salió popular de los dos primeros mandatos.",113.98,120.74,{"idx":161,"utterance_id":162,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":163,"start_s":164,"end_s":165,"word_count":20,"indexable":13},25,"79045","Por la inclusión.",121.04,121.46,{"idx":167,"utterance_id":168,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":169,"start_s":170,"end_s":171,"word_count":26,"indexable":13},26,"79046","Porque su gobierno incluyó.",121.5,123.26,{"idx":173,"utterance_id":174,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":175,"start_s":176,"end_s":177,"word_count":59,"indexable":13},27,"79047","Y ahí voy a discrepar de ese primer punto.",123.76,125.16,{"idx":129,"utterance_id":179,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":180,"start_s":181,"end_s":182,"word_count":26,"indexable":13},"79048","El gobierno de Lula no incluyó.",125.58,126.82,{"idx":184,"utterance_id":185,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":186,"start_s":187,"end_s":188,"word_count":189,"indexable":13},29,"79049","Hay un estudio muy bueno que ya vi presentado por Marcos Lisboa, no fue él quien lo hizo, pero lo difunde, que muestra que todos los países en desarrollo, todos nuestros pares, tuvieron una caída brusca de la miseria, tuvieron una caída brusca del hambre y tuvieron un aumento del ingreso medio.",127.44,146.3,52,{"idx":191,"utterance_id":192,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":193,"start_s":194,"end_s":195,"word_count":107,"indexable":13},30,"79050","Solo que, en comparación con nuestros pares, la caída de nuestra miseria y del hambre fue menor.",146.72,152.54,{"idx":100,"utterance_id":197,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":198,"start_s":199,"end_s":200,"word_count":26,"indexable":13},"79051","Entonces, fue un fenómeno global.",153.08,155.16,{"idx":202,"utterance_id":203,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":204,"start_s":205,"end_s":206,"word_count":33,"indexable":13},32,"79052","con China creciendo un 10% al año.",155.84,157.5,{"idx":208,"utterance_id":209,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":210,"start_s":211,"end_s":212,"word_count":59,"indexable":13},33,"79053","Todos los países en desarrollo se beneficiaron de eso.",158.04,160.44,{"idx":214,"utterance_id":215,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":216,"start_s":217,"end_s":218,"word_count":93,"indexable":13},34,"79054","Y a causa del gobierno de Lula perdimos esa oportunidad de transformarnos en un país desarrollado.",160.96,165.98,{"idx":220,"utterance_id":221,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":222,"start_s":223,"end_s":224,"word_count":107,"indexable":13},35,"79055","Lula podría haber salido al final del segundo mandato con Brasil más poderoso, más rico que Chile.",166.48,172.54,{"idx":226,"utterance_id":227,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":228,"start_s":229,"end_s":230,"word_count":87,"indexable":13},36,"79056","Chile aprovechó esa oportunidad mejor que nosotros y llegó a la frontera de casi transformarse en un país desarrollado.",172.72,178.84,{"idx":232,"utterance_id":233,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":234,"start_s":235,"end_s":236,"word_count":173,"indexable":13},37,"79057","Después tuvo un problema en los rumbos, pero si dices que... La prueba de la calidad del voto del votante es que Lula salió popular del segundo mandato.",179.16,186.82,{"idx":238,"utterance_id":239,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":240,"start_s":241,"end_s":242,"word_count":87,"indexable":13},38,"79058","Después el votante no entendió que la crisis del gobierno de Dilma fue también una consecuencia de los gastos obligatorios contratados por Lula.",186.9,193.5,{"idx":244,"utterance_id":245,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":246,"start_s":247,"end_s":248,"word_count":12,"indexable":13},39,"79059","Fue también una consecuencia de los privilegios de cientos de miles de millones concedidos por la élite privada por Lula.",193.94,199.64,{"idx":250,"utterance_id":251,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":252,"start_s":253,"end_s":254,"word_count":255,"indexable":13},40,"79060","Entonces, así, esa conexión no se hizo y el hecho de que... Si las personas hubieran tenido la percepción de la oportunidad histórica que perdimos en Lula 1 y Lula 2 para... transformar Brasil en un país desarrollado, Lula estaría, pues, proscrito de la vida política.",199.96,215.88,45,{"idx":257,"utterance_id":258,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":261,"start_s":262,"end_s":263,"word_count":264,"indexable":13},41,"79061","Renan Santos","renan-santos","Y entonces la gente creó un vínculo paternalista con Lula, de que Lula les entregó, les otorgó, digamos, ese pequeño beneficio material que tuvieron en su vida, que habría ocurrido de todas formas, y en realidad habría ocurrido con mayor intensidad si hubiera ganado Serra en lugar de Lula en 2002.",216.4,230.58,56,{"idx":266,"utterance_id":267,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":268,"start_s":269,"end_s":270,"word_count":191,"indexable":13},42,"79062","Pero al final del día, esa decisión, por tanto, una decisión irracional, ni siquiera se puede decir que es una gran decisión de Heitor; es que eso, digamos, está en lo macro.",230.92,237.46,{"idx":272,"utterance_id":273,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":274,"start_s":275,"end_s":276,"word_count":50,"indexable":13},43,"79063","Cuando lo llevo al micro, Mara, tú... no vas a poder defender esa tesis.",238,241.66,{"idx":278,"utterance_id":279,"speaker_name":8,"text":280,"start_s":281,"end_s":282,"word_count":28,"indexable":13},44,"79064","Mira, diputado...",241.72,242.94,{"idx":255,"utterance_id":284,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":285,"start_s":286,"end_s":287,"word_count":173,"indexable":13},"79065","Si voy a una alcaldía del interior, las alcaldías de los lugares más pobres de Brasil que no alteran el IDH, la gente reelige a sus políticos.",243.28,250.44,{"idx":289,"utterance_id":290,"speaker_name":8,"text":291,"start_s":292,"end_s":293,"word_count":107,"indexable":13},46,"79066","Pero mira, en relación con el primer y el segundo gobierno, hubo una inclusión y ese votante premió.",250.52,256.16,{"idx":295,"utterance_id":296,"speaker_name":8,"text":297,"start_s":298,"end_s":299,"word_count":257,"indexable":13},47,"79067","Estoy de acuerdo en que hiciste un razonamiento que incluso ya oí de algunos petistas que son... que tienen críticas serias por lo siguiente, mira... Esto estuvo muy basado en el consumo, en el crédito y no en inversiones de Estado que se perpetuaran.",256.6,273.2,{"idx":301,"utterance_id":302,"speaker_name":8,"text":303,"start_s":304,"end_s":305,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},48,"79068","Entonces es una discusión mucho más profunda.",273.26,276.16,{"idx":307,"utterance_id":308,"speaker_name":8,"text":309,"start_s":310,"end_s":311,"word_count":244,"indexable":13},49,"79069","Y estoy de acuerdo en que hay que tener esa discusión, inclusive sobre proyectos a largo plazo, proyectos de Estado que no entreguen en el siguiente gobierno todas aquellas conquistas de inclusión que lograron, que es un análisis mucho más profundo.",276.4,290.58,{"idx":313,"utterance_id":314,"speaker_name":8,"text":315,"start_s":316,"end_s":317,"word_count":50,"indexable":13},50,"79070","Pero que el votante... ¿Premió al tipo que mejoró su vida?",290.7,296.48,{"idx":319,"utterance_id":320,"speaker_name":8,"text":321,"start_s":322,"end_s":323,"word_count":15,"indexable":13},51,"79071","Lo premió.",296.72,297.12,{"idx":189,"utterance_id":325,"speaker_name":8,"text":326,"start_s":327,"end_s":328,"word_count":95,"indexable":13},"79072","Y luego el votante castigó al mismo tipo que le quitó aquello... una buena parte.",297.86,305.02,{"idx":330,"utterance_id":331,"speaker_name":8,"text":332,"start_s":333,"end_s":334,"word_count":51,"indexable":13},53,"79073","Lula no tiene hoy lo que tenía en el pasado.",305.14,308.48,{"idx":336,"utterance_id":337,"speaker_name":8,"text":338,"start_s":339,"end_s":340,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},54,"79074","Lula nunca ganó en la primera vuelta.",308.52,309.66,{"idx":342,"utterance_id":343,"speaker_name":8,"text":344,"start_s":345,"end_s":346,"word_count":77,"indexable":13},55,"79075","Está bien, pero él no tenía nada de lo que tenía en el pasado.",310.52,312.44,{"idx":264,"utterance_id":348,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":349,"start_s":350,"end_s":351,"word_count":107,"indexable":13},"79076","Dilma fue reelegida en 2014 con esa crisis ocurriendo, con la operación Lava Jato en marcha, con empresas cerrando.",312.48,319.16,{"idx":353,"utterance_id":354,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":355,"start_s":356,"end_s":357,"word_count":51,"indexable":13},57,"79077","Y después, cuando Haddad va a la siguiente elección.",320.02,321.96,{"idx":359,"utterance_id":360,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":361,"start_s":362,"end_s":363,"word_count":77,"indexable":13},58,"79078","con el PT preso, Bolsonaro no gana en la primera vuelta.",322.02,324.58,{"idx":365,"utterance_id":366,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":367,"start_s":368,"end_s":369,"word_count":57,"indexable":13},59,"79079","Haddad toma el legado de Lula y obtiene más del 40%.",324.78,326.98,{"idx":371,"utterance_id":372,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":373,"start_s":374,"end_s":375,"word_count":50,"indexable":13},60,"79080","y si hubiera tenido dos semanas más de campaña, Haddad habría alcanzado a Bolsonaro.",327.2,330.78,{"idx":377,"utterance_id":378,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":379,"start_s":380,"end_s":381,"word_count":26,"indexable":13},61,"79081","Esas son palabras del propio Bolsonaro.",331.08,332.3,{"idx":383,"utterance_id":384,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":385,"start_s":386,"end_s":387,"word_count":173,"indexable":13},62,"79082","Si saco, digamos, esa serie histórica, nos daremos cuenta de que en verdad Lula forjó un voto identitario con buena parte de su electorado.",333.52,341.18,{"idx":389,"utterance_id":390,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":391,"start_s":392,"end_s":393,"word_count":51,"indexable":13},63,"79083","Un voto identitario basado en la figura mesiánica que él creó.",342.14,344.72,{"idx":395,"utterance_id":396,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":397,"start_s":398,"end_s":399,"word_count":95,"indexable":13},64,"79084","Esas personas lo vieron, eventualmente, como un punto de partida en el cambio de sus vidas.",346,350.78,{"idx":401,"utterance_id":402,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":403,"start_s":404,"end_s":405,"word_count":107,"indexable":13},65,"79085","Y por ser un tipo, digamos, que se identifica, incluso en términos de identidad, ¿no?",350.9,354.6,{"idx":407,"utterance_id":408,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":409,"start_s":410,"end_s":411,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},66,"79086","Con ese votante nordestino.",354.98,356.04,{"idx":413,"utterance_id":414,"speaker_name":8,"text":415,"start_s":416,"end_s":417,"word_count":28,"indexable":13},67,"79087","Por su historia.",356.08,357.28,{"idx":419,"utterance_id":420,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":421,"start_s":422,"end_s":423,"word_count":20,"indexable":13},68,"79088","Lo asociaron.",357.7,358.28,{"idx":425,"utterance_id":426,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":427,"start_s":428,"end_s":429,"word_count":93,"indexable":13},69,"79089","No se puede decir que sea exactamente racional, que el elector esté tomando una decisión buena.",358.62,361.72,{"idx":431,"utterance_id":432,"speaker_name":8,"text":433,"start_s":434,"end_s":435,"word_count":12,"indexable":13},70,"79090","Pero mi punto es: si mejoras las condiciones de vida de esa persona, ella lo hará.",362.14,368.96,{"idx":437,"utterance_id":438,"speaker_name":8,"text":439,"start_s":440,"end_s":441,"word_count":51,"indexable":13},71,"79091","Ella no entra en la profundidad del razonamiento que tú hiciste.",369.42,376.4,{"idx":443,"utterance_id":444,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":445,"start_s":446,"end_s":447,"word_count":33,"indexable":13},72,"79092","Pero eso es un estímulo perverso.",376.44,377.68,{"idx":449,"utterance_id":450,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":451,"start_s":452,"end_s":453,"word_count":12,"indexable":13},73,"79093","Es muy fácil mejorar durante el mandato la condición de vida de las personas condenando su futuro.",378.02,383.08,{"idx":455,"utterance_id":456,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":457,"start_s":458,"end_s":459,"word_count":33,"indexable":13},74,"79094","Es lo mismo que lo siguiente.",383.14,383.94,{"idx":461,"utterance_id":462,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":463,"start_s":464,"end_s":465,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},75,"79095","Voy a hacer una analogía muy simple.",383.98,385.9,{"idx":467,"utterance_id":468,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":469,"start_s":470,"end_s":471,"word_count":28,"indexable":13},76,"79096","Es muy fácil.",388,388.64,{"idx":473,"utterance_id":474,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":475,"start_s":476,"end_s":477,"word_count":142,"indexable":13},77,"79097","Puedo tomar mi nivel de vida de hoy y aumentarlo, digamos, 5, 6, 7 veces durante este año con tranquilidad.",388.76,396.94,{"idx":479,"utterance_id":480,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":481,"start_s":482,"end_s":483,"word_count":15,"indexable":13},78,"79098","¿Cómo?",397.1,397.42,{"idx":485,"utterance_id":486,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":487,"start_s":488,"end_s":489,"word_count":102,"indexable":13},79,"79099","De la misma manera que puedo aumentar el nivel de vida de las personas gobernándolas.",397.9,401,{"idx":491,"utterance_id":492,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":493,"start_s":494,"end_s":495,"word_count":93,"indexable":13},80,"79100","Uso mi tarjeta de crédito, gasto el límite todos los meses y pago el mínimo.",401.04,405.58,{"idx":497,"utterance_id":498,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":499,"start_s":500,"end_s":501,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},81,"79101","¿Qué va a pasar?",406.24,406.94,{"idx":503,"utterance_id":504,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":505,"start_s":506,"end_s":507,"word_count":51,"indexable":13},82,"79102","Me voy a dar la gran vida este año.",407.02,408.9,{"idx":509,"utterance_id":510,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":511,"start_s":512,"end_s":513,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},83,"79103","Llegará el año que viene, se acabó.",409.14,410.72,{"idx":515,"utterance_id":516,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":42,"start_s":517,"end_s":518,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},84,"79104",410.88,411.7,{"idx":520,"utterance_id":521,"speaker_name":8,"text":522,"start_s":523,"end_s":524,"word_count":51,"indexable":13},85,"79105","De lo que estamos hablando aquí es lo siguiente.",412.18,413.7,{"idx":526,"utterance_id":527,"speaker_name":8,"text":528,"start_s":529,"end_s":530,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},86,"79106","Y en ese aspecto vamos a estar de acuerdo.",414.48,417,{"idx":532,"utterance_id":533,"speaker_name":8,"text":534,"start_s":535,"end_s":536,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},87,"79107","Es decir, medidas populistas.",417.12,418.82,{"idx":538,"utterance_id":539,"speaker_name":8,"text":540,"start_s":541,"end_s":542,"word_count":66,"indexable":13},88,"79108","La izquierda y la derecha recurren a esas medidas populistas.",419.12,422.6,{"idx":544,"utterance_id":545,"speaker_name":8,"text":546,"start_s":547,"end_s":548,"word_count":26,"indexable":13},89,"79109","La izquierda o la derecha.",422.8,424.22,{"idx":550,"utterance_id":551,"speaker_name":8,"text":552,"start_s":553,"end_s":554,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},90,"79110","Y eso ha estado ocurriendo.",424.72,426.7,{"idx":556,"utterance_id":557,"speaker_name":8,"text":558,"start_s":559,"end_s":560,"word_count":50,"indexable":13},91,"79111","Ellas van a mejorar la vida de las personas a corto plazo, porque son populistas.",427.7,432.3,{"idx":562,"utterance_id":563,"speaker_name":8,"text":564,"start_s":565,"end_s":566,"word_count":319,"indexable":13},92,"79112","Pero lo que estoy diciendo es que esas personas que no tienen esa profundidad de razonamiento... y que están preocupadas — vivimos en un país muy desigual — que están preocupadas por alimentar a sus hijos y por ponerlos en la escuela, sí van a premiar a quien les dé una mejor condición de vida.",432.6,449.44,{"idx":568,"utterance_id":569,"speaker_name":8,"text":570,"start_s":571,"end_s":572,"word_count":155,"indexable":13},93,"79113","No consideran la cuestión estructural de que esto es algo populista y no va a perdurar, no es un proyecto de gobierno.",449.8,456.98,{"idx":574,"utterance_id":575,"speaker_name":8,"text":576,"start_s":577,"end_s":578,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},94,"79114","Eso es votar mal.",457.02,457.48,{"idx":580,"utterance_id":581,"speaker_name":8,"text":582,"start_s":583,"end_s":584,"word_count":15,"indexable":13},95,"79115","Ok.",457.54,458.36,{"idx":586,"utterance_id":587,"speaker_name":8,"text":588,"start_s":589,"end_s":590,"word_count":28,"indexable":13},96,"79116","Eso es todo.",458.46,460.82,{"idx":592,"utterance_id":593,"speaker_name":8,"text":594,"start_s":595,"end_s":596,"word_count":12,"indexable":13},97,"79117","Pero lo que digo es que ella va a premiar a quien mejore su vida.",460.88,465.86,{"idx":598,"utterance_id":599,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":600,"start_s":601,"end_s":602,"word_count":15,"indexable":13},98,"79118","¿Entiendes?",466.02,466.28,{"idx":604,"utterance_id":605,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":606,"start_s":607,"end_s":608,"word_count":33,"indexable":13},99,"79119","Eso es lo que estoy diciendo.",466.38,467.52,{"idx":610,"utterance_id":611,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":612,"start_s":613,"end_s":614,"word_count":64,"indexable":13},100,"79120","Ni siquiera quiero llevarlo a ese nivel, porque, en realidad, ese tipo de cosas va a ocurrir incluso en países de primer mundo.",467.56,471.52,{"idx":616,"utterance_id":617,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":618,"start_s":619,"end_s":620,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},101,"79121","Así que ni siquiera estoy entrando en ese nivel.",472.18,473.76,{"idx":622,"utterance_id":623,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":624,"start_s":625,"end_s":626,"word_count":77,"indexable":13},102,"79122","El nivel en el que ocurre la perversidad es más la micropolítica.",474.08,478.54,{"idx":628,"utterance_id":629,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":630,"start_s":631,"end_s":632,"word_count":12,"indexable":13},103,"79123","Es más la política de los municipios, la política en los estados y la política para elegir diputado.",479,482.8,{"idx":634,"utterance_id":635,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":636,"start_s":637,"end_s":638,"word_count":87,"indexable":13},104,"79124","Eso es, pues, si la discusión sobre el populismo en la votación presidencial era una discusión viciada, en la política municipal es peor.",483.5,492.12,{"idx":640,"utterance_id":641,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":642,"start_s":643,"end_s":644,"word_count":100,"indexable":13},105,"79125","Porque la base de la compra de votos, la base de la política municipal en Brasil, la base de la democracia en Brasil, para entenderlo en términos municipales, es la compra de votos.",492.5,499.58,{"idx":646,"utterance_id":647,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":648,"start_s":649,"end_s":650,"word_count":66,"indexable":13},106,"79126","Por lo tanto, no hay democracia cuando hay compra de votos.",499.76,501.5,{"idx":652,"utterance_id":653,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":654,"start_s":655,"end_s":656,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},107,"79127","La base es eso.",502.08,502.76,{"idx":658,"utterance_id":659,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":660,"start_s":661,"end_s":662,"word_count":66,"indexable":13},108,"79128","Y el TSS quiere tener instrumentos claros de combate.",502.88,505.2,{"idx":664,"utterance_id":665,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":666,"start_s":667,"end_s":668,"word_count":124,"indexable":13},109,"79129","Tenemos que cambiar la ley, tenemos que criminalizar mucho, tanto a quien vende como a quien compra el voto.",505.26,509.42,{"idx":670,"utterance_id":671,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":672,"start_s":673,"end_s":674,"word_count":51,"indexable":13},110,"79130","Acabamos... con la mitad de los partidos del centrão haciendo eso.",509.8,512.74,{"idx":676,"utterance_id":677,"speaker_name":8,"text":678,"start_s":679,"end_s":680,"word_count":28,"indexable":13},111,"79131","Aquí estamos de acuerdo.",512.92,514.72,{"idx":682,"utterance_id":683,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":684,"start_s":685,"end_s":686,"word_count":28,"indexable":13},112,"79132","Hemos encontrado un punto.",515.88,517.16,{"idx":688,"utterance_id":689,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":690,"start_s":691,"end_s":692,"word_count":64,"indexable":13},113,"79133","Pero ¿no estás también de acuerdo en que tener indicadores de desempeño para poder premiar el funcionamiento de los partidos también es bueno?",517.32,523.46,{"idx":694,"utterance_id":695,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":696,"start_s":697,"end_s":698,"word_count":59,"indexable":13},114,"79134","Porque no estás acabando con el sufragio.",523.9,525.06,{"idx":700,"utterance_id":701,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":702,"start_s":703,"end_s":704,"word_count":26,"indexable":13},115,"79135","Estás diciendo lo siguiente.",525.1,526.02,{"idx":706,"utterance_id":707,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":708,"start_s":709,"end_s":710,"word_count":57,"indexable":13},116,"79136","El incentivo que tiene la clase política para ofrecer mejores productos cambia.",526.62,530.56,{"idx":712,"utterance_id":713,"speaker_name":149,"speaker_slug":150,"text":714,"start_s":715,"end_s":716,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},117,"79137","La gente sigue votando.",531.02,531.98,{"idx":718,"utterance_id":719,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":720,"start_s":721,"end_s":722,"word_count":95,"indexable":13},118,"79138","Así, si tengo un candidato que voy a lanzar para alcalde de Jundiaí.",532.54,535.8,{"idx":724,"utterance_id":725,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":726,"start_s":727,"end_s":728,"word_count":64,"indexable":13},119,"79139","Él ya no va a ser puesto allí simplemente para ser un tipo que va a recibir una enmienda, no sé, del Kim para elegir diputado.",537.3,541.74,{"idx":730,"utterance_id":731,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":732,"start_s":733,"end_s":734,"word_count":102,"indexable":13},120,"79140","Será colocado allí porque determinará si el partido va a tener éxito.",541.84,544.88,{"idx":736,"utterance_id":737,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":738,"start_s":739,"end_s":740,"word_count":57,"indexable":13},121,"79141","Y además, si ese político no entrega los indicadores, queda inelegible.",545.32,549.98,{"idx":742,"utterance_id":743,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":744,"start_s":745,"end_s":746,"word_count":155,"indexable":13},122,"79142","Porque ¿qué sentido tiene ofrecer a la comunidad a una persona que no mejora de hecho la vida de la gente estando en el cargo?",550.52,556.14,{"idx":748,"utterance_id":749,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":750,"start_s":751,"end_s":752,"word_count":226,"indexable":13},123,"79143","Y entonces cambiamos, porque, Mara, una cosa que es verdad... Los grandes presidentes en las democracias que resolvieron problemas de las democracias fueron tipos que en algún momento supieron hacer un uso inteligente del poder ejecutivo.",556.58,568.86,{"idx":754,"utterance_id":755,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":756,"start_s":757,"end_s":758,"word_count":26,"indexable":13},124,"79144","Un ejemplo es Roosevelt.",569.56,570.34,{"idx":760,"utterance_id":761,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":762,"start_s":763,"end_s":764,"word_count":107,"indexable":13},125,"79145","Roosevelt es un tipo que supo usar el ejecutivo para resolver un problema económico y político colosal.",570.38,576.32,{"idx":766,"utterance_id":767,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":768,"start_s":769,"end_s":770,"word_count":50,"indexable":13},126,"79146","En ese sentido, tenemos que saber empoderar de manera democrática al poder ejecutivo.",577.62,585,{"idx":772,"utterance_id":773,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":774,"start_s":775,"end_s":776,"word_count":66,"indexable":13},127,"79147","Porque el ejecutivo tiene que tener medios de acción.",585.68,586.94,{"idx":778,"utterance_id":779,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":780,"start_s":781,"end_s":782,"word_count":124,"indexable":13},128,"79148","¿Por qué las democracias occidentales están en entredicho y están perdiendo en gran medida frente al modelo asiático?",588.02,594.24,{"idx":784,"utterance_id":785,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":786,"start_s":787,"end_s":788,"word_count":57,"indexable":13},129,"79149","Porque en el modelo asiático, el poder ejecutivo tiene fuerza y tiene ejecución.",594.74,597.64,{"idx":790,"utterance_id":791,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":792,"start_s":793,"end_s":794,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},130,"79150","Y en Occidente, no.",598.2,599.46,{"idx":796,"utterance_id":797,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":798,"start_s":799,"end_s":800,"word_count":95,"indexable":13},131,"79151","En Occidente están muy mitigados los medios de acción y el poder de ejecución.",599.86,603.08,{"idx":802,"utterance_id":803,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":804,"start_s":805,"end_s":806,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},132,"79152","No sólo en Brasil.",603.6,604.24,{"idx":808,"utterance_id":809,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":810,"start_s":811,"end_s":812,"word_count":77,"indexable":13},133,"79153","En Brasil, creo que es el caso más grave de todos.",604.28,605.7,{"idx":814,"utterance_id":815,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":816,"start_s":817,"end_s":818,"word_count":107,"indexable":13},134,"79154","Fui a ver las reformas que el electo está haciendo; ellos aún tienen un poder de acción allí.",606.1,609.56,{"idx":820,"utterance_id":821,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":822,"start_s":823,"end_s":824,"word_count":51,"indexable":13},135,"79155","Aquí ya ni siquiera existe el presupuesto discrecional, todo está constitucionalizado.",609.72,613.56,{"idx":826,"utterance_id":827,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":828,"start_s":829,"end_s":830,"word_count":33,"indexable":13},136,"79156","Aquí el poder ejecutivo no manda.",614.02,615.06,{"idx":832,"utterance_id":833,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":834,"start_s":835,"end_s":836,"word_count":87,"indexable":13},137,"79157","Y un alcalde, fíjate, en nuestra lógica, un alcalde es un mero instrumento para ayudar a elegir a un diputado.",615.76,621.14,{"idx":838,"utterance_id":839,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":840,"start_s":841,"end_s":842,"word_count":100,"indexable":13},138,"79158","Mira qué locura: el tipo que más transforma la vida de la gente, que sería el alcalde, es un instrumento, es un títere en un juego político para elegir a esos tipos.",621.58,628.7,{"idx":844,"utterance_id":845,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":846,"start_s":847,"end_s":848,"word_count":77,"indexable":13},139,"79159","Entonces, cuando miro, la gente dice: ah, viva la democracia.",629.18,631.74,{"idx":850,"utterance_id":851,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":852,"start_s":853,"end_s":854,"word_count":77,"indexable":13},140,"79160","Sí, pero nuestra democracia necesita ser entendida en un contexto brasileño.",632.08,635.42,{"idx":856,"utterance_id":857,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":858,"start_s":859,"end_s":860,"word_count":129,"indexable":13},141,"79161","El modelo brasileño, basado en oligarquías locales, en una población que se acostumbró a la compra de votos, populismo puro y simple, no nos está haciendo bien.",636.14,644.14,{"idx":862,"utterance_id":863,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":864,"start_s":865,"end_s":866,"word_count":33,"indexable":13},142,"79162","La democracia brasileña nos está haciendo daño.",644.84,646.22,{"idx":868,"utterance_id":869,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":870,"start_s":871,"end_s":872,"word_count":131,"indexable":13},143,"79163","Entonces tenemos que tener una democracia adaptada a la lógica brasileña para curarnos de nuestros propios vicios.",646.72,651.16,{"idx":874,"utterance_id":875,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":876,"start_s":877,"end_s":878,"word_count":20,"indexable":13},144,"79164","Pero demócrata.",652.8,653.52,{"idx":880,"utterance_id":881,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":882,"start_s":883,"end_s":884,"word_count":77,"indexable":13},145,"79165","Pero demócrata, porque estoy retomando tu comentario sobre Chile.",653.96,655.94,{"idx":886,"utterance_id":887,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":888,"start_s":889,"end_s":890,"word_count":87,"indexable":13},146,"79166","Chile quizá trajo una perspectiva muy anglosajona en la idea de emancipación individual, de alta conscienciosidad, que funciona mucho en Asia.",656.44,663.86,{"idx":892,"utterance_id":893,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":894,"start_s":895,"end_s":896,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},147,"79167","Asia tiene la lógica del ahorro.",663.9,666.42,{"idx":898,"utterance_id":899,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":900,"start_s":901,"end_s":902,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},148,"79168","Todo chino ahorra, el vietnamita ahorra, el coreano ahorra.",666.7,669.76,{"idx":904,"utterance_id":905,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":906,"start_s":907,"end_s":908,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},149,"79169","La lógica del ahorro forma parte de ellos.",669.82,671.3,{"idx":910,"utterance_id":911,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":912,"start_s":913,"end_s":914,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},150,"79170","Ahí entra el tema de la cultura del arroz.",671.66,672.7,{"idx":916,"utterance_id":917,"speaker_name":8,"text":918,"start_s":919,"end_s":920,"word_count":59,"indexable":13},151,"79171","Ahí el problema es el exceso de ahorro.",672.74,674.48,{"idx":922,"utterance_id":923,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":924,"start_s":925,"end_s":926,"word_count":15,"indexable":13},152,"79172","Exacto.",675.08,675.44,{"idx":928,"utterance_id":929,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":930,"start_s":931,"end_s":932,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},153,"79173","Entonces ahorran mucho.",675.68,676.54,{"idx":934,"utterance_id":935,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":936,"start_s":937,"end_s":938,"word_count":102,"indexable":13},154,"79174","Aquí, esa lógica de la conscienciosidad, de la visión a largo plazo, de posponer la recompensa es diferente.",677.48,682.36,{"idx":940,"utterance_id":941,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":942,"start_s":943,"end_s":944,"word_count":51,"indexable":13},155,"79175","Entonces tienes que producir cultura que genere eso, claro.",682.78,685.8,{"idx":946,"utterance_id":947,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":948,"start_s":949,"end_s":950,"word_count":95,"indexable":13},156,"79176","Pero si en algún momento la persona se queda desatendida, el Estado tendrá que actuar.",686.1,688.52,{"idx":952,"utterance_id":953,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":954,"start_s":955,"end_s":956,"word_count":57,"indexable":13},157,"79177","Entonces estás entendiendo que es una adaptación de un concepto liberal.",688.56,691.16,{"idx":958,"utterance_id":959,"speaker_name":259,"speaker_slug":260,"text":960,"start_s":961,"end_s":962,"word_count":50,"indexable":13},158,"79178","No lo estás tropicalizando, lo estás, no sé, andinizando en Chile esa lógica.",691.2,695.56,{"idx":964,"utterance_id":965,"speaker_name":8,"text":966,"start_s":967,"end_s":968,"word_count":26,"indexable":13},159,"79179","Creo que está evolucionando, ¿entiendes?",695.96,698.68,{"idx":970,"utterance_id":971,"speaker_name":8,"text":972,"start_s":973,"end_s":974,"word_count":124,"indexable":13},160,"79180","La introdujeron; en su momento fue celebrada, muy celebrada; se hicieron varios estudios y tal por la reforma profunda que realizaron.",698.94,707.56,{"idx":976,"utterance_id":977,"speaker_name":8,"text":978,"start_s":979,"end_s":980,"word_count":66,"indexable":13},161,"79181","Y 30 años después, aparecieron varias fallas del sistema.",708.18,713.96,{"idx":982,"utterance_id":983,"speaker_name":8,"text":984,"start_s":985,"end_s":986,"word_count":102,"indexable":13},162,"79182","Ahora, dijiste una cosa que — si fuera Serra — habría sido diferente.",714.52,718.74,{"idx":988,"utterance_id":989,"speaker_name":8,"text":990,"start_s":991,"end_s":992,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},163,"79183","¿Votaste por Serra?",718.78,719.38,{"idx":994,"utterance_id":995,"speaker_name":8,"text":996,"start_s":997,"end_s":998,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},164,"79184","Voté, en 2002, voté.",719.62,720.84,{"idx":1000,"utterance_id":1001,"speaker_name":8,"text":1002,"start_s":1003,"end_s":1004,"word_count":28,"indexable":13},165,"79185","¿Te cae bien?",721.18,721.8,{"idx":1006,"utterance_id":1007,"speaker_name":8,"text":1008,"start_s":1009,"end_s":1010,"word_count":35,"indexable":13},166,"79186","¿Eres un tucano?",721.84,722.8,{"idx":1012,"utterance_id":1013,"speaker_name":8,"text":1014,"start_s":1015,"end_s":1016,"word_count":124,"indexable":13},167,"79187","No, yo... Bueno, nuestros enemigos del bolsonarismo se llaman neotucanos, y hasta entiendo por qué se llaman así.",723.4,730.4,{"idx":1018,"utterance_id":1019,"speaker_name":8,"text":1020,"start_s":1021,"end_s":1022,"word_count":102,"indexable":13},168,"79188","Porque el PSDB en un momento fue un partido formado por grandes cuadros, cuando surgió.",730.8,734.54,{"idx":1024,"utterance_id":1025,"speaker_name":8,"text":1026,"start_s":1027,"end_s":1028,"word_count":93,"indexable":13},169,"79189","Y nosotros, ¿no? Mira nomás al chico que tengo aquí, tenemos a nuestros grandes cuadros aquí.",735.18,738.62,{"idx":1030,"utterance_id":1031,"speaker_name":8,"text":1032,"start_s":1033,"end_s":1034,"word_count":45,"indexable":13},170,"79190","Así que lo que ocurrió fue bastante progresista.",739.22,764.18,"es",{"job_id":1037,"title":1038,"source_url":1039,"platform":1040,"content_type":1041,"published_at":1042,"duration_sec":1043,"n_classified":1044,"speakers":1045},"b54e4e51-82ab-4f33-aa81-69910cbe98f0","Jornalista fez PERGUNTA POLÊMICA e tive que 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