[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"transcript-b0f2ae45-e39d-46cc-8b75-c416c7429f96-es":3,"transcript-poster-b0f2ae45-e39d-46cc-8b75-c416c7429f96":1726,"footer-top-topics-es":1727,"footer-top-speakers-es":1772},{"falas":4,"lang":1714,"meta":1715},[5,15,22,29,36,41,48,55,62,69,76,82,88,94,99,104,109,116,121,127,132,138,145,152,157,162,168,175,181,186,192,198,204,210,215,221,227,233,238,244,250,256,262,268,274,280,286,292,298,303,309,315,321,327,333,339,345,351,357,363,369,375,381,387,393,399,405,411,417,423,429,435,441,447,453,459,465,471,477,483,489,495,501,507,513,519,525,531,537,543,549,555,561,567,573,579,585,591,597,603,609,615,621,627,633,639,645,651,656,662,668,674,680,686,692,698,704,710,716,722,728,734,740,746,752,758,764,770,776,782,788,793,799,805,810,816,822,828,834,840,846,852,858,864,870,876,882,888,894,900,906,912,918,924,930,936,942,948,954,960,966,972,978,984,990,996,1002,1008,1014,1020,1026,1032,1038,1044,1050,1056,1062,1068,1074,1080,1086,1092,1098,1104,1110,1116,1122,1128,1134,1140,1146,1152,1158,1164,1170,1176,1182,1188,1194,1200,1206,1212,1218,1224,1230,1236,1242,1248,1254,1260,1266,1272,1278,1284,1290,1296,1302,1308,1314,1320,1326,1332,1338,1343,1349,1354,1360,1366,1372,1378,1384,1390,1396,1402,1408,1414,1420,1426,1432,1438,1444,1450,1456,1462,1468,1474,1480,1486,1492,1498,1504,1510,1516,1522,1528,1534,1540,1546,1552,1558,1564,1570,1576,1582,1588,1594,1600,1606,1612,1618,1624,1630,1636,1642,1648,1654,1660,1666,1672,1678,1684,1690,1696,1702,1708],{"idx":6,"utterance_id":7,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":10,"start_s":11,"end_s":12,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},0,"65902","Fernando Haddad","fernando-haddad","Mi invitado de hoy es una de las lideranzas progresistas más expresivas del país.",10.7,15.32,14,false,{"idx":16,"utterance_id":17,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":18,"start_s":19,"end_s":20,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},1,"65903","Es médico especializado en medicina comunitaria, clínica médica y psiquiatría.",15.6,20.8,11,{"idx":23,"utterance_id":24,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":25,"start_s":26,"end_s":27,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},2,"65904","También se graduó en periodismo.",21.52,22.94,4,{"idx":30,"utterance_id":31,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":32,"start_s":33,"end_s":34,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},3,"65905","Ha sido ministro de Salud y hoy es senador por el estado de Pernambuco y líder del PT en esa cámara.",23.58,30.16,19,{"idx":28,"utterance_id":37,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":38,"start_s":39,"end_s":40,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},"65906","Buenas noches, Humberto Costa.",30.56,31.5,{"idx":42,"utterance_id":43,"speaker_name":44,"text":45,"start_s":46,"end_s":47,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},5,"65907","Desconhecido","Buenas noches.",31.56,32.02,{"idx":49,"utterance_id":50,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":51,"start_s":52,"end_s":53,"word_count":54,"indexable":14},6,"65908","Voy a hacer unas preguntas más complicadas aquí, porque quiero tu opinión sobre lo que se discute hoy en el Congreso Nacional.",32.8,39.4,23,{"idx":56,"utterance_id":57,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":58,"start_s":59,"end_s":60,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},7,"65909","El PT tendrá que abordar algunas propuestas.",39.88,42.38,10,{"idx":63,"utterance_id":64,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":65,"start_s":66,"end_s":67,"word_count":68,"indexable":14},8,"65910","Sé que quizá no hables en nombre del partido, porque tal vez aún no haya habido un cierre de cuestión, un debate interno, pero fuiste ministro de Salud durante bastante tiempo y tienes un legado en salud.",43.32,55.26,37,{"idx":70,"utterance_id":71,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":72,"start_s":73,"end_s":74,"word_count":75,"indexable":14},9,"65911","Brasil, desde el punto de vista del financiamiento de la educación y la salud, desde el 88 hasta aquí, ha tenido un avance considerable, sobre todo en nuestro período.",56.24,66.14,24,{"idx":61,"utterance_id":77,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":78,"start_s":79,"end_s":80,"word_count":81,"indexable":14},"65912","Pero la educación... Desde el punto de vista del financiamiento, fue más lejos.",67.04,72.6,13,{"idx":21,"utterance_id":83,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":84,"start_s":85,"end_s":86,"word_count":87,"indexable":14},"65913","Brasil llegó prácticamente al 6% de inversión pública en educación como proporción del PIB.",73.56,79.72,15,{"idx":89,"utterance_id":90,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":91,"start_s":92,"end_s":93,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},12,"65914","Y la salud sigue estancada en el 4%.",80.82,83.02,{"idx":81,"utterance_id":95,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":96,"start_s":97,"end_s":98,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},"65915","Y sabemos que eso es insuficiente.",83.72,85.58,{"idx":13,"utterance_id":100,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":101,"start_s":102,"end_s":103,"word_count":70,"indexable":14},"65916","El 6% para la educación no es ni mucho ni poco.",85.6,89.52,{"idx":87,"utterance_id":105,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":106,"start_s":107,"end_s":108,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},"65917","Es la media de los países de la OCDE.",90.1,92.12,{"idx":110,"utterance_id":111,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":112,"start_s":113,"end_s":114,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},16,"65918","Por lo tanto, Brasil tardó 100 años y con Lula llegó a la media de los países de la OCDE.",93.06,97.64,17,{"idx":115,"utterance_id":117,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":118,"start_s":119,"end_s":120,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},"65919","Entonces, hay que, como mínimo, mantener eso.",98.34,100.52,{"idx":122,"utterance_id":123,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":124,"start_s":125,"end_s":126,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},18,"65920","¿La salud, en manos de quién está?",101.28,102.4,{"idx":35,"utterance_id":128,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":129,"start_s":130,"end_s":131,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},"65921","Todavía hoy está subfinanciada.",102.66,104.68,{"idx":133,"utterance_id":134,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":135,"start_s":136,"end_s":137,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},20,"65922","Si sumas ambos, da un 10%, 6 más 4.",105.68,108.62,{"idx":139,"utterance_id":140,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":141,"start_s":142,"end_s":143,"word_count":144,"indexable":14},21,"65923","Y el gobierno quiere lo siguiente: para dar libertad al gestor público, tiene que ser la suma de ambos y no la vinculación por sector.",108.86,119.02,28,{"idx":146,"utterance_id":147,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":148,"start_s":149,"end_s":150,"word_count":151,"indexable":14},22,"65924","Parece una sutileza, pero en mi opinión no lo es. ¿Cómo ves este tipo de... flexibilización que el gobierno de Bolsonaro... techo del gasto más ese arreglo, no?",120.88,133.7,29,{"idx":54,"utterance_id":153,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":154,"start_s":155,"end_s":156,"word_count":81,"indexable":14},"65925","En lugar de tener una vinculación segregada, vas a tener una vinculación total.",134.66,139.06,{"idx":75,"utterance_id":158,"speaker_name":44,"text":159,"start_s":160,"end_s":161,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},"65926","Bueno, creo que esto, en realidad, en su visión, es solo una etapa.",139.96,144.18,{"idx":163,"utterance_id":164,"speaker_name":44,"text":165,"start_s":166,"end_s":167,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},25,"65927","Creo que quieren llegar a la situación en la que no haya ninguna vinculación.",144.52,149.98,{"idx":169,"utterance_id":170,"speaker_name":44,"text":171,"start_s":172,"end_s":173,"word_count":174,"indexable":14},26,"65928","De cierta forma... Si tuviéramos en cuenta que todos los gestores fueran gestores con compromiso social, con la forma adecuada y honesta de gestionar el recurso público, podría tener cierta lógica.",150.82,168.38,33,{"idx":176,"utterance_id":177,"speaker_name":44,"text":178,"start_s":179,"end_s":180,"word_count":75,"indexable":14},27,"65929","Veo, por ejemplo, a veces, municipios donde el gestor, para cumplir la exigencia de gasto en educación, tiene que emplear cierta creatividad.",168.6,180.68,{"idx":144,"utterance_id":182,"speaker_name":44,"text":183,"start_s":184,"end_s":185,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},"65930","Y a veces esa creatividad ni siquiera es aceptada, por ejemplo, por los tribunales de cuentas.",181.26,185.94,{"idx":151,"utterance_id":187,"speaker_name":44,"text":188,"start_s":189,"end_s":190,"word_count":191,"indexable":14},"65931","Por ejemplo, nuestro alcalde allá en Recife, João Paulo, y luego João da Costa, respondieron a procesos en el Tribunal de Cuentas porque utilizaron un recurso en uniformes, por ejemplo, en la merienda escolar, en otras actividades que el Tribunal de Cuentas entendió que no eran gastos en educación.",186.02,209.88,48,{"idx":193,"utterance_id":194,"speaker_name":44,"text":195,"start_s":196,"end_s":197,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},30,"65932","Al mismo tiempo, en salud, a pesar de que mejoró mucho el financiamiento municipal allí, todavía teníamos carencias.",210.32,218.28,{"idx":199,"utterance_id":200,"speaker_name":44,"text":201,"start_s":202,"end_s":203,"word_count":176,"indexable":14},31,"65933","Entonces, si esa flexibilización fuera, digamos, algo de lo que tuviéramos la convicción de que no va a generar perjuicio a nadie, sería algo bueno.",218.64,230.3,{"idx":205,"utterance_id":206,"speaker_name":44,"text":207,"start_s":208,"end_s":209,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},32,"65934","Pero creo, primero, que esto es solo un paso que están dando.",230.84,234.1,{"idx":174,"utterance_id":211,"speaker_name":44,"text":212,"start_s":213,"end_s":214,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},"65935","Y, segundo, que cada lugar tiene una realidad propia, pero también hay situaciones que son comunes.",234.76,242.76,{"idx":216,"utterance_id":217,"speaker_name":44,"text":218,"start_s":219,"end_s":220,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},34,"65936","Debería mantenerse como está: tener salud y educación con vinculaciones, y que la salud crezca un poco más.",244.48,254.06,{"idx":222,"utterance_id":223,"speaker_name":44,"text":224,"start_s":225,"end_s":226,"word_count":122,"indexable":14},35,"65937","Y la vinculación federal, porque hoy los municipios ya gastan, no solo los 15% en salud que exige la normativa.",254.14,265.28,{"idx":228,"utterance_id":229,"speaker_name":44,"text":230,"start_s":231,"end_s":232,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},36,"65938","De eso, lo mínimo.",265.66,266.44,{"idx":68,"utterance_id":234,"speaker_name":44,"text":235,"start_s":236,"end_s":237,"word_count":54,"indexable":14},"65939","Muchos de ellos están con 28, con 30, y no hay forma de no gastar, porque el alcalde es quien recibe el primer impacto.",266.88,275.36,{"idx":239,"utterance_id":240,"speaker_name":44,"text":241,"start_s":242,"end_s":243,"word_count":146,"indexable":14},38,"65940","Entonces, o gasta, o su gestión quedará destruida en términos de imagen ante la opinión pública.",276.2,285.64,{"idx":245,"utterance_id":246,"speaker_name":44,"text":247,"start_s":248,"end_s":249,"word_count":75,"indexable":14},39,"65941","Los estados que antiguamente no cumplían la exigencia de gasto mínimo... Hoy también todos ellos están gastando más del 12%, quizá incluso más.",286.2,297.94,{"idx":251,"utterance_id":252,"speaker_name":44,"text":253,"start_s":254,"end_s":255,"word_count":228,"indexable":14},40,"65942","Y fue el gobierno federal en nuestro período el que mejoró el gasto; la relación entre gasto federal y gasto estatal y municipal disminuyó mucho, porque hubo un crecimiento de los gastos estatales y municipales, pero aquí creció.",298.36,314.04,{"idx":257,"utterance_id":258,"speaker_name":44,"text":259,"start_s":260,"end_s":261,"word_count":193,"indexable":14},41,"65943","Después de Temer... Ahí la cosa empeoró, porque llegó la PEC del techo del gasto, denunciamos que eso acarrearía necesariamente una caída de los gastos en salud que estaban creciendo.",314.54,328.64,{"idx":263,"utterance_id":264,"speaker_name":44,"text":265,"start_s":266,"end_s":267,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},42,"65944","y realmente resultó.",328.76,330.52,{"idx":269,"utterance_id":270,"speaker_name":44,"text":271,"start_s":272,"end_s":273,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},43,"65945","Y hoy, proporcionalmente, estamos teniendo prácticamente una regresión de gastos.",331.68,338.32,{"idx":275,"utterance_id":276,"speaker_name":44,"text":277,"start_s":278,"end_s":279,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},44,"65946","proporcionales en términos de salud.",339.08,341.04,{"idx":281,"utterance_id":282,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":283,"start_s":284,"end_s":285,"word_count":70,"indexable":14},45,"65947","La inversión per cápita en salud está seguramente cayendo.",342,345.32,{"idx":287,"utterance_id":288,"speaker_name":44,"text":289,"start_s":290,"end_s":291,"word_count":89,"indexable":14},46,"65948","Sí, está cayendo y la calidad de la prestación de los servicios está cayendo.",345.38,349.9,{"idx":293,"utterance_id":294,"speaker_name":44,"text":295,"start_s":296,"end_s":297,"word_count":216,"indexable":14},47,"65949","Ahora están adoptando una propuesta de financiamiento del área de la atención básica, que sale de una lógica que era la de la transferencia global de recursos hacia la exigencia de determinar una clientela.",350.34,365.94,{"idx":191,"utterance_id":299,"speaker_name":44,"text":300,"start_s":301,"end_s":302,"word_count":169,"indexable":14},"65950","Entonces vas a recibir ahora según a quién inscribes, que es, digamos, una forma disfrazada de establecer algún tipo de restricción en la universalización.",366.3,379.52,{"idx":304,"utterance_id":305,"speaker_name":44,"text":306,"start_s":307,"end_s":308,"word_count":269,"indexable":14},49,"65951","Entonces, no veo esas propuestas que presentan como algo que tenga el objetivo de dar mayor flexibilidad al gestor; es mucho más crear un ambiente para que más adelante terminen con todo tipo de vinculación.",380.14,396.32,{"idx":310,"utterance_id":311,"speaker_name":44,"text":312,"start_s":313,"end_s":314,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},50,"65952","Si lo conseguirán, no sé.",396.46,397.54,{"idx":316,"utterance_id":317,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":318,"start_s":319,"end_s":320,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},51,"65953","Aquí en São Paulo, creamos un consejo de hospital de día para abaratar los costos de la atención de complejidad media.",398.06,407.1,{"idx":322,"utterance_id":323,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":324,"start_s":325,"end_s":326,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},52,"65954","Sobre todo cirugías electivas que no implicaban la internación de la persona.",407.5,413.68,{"idx":328,"utterance_id":329,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":330,"start_s":331,"end_s":332,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},53,"65955","La persona se sometía a una cirugía ambulatoria y se iba a casa.",413.84,416.76,{"idx":334,"utterance_id":335,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":336,"start_s":337,"end_s":338,"word_count":87,"indexable":14},54,"65956","¿Ha habido cambios, innovaciones desde el punto de vista de la organización del sistema para abaratar costos?",417.52,424.86,{"idx":340,"utterance_id":341,"speaker_name":44,"text":342,"start_s":343,"end_s":344,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},55,"65957","Sí, ha habido, ya se ha hecho mucho, esa ampliación de la atención básica y también del área.",425.2,433.08,{"idx":346,"utterance_id":347,"speaker_name":44,"text":348,"start_s":349,"end_s":350,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},56,"65958","Del servicio de atención de emergencias, esas cosas han evolucionado bastante.",434.08,439.2,{"idx":352,"utterance_id":353,"speaker_name":44,"text":354,"start_s":355,"end_s":356,"word_count":139,"indexable":14},57,"65959","Las ideas no solo desde el punto de vista del abaratamiento, sino también formas más humanizadas de atención, también forman parte.",441.62,451.84,{"idx":358,"utterance_id":359,"speaker_name":44,"text":360,"start_s":361,"end_s":362,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},58,"65960","de acciones en ese sentido.",451.9,453.8,{"idx":364,"utterance_id":365,"speaker_name":44,"text":366,"start_s":367,"end_s":368,"word_count":89,"indexable":14},59,"65961","El SUS es una experiencia muy rica también en términos de creatividad.",454.22,459.36,{"idx":370,"utterance_id":371,"speaker_name":44,"text":372,"start_s":373,"end_s":374,"word_count":144,"indexable":14},60,"65962","Hicimos en Brasil una reforma de la atención de la salud mental, que es una de las más avanzadas del mundo y que ahora está en pleno proceso de reversión.",459.76,471.44,{"idx":376,"utterance_id":377,"speaker_name":44,"text":378,"start_s":379,"end_s":380,"word_count":122,"indexable":14},61,"65963","Con una visión, digamos, equivocada en el sentido de... proponer soluciones únicas para problemas que son mucho más amplios.",472.54,485.32,{"idx":382,"utterance_id":383,"speaker_name":44,"text":384,"start_s":385,"end_s":386,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},62,"65964","Por ejemplo, cómo afrontar la cuestión de la drogadicción.",485.4,489.26,{"idx":388,"utterance_id":389,"speaker_name":44,"text":390,"start_s":391,"end_s":392,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},63,"65965","Creemos que en algunos casos, por ejemplo, utilizar una comunidad terapéutica es procedente.",490.76,497.62,{"idx":394,"utterance_id":395,"speaker_name":44,"text":396,"start_s":397,"end_s":398,"word_count":151,"indexable":14},64,"65966","Como hay un amplio espectro de acciones para el tratamiento y que muchas veces se adaptan a unas personas y a otras no, entonces puedes... tener esa posibilidad.",497.74,510.82,{"idx":400,"utterance_id":401,"speaker_name":44,"text":402,"start_s":403,"end_s":404,"word_count":169,"indexable":14},65,"65967","Ahora, lo que se está haciendo hoy es negar los aspectos científicos para actuar meramente en un tipo de, digamos, entre comillas, una terapia del comportamiento.",511.26,523.44,{"idx":406,"utterance_id":407,"speaker_name":44,"text":408,"start_s":409,"end_s":410,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},66,"65968","Entonces, eso es un retroceso; no hay control sobre las condiciones en que eso sucede de este lado.",523.94,530.7,{"idx":412,"utterance_id":413,"speaker_name":44,"text":414,"start_s":415,"end_s":416,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},67,"65969","Lo único que hemos conseguido hasta ahora es que no salgan recursos del SUS para financiar cosas así.",531.26,537.22,{"idx":418,"utterance_id":419,"speaker_name":44,"text":420,"start_s":421,"end_s":422,"word_count":304,"indexable":14},68,"65970","Y, por otro lado, dejan de invertir en cosas que han mostrado resultados y que son adecuadas para otras personas, como la internación de... de muy corta duración, la atención ambulatoria, las terapias de grupo, cosas así que hoy intentan presentar como cosas secundarias y solo invertir en esto.",537.8,565.6,{"idx":424,"utterance_id":425,"speaker_name":44,"text":426,"start_s":427,"end_s":428,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},69,"65971","Pero hay muchas cosas creativas dentro del SUS.",565.66,567.9,{"idx":430,"utterance_id":431,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":432,"start_s":433,"end_s":434,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},70,"65972","Ahora, Humberto, estamos viviendo una situación inédita en el país, que es un conjunto de retrocesos en políticas públicas.",567.96,579.22,{"idx":436,"utterance_id":437,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":438,"start_s":439,"end_s":440,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},71,"65973","Algunos más visibles que otros.",580.16,582.2,{"idx":442,"utterance_id":443,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":444,"start_s":445,"end_s":446,"word_count":257,"indexable":14},72,"65974","La prensa ha dado mucha cobertura a temas como la cultura; la cultura está en el punto de mira del gobierno de Bolsonaro: censura, hostilidad, recorte de financiamiento; la cuestión ambiental está siendo discutida mundialmente, el comportamiento de Brasil frente a la protección de su propio medio ambiente.",582.66,606.58,{"idx":448,"utterance_id":449,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":450,"start_s":451,"end_s":452,"word_count":176,"indexable":14},73,"65975","Incluso está sirviendo de obstáculo a acuerdos internacionales de cooperación comercial, un pretexto para no firmar acuerdos con Brasil; es decir, está perjudicando la economía brasileña.",607.22,618.2,{"idx":454,"utterance_id":455,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":456,"start_s":457,"end_s":458,"word_count":205,"indexable":14},74,"65976","En el área de educación, posiblemente podemos estar yendo hacia el tercer ministro; ya se habla, ya se pide públicamente la dimisión de esa figura, cuanto menos curiosa, que ocupa el Ministerio de Educación.",619.32,637.2,{"idx":460,"utterance_id":461,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":462,"start_s":463,"end_s":464,"word_count":81,"indexable":14},75,"65977","el cargo que fue de Gustavo Capanema, para citar un gran nombre.",637.98,642.34,{"idx":466,"utterance_id":467,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":468,"start_s":469,"end_s":470,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},76,"65978","Tenemos problemas en el área de derechos humanos, que también han llamado mucho la atención.",643.66,649.62,{"idx":472,"utterance_id":473,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":474,"start_s":475,"end_s":476,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},77,"65979","Ni voy a hablar de relaciones exteriores, porque Brasil perdió completamente la brújula de lo que pretende.",650.1,657.96,{"idx":478,"utterance_id":479,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":480,"start_s":481,"end_s":482,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},78,"65980","Hoy no sabemos cuál es la política exterior brasileña, que era algo que se había consolidado durante décadas.",659.04,666.04,{"idx":484,"utterance_id":485,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":486,"start_s":487,"end_s":488,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},79,"65981","Hoy no sabemos hacia dónde camina Brasil desde el punto de vista de sus relaciones internacionales.",666.8,673.4,{"idx":490,"utterance_id":491,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":492,"start_s":493,"end_s":494,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},80,"65982","La salud, ya has mencionado algunos retrocesos.",674.88,677.18,{"idx":496,"utterance_id":497,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":498,"start_s":499,"end_s":500,"word_count":54,"indexable":14},81,"65983","¿Cómo se está organizando la oposición en el Congreso Nacional, tú que eres líder del principal partido de oposición en el Senado Federal?",677.24,684.56,{"idx":502,"utterance_id":503,"speaker_name":44,"text":504,"start_s":505,"end_s":506,"word_count":81,"indexable":14},82,"65984","Bueno, tenemos cierta dificultad porque hoy tenemos un tamaño bastante reducido.",685.18,693,{"idx":508,"utterance_id":509,"speaker_name":44,"text":510,"start_s":511,"end_s":512,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},83,"65985","El PT, por ejemplo, llegó a tener... 13, en algunos momentos hasta 14 senadores; hoy está limitado a seis.",693.36,702.54,{"idx":514,"utterance_id":515,"speaker_name":44,"text":516,"start_s":517,"end_s":518,"word_count":89,"indexable":14},84,"65986","La oposición toda junta alcanza alrededor de 20, 21, 22 senadores.",702.82,710.22,{"idx":520,"utterance_id":521,"speaker_name":44,"text":522,"start_s":523,"end_s":524,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},85,"65987","De 81.",710.36,711.24,{"idx":526,"utterance_id":527,"speaker_name":44,"text":528,"start_s":529,"end_s":530,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},86,"65988","Sí, en un total de 81.",711.42,713.52,{"idx":532,"utterance_id":533,"speaker_name":44,"text":534,"start_s":535,"end_s":536,"word_count":346,"indexable":14},87,"65989","La agenda económica es donde, digamos, más estamos sufriendo porque... El gobierno, a pesar de no tener un gran apoyo en el Congreso, los parlamentarios, a diferencia de otros gobiernos, no se asumen como base del gobierno, pero la agenda económica coincide con la visión de la mayoría de los partidos conservadores, de los medios, del sistema financiero.",714.68,741.48,{"idx":538,"utterance_id":539,"speaker_name":44,"text":540,"start_s":541,"end_s":542,"word_count":81,"indexable":14},88,"65990","que, en verdad, tiene un peso muy importante allí en términos de sus intereses.",742.58,749.22,{"idx":544,"utterance_id":545,"speaker_name":44,"text":546,"start_s":547,"end_s":548,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},89,"65991","En esas áreas han avanzado, pero no han conseguido hacer lo que realmente quisieran que ocurriera.",749.64,759.66,{"idx":550,"utterance_id":551,"speaker_name":44,"text":552,"start_s":553,"end_s":554,"word_count":176,"indexable":14},90,"65992","Por ejemplo, el debate sobre el Estatuto del Desarme, a pesar de que hemos tenido... pérdidas importantes, no llegó ni de cerca a lo que ellos quisieran hacer.",760.26,771.76,{"idx":556,"utterance_id":557,"speaker_name":44,"text":558,"start_s":559,"end_s":560,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},91,"65993","Hubo una resistencia con respecto a eso.",771.88,776.46,{"idx":562,"utterance_id":563,"speaker_name":44,"text":564,"start_s":565,"end_s":566,"word_count":174,"indexable":14},92,"65994","Otras medidas en términos de ciertos valores, algo que se decía que iba a avanzar muy rápidamente en el Congreso Nacional, era la prohibición definitiva del aborto, incluso en aquellas condiciones en las que se contempla el aborto.",776.92,795.52,{"idx":568,"utterance_id":569,"speaker_name":44,"text":570,"start_s":571,"end_s":572,"word_count":193,"indexable":14},93,"65995","post-violación, aborto en situaciones en que existe el riesgo de muerte de la gestante y aborto en caso de anencefalia, que intentaron por todos los medios hacer que avanzara.",795.84,810.74,{"idx":574,"utterance_id":575,"speaker_name":44,"text":576,"start_s":577,"end_s":578,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},94,"65996","y eso no avanzó.",810.92,812.1,{"idx":580,"utterance_id":581,"speaker_name":44,"text":582,"start_s":583,"end_s":584,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},95,"65997","Hubo una resistencia.",812.74,814.6,{"idx":586,"utterance_id":587,"speaker_name":44,"text":588,"start_s":589,"end_s":590,"word_count":163,"indexable":14},96,"65998","La cuestión de la mayoría de edad penal, la modificación de la mayoría penal, que también era una bandera que ellos defendieron todo el tiempo, tampoco prosperó.",815,826.76,{"idx":592,"utterance_id":593,"speaker_name":44,"text":594,"start_s":595,"end_s":596,"word_count":169,"indexable":14},97,"65999","Ahora quieren introducir ese... el derecho de matar para los policías, es la eximente de ilicitud; no creo que vaya a pasar con mucha facilidad, no.",827.26,842,{"idx":598,"utterance_id":599,"speaker_name":44,"text":600,"start_s":601,"end_s":602,"word_count":163,"indexable":14},98,"66000","Entonces, existen algunos temas donde, en el área ambiental, en esa área de derechos humanos, incluso en el área de la salud, hay algunas cosas que intentaron hacer.",842.06,853.4,{"idx":604,"utterance_id":605,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":606,"start_s":607,"end_s":608,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},99,"66001","Ahora, a la hora de gravar a los desempleados, están todos juntos.",853.44,855.6,{"idx":610,"utterance_id":611,"speaker_name":44,"text":612,"start_s":613,"end_s":614,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},100,"66002","Sí, ahí, con seguridad.",855.66,856.78,{"idx":616,"utterance_id":617,"speaker_name":44,"text":618,"start_s":619,"end_s":620,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},101,"66003","Ahí, Rodrigo Maia, PSDB...",856.84,858.38,{"idx":622,"utterance_id":623,"speaker_name":44,"text":624,"start_s":625,"end_s":626,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},102,"66004","Todos, todos, todos.",858.68,859.64,{"idx":628,"utterance_id":629,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":630,"start_s":631,"end_s":632,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},103,"66005","Van a gravar al desempleado.",859.7,860.88,{"idx":634,"utterance_id":635,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":636,"start_s":637,"end_s":638,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},104,"66006","¿Crees que esa... la medida va a aprobarse?",860.92,863.46,{"idx":640,"utterance_id":641,"speaker_name":44,"text":642,"start_s":643,"end_s":644,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},105,"66007","No, no lo creo.",863.72,864.58,{"idx":646,"utterance_id":647,"speaker_name":44,"text":648,"start_s":649,"end_s":650,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},106,"66008","¿Esa de gravar al desempleado?",864.76,866.14,{"idx":652,"utterance_id":653,"speaker_name":44,"text":642,"start_s":654,"end_s":655,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},107,"66009",866.18,866.8,{"idx":657,"utterance_id":658,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":659,"start_s":660,"end_s":661,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},108,"66010","Porque ahí tendrían un poco de vergüenza.",867.24,869.48,{"idx":663,"utterance_id":664,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":665,"start_s":666,"end_s":667,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},109,"66011","todo el mundo la tiene.",869.58,870.14,{"idx":669,"utterance_id":670,"speaker_name":44,"text":671,"start_s":672,"end_s":673,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},110,"66012","Y todo el mundo sabe que la población no es tonta como para no entender lo que eso representa.",870.32,876.22,{"idx":675,"utterance_id":676,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":677,"start_s":678,"end_s":679,"word_count":87,"indexable":14},111,"66013","¿Cómo llegamos al punto de que alguien proponga algo así en Brasil?",876.5,880,{"idx":681,"utterance_id":682,"speaker_name":44,"text":683,"start_s":684,"end_s":685,"word_count":54,"indexable":14},112,"66014","Una cosa realmente absurda en esa visión ultraliberal que tienen y, sobre todo, la impresión de que lo pueden todo.",882.02,890.6,{"idx":687,"utterance_id":688,"speaker_name":44,"text":689,"start_s":690,"end_s":691,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},113,"66015","Y ellos juegan mucho a tantear cómo reaccionan las cosas.",892.58,896.68,{"idx":693,"utterance_id":694,"speaker_name":44,"text":695,"start_s":696,"end_s":697,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},114,"66016","Lanzan un globo sonda así, pero con el cálculo de que puede que no cuaje, que no sea aceptado.",897.48,904.76,{"idx":699,"utterance_id":700,"speaker_name":44,"text":701,"start_s":702,"end_s":703,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},115,"66017","Entonces trabajan todo el tiempo con la idea de poner el problema sobre la mesa y luego retirarlo, en fin.",905.6,912.08,{"idx":705,"utterance_id":706,"speaker_name":44,"text":707,"start_s":708,"end_s":709,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},116,"66018","Pero realmente...",912.82,913.52,{"idx":711,"utterance_id":712,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":713,"start_s":714,"end_s":715,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},117,"66019","Juegan un poco con la confusión.",913.64,915.3,{"idx":717,"utterance_id":718,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":719,"start_s":720,"end_s":721,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},118,"66020","Mezclan familia con gobierno.",915.58,917.76,{"idx":723,"utterance_id":724,"speaker_name":44,"text":725,"start_s":726,"end_s":727,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},119,"66021","Sí, pero aun así, cosas que... pensé que jamás pasarían, por ejemplo, dentro de esa reforma de la Previdencia, pasaron.",917.82,925.78,{"idx":729,"utterance_id":730,"speaker_name":44,"text":731,"start_s":732,"end_s":733,"word_count":139,"indexable":14},120,"66022","Significa que hoy en el Congreso hay una sintonía muy grande entre esa agenda económica ultraliberal y lo que ellos representan allí.",926.14,937.22,{"idx":735,"utterance_id":736,"speaker_name":44,"text":737,"start_s":738,"end_s":739,"word_count":70,"indexable":14},121,"66023","Obvio que en algún momento se les exigirá cuentas.",938.52,941,{"idx":741,"utterance_id":742,"speaker_name":44,"text":743,"start_s":744,"end_s":745,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},122,"66024","El año que viene vamos a tener elecciones.",941.6,943.18,{"idx":747,"utterance_id":748,"speaker_name":44,"text":749,"start_s":750,"end_s":751,"word_count":169,"indexable":14},123,"66025","Los diputados o senadores que votaron por la retirada de varios derechos y que quieren ser candidatos a alcalde, por ejemplo, de alguna manera serán responsabilizados.",943.94,954.36,{"idx":753,"utterance_id":754,"speaker_name":44,"text":755,"start_s":756,"end_s":757,"word_count":322,"indexable":14},124,"66026","Por ejemplo, esas reformas que van a ser votadas el año que viene no fueron votadas ahora: ese ajuste fiscal, esa cuestión de reforma administrativa que ellos aún no enviaron, parece que están dando un tiempo; ciertamente tendrán dificultad para ser votadas el año que viene por la cuestión electoral.",954.9,974.6,{"idx":759,"utterance_id":760,"speaker_name":44,"text":761,"start_s":762,"end_s":763,"word_count":89,"indexable":14},125,"66027","Es un momento en el que la población podrá manifestarse y reclamar.",974.8,978,{"idx":765,"utterance_id":766,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":767,"start_s":768,"end_s":769,"word_count":87,"indexable":14},126,"66028","¿Guedes ya envió lo que anunció, esa carta en blanco para vender patrimonio público?",979.08,984.44,{"idx":771,"utterance_id":772,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":773,"start_s":774,"end_s":775,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},127,"66029","¿Eso ya está en el Congreso Nacional?",984.52,985.98,{"idx":777,"utterance_id":778,"speaker_name":44,"text":779,"start_s":780,"end_s":781,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},128,"66030","Creo que todavía no.",986.24,987.36,{"idx":783,"utterance_id":784,"speaker_name":44,"text":785,"start_s":786,"end_s":787,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},129,"66031","¿Solo fue anunciado?",988.04,988.9,{"idx":789,"utterance_id":790,"speaker_name":44,"text":779,"start_s":791,"end_s":792,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},130,"66032",989,990,{"idx":794,"utterance_id":795,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":796,"start_s":797,"end_s":798,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},131,"66033","Pero una carta en blanco como esa, ¿una especie de poder del Congreso para que el Ejecutivo venda lo que le parezca?",990.06,997.04,{"idx":800,"utterance_id":801,"speaker_name":44,"text":802,"start_s":803,"end_s":804,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},132,"66034","Creo que se aprobará.",997.36,998.16,{"idx":806,"utterance_id":807,"speaker_name":44,"text":802,"start_s":808,"end_s":809,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},133,"66035",999,999.7,{"idx":811,"utterance_id":812,"speaker_name":44,"text":813,"start_s":814,"end_s":815,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},134,"66036","Lamentablemente, creo que se aprobará.",999.74,1000.96,{"idx":817,"utterance_id":818,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":819,"start_s":820,"end_s":821,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},135,"66037","O sea, si quieren vender el Banco do Brasil, si quieren vender la Caixa Econômica Federal...",1001.2,1005,{"idx":823,"utterance_id":824,"speaker_name":44,"text":825,"start_s":826,"end_s":827,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},136,"66038","Creo que allí tienen respaldo.",1005.12,1007.02,{"idx":829,"utterance_id":830,"speaker_name":44,"text":831,"start_s":832,"end_s":833,"word_count":191,"indexable":14},137,"66039","Hasta en el Congreso anterior era un poco más difícil, pero si no lo hay —lógico—, si hay movilización social, si se hace un trabajo para mantener de forma activa, no pasiva, la valoración que la población tiene sobre esto, porque está en contra.",1007.84,1028.28,{"idx":835,"utterance_id":836,"speaker_name":44,"text":837,"start_s":838,"end_s":839,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},138,"66040","Todas las encuestas muestran que la población está en contra de esa privatización indiscriminada.",1029.04,1033.74,{"idx":841,"utterance_id":842,"speaker_name":44,"text":843,"start_s":844,"end_s":845,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},139,"66041","Pero si no existe un movimiento de resistencia con cierta fuerza, ellos lo aprobarán con toda certeza.",1033.82,1040.18,{"idx":847,"utterance_id":848,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":849,"start_s":850,"end_s":851,"word_count":199,"indexable":14},140,"66042","Los rumores de que los bancos públicos, sobre todo el Banco do Brasil y la Caixa, están siendo preparados para la venta... En Brasilia, ¿eso tiene respaldo en los datos que ustedes reciben?",1040.66,1053.78,{"idx":853,"utterance_id":854,"speaker_name":44,"text":855,"start_s":856,"end_s":857,"word_count":81,"indexable":14},141,"66043","Es difícil saber si hay respaldo en el Congreso para aprobar cosas así.",1053.96,1058.6,{"idx":859,"utterance_id":860,"speaker_name":44,"text":861,"start_s":862,"end_s":863,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},142,"66044","Pero hay movimiento por parte del gobierno.",1058.94,1060.32,{"idx":865,"utterance_id":866,"speaker_name":44,"text":867,"start_s":868,"end_s":869,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},143,"66045","Con toda certeza.",1060.36,1061.28,{"idx":871,"utterance_id":872,"speaker_name":44,"text":873,"start_s":874,"end_s":875,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},144,"66046","Y ellos no lo niegan.",1061.36,1062.3,{"idx":877,"utterance_id":878,"speaker_name":44,"text":879,"start_s":880,"end_s":881,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},145,"66047","Ellos dicen esto claramente.",1062.38,1065.06,{"idx":883,"utterance_id":884,"speaker_name":44,"text":885,"start_s":886,"end_s":887,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},146,"66048","Claramente, en cualquier oportunidad, lo dicen claramente.",1065.16,1068.24,{"idx":889,"utterance_id":890,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":891,"start_s":892,"end_s":893,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},147,"66049","Ni siquiera es conversación de pasillos.",1068.28,1069.74,{"idx":895,"utterance_id":896,"speaker_name":44,"text":897,"start_s":898,"end_s":899,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},148,"66050","No, no es conversación de pasillos.",1069.82,1071.16,{"idx":901,"utterance_id":902,"speaker_name":44,"text":903,"start_s":904,"end_s":905,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},149,"66051","Se están haciendo estudios.",1071.22,1073.1,{"idx":907,"utterance_id":908,"speaker_name":44,"text":909,"start_s":910,"end_s":911,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},150,"66052","Ya hay determinadas actividades que estos bancos realizan que están eliminando o transfiriendo al sector privado.",1073.22,1083.18,{"idx":913,"utterance_id":914,"speaker_name":44,"text":915,"start_s":916,"end_s":917,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},151,"66053","No tengo duda de que esto forma parte del objetivo de este gobierno en el área económica.",1083.54,1089.32,{"idx":919,"utterance_id":920,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":921,"start_s":922,"end_s":923,"word_count":193,"indexable":14},152,"66054","Ahora, he estado observando, desde mi punto de vista, el gobierno de Lula, Lula específicamente, él mismo tomó la decisión, pero creo que hubo dos movimientos muy importantes para blindar...",1089.72,1107.12,{"idx":925,"utterance_id":926,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":927,"start_s":928,"end_s":929,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},153,"66055","la economía brasileña de una turbulencia mayor.",1107.66,1110.72,{"idx":931,"utterance_id":932,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":933,"start_s":934,"end_s":935,"word_count":287,"indexable":14},154,"66056","Creo que resistimos en 2008 en gran parte por eso, y atribuyo la crisis de 2015-2016 más a la crisis política y al sabotaje que se hizo contra el gobierno de Dilma que propiamente a los eventuales errores que ella pudo haber cometido en el primer mandato.",1111.48,1129.12,{"idx":937,"utterance_id":938,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":939,"start_s":940,"end_s":941,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},155,"66057","Me refiero específicamente a la acumulación de reservas cambiarias.",1130.66,1135,{"idx":943,"utterance_id":944,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":945,"start_s":946,"end_s":947,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},156,"66058","Lula entregó con casi 300; Dilma llegó a casi 400 mil millones de dólares en reservas.",1137.02,1142.14,{"idx":949,"utterance_id":950,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":951,"start_s":952,"end_s":953,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},157,"66059","Y a las inversiones masivas que se hicieron en investigación en Petrobras, que nos permitieron encontrar el pre-sal.",1142.88,1151.74,{"idx":955,"utterance_id":956,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":957,"start_s":958,"end_s":959,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},158,"66060","El pre-sal no fue un golpe de suerte.",1152.4,1154.14,{"idx":961,"utterance_id":962,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":963,"start_s":964,"end_s":965,"word_count":146,"indexable":14},159,"66061","El pre-sal fue fruto del hecho de que Lula mandó poner dinero en investigación, perforar pozos para entender nuestra geología.",1155.28,1165.68,{"idx":967,"utterance_id":968,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":969,"start_s":970,"end_s":971,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},160,"66062","Al fin y al cabo, ¿cuál era nuestro potencial de producción petrolífera?",1166.88,1169.92,{"idx":973,"utterance_id":974,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":975,"start_s":976,"end_s":977,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},161,"66063","Un país que tiene pre-sal y 400 mil millones en reservas cambiarias es un país que se impone en el escenario internacional.",1171.3,1176.98,{"idx":979,"utterance_id":980,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":981,"start_s":982,"end_s":983,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},162,"66064","Entonces, nadie va a andar jugando con Brasil, con la economía brasileña, sabiendo que se posee esa riqueza.",1177.02,1186.02,{"idx":985,"utterance_id":986,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":987,"start_s":988,"end_s":989,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},163,"66065","Sin embargo, Guedes ya ha ido quemando parte de ese stock, tanto del pre-sal como de las reservas cambiarias.",1186.78,1194.3,{"idx":991,"utterance_id":992,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":993,"start_s":994,"end_s":995,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},164,"66066","¿Se están discutiendo en Brasilia las consecuencias de que el gobierno de Bolsonaro empiece a quemar aquello que nos blindaba?",1195.18,1202.96,{"idx":997,"utterance_id":998,"speaker_name":44,"text":999,"start_s":1000,"end_s":1001,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},165,"66067","Específicamente este tema, no veo mucho debate.",1204.24,1209.98,{"idx":1003,"utterance_id":1004,"speaker_name":44,"text":1005,"start_s":1006,"end_s":1007,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},166,"66068","Hemos intentado traer esa discusión.",1210.06,1213.2,{"idx":1009,"utterance_id":1010,"speaker_name":44,"text":1011,"start_s":1012,"end_s":1013,"word_count":263,"indexable":14},167,"66069","Lo que hemos debatido mucho y tratado de señalar es que el gobierno está abandonando toda la posibilidad de, usando sus mecanismos propios y en particular el papel de algunas empresas estatales, promover el desarrollo.",1213.78,1238.14,{"idx":1015,"utterance_id":1016,"speaker_name":44,"text":1017,"start_s":1018,"end_s":1019,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},168,"66070","Te voy a dar un ejemplo.",1238.18,1239.3,{"idx":1021,"utterance_id":1022,"speaker_name":44,"text":1023,"start_s":1024,"end_s":1025,"word_count":89,"indexable":14},169,"66071","Hablaste del pre-sal, que es algo muy importante, extremadamente relevante.",1239.38,1243.84,{"idx":1027,"utterance_id":1028,"speaker_name":44,"text":1029,"start_s":1030,"end_s":1031,"word_count":176,"indexable":14},170,"66072","Pero, por ejemplo, en términos de desarrollo regional... Lo que Petrobras hizo con algunas acciones fue algo extremadamente importante y que ahora está completamente desarticulado.",1244.46,1261.34,{"idx":1033,"utterance_id":1034,"speaker_name":44,"text":1035,"start_s":1036,"end_s":1037,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},171,"66073","Por ejemplo, cuando Lula decidió que Transpetro debería comprar barcos en Brasil, la industria naval floreció.",1261.46,1271.04,{"idx":1039,"utterance_id":1040,"speaker_name":44,"text":1041,"start_s":1042,"end_s":1043,"word_count":54,"indexable":14},172,"66074","Floreció y en poco tiempo desarrolló tecnología que en breve pondría a Brasil en condiciones de competir con cualquier astillero del mundo.",1271.94,1283.6,{"idx":1045,"utterance_id":1046,"speaker_name":44,"text":1047,"start_s":1048,"end_s":1049,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},173,"66075","Voy a mostrar Pernambuco.",1283.66,1284.92,{"idx":1051,"utterance_id":1052,"speaker_name":44,"text":1053,"start_s":1054,"end_s":1055,"word_count":70,"indexable":14},174,"66076","Pernambuco tuvo dos astilleros, llegó a tener 12 mil.",1285.16,1288.58,{"idx":1057,"utterance_id":1058,"speaker_name":44,"text":1059,"start_s":1060,"end_s":1061,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},175,"66077","trabajadores en esos astilleros con los principales encargos para Transpetro.",1289,1296.12,{"idx":1063,"utterance_id":1064,"speaker_name":44,"text":1065,"start_s":1066,"end_s":1067,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},176,"66078","Hoy, los dos astilleros están prácticamente cerrados.",1296.3,1299.72,{"idx":1069,"utterance_id":1070,"speaker_name":44,"text":1071,"start_s":1072,"end_s":1073,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},177,"66079","Uno tiene 150, el otro tiene 200 trabajadores.",1299.8,1304.18,{"idx":1075,"utterance_id":1076,"speaker_name":44,"text":1077,"start_s":1078,"end_s":1079,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},178,"66080","En Pernambuco, la refinería generó cerca de 25 mil empleos.",1304.6,1309.62,{"idx":1081,"utterance_id":1082,"speaker_name":44,"text":1083,"start_s":1084,"end_s":1085,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},179,"66081","No llegó a ser concluida.",1310.68,1312.92,{"idx":1087,"utterance_id":1088,"speaker_name":44,"text":1089,"start_s":1090,"end_s":1091,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},180,"66082","Están en un proceso de privatización de esas empresas.",1315.18,1319.74,{"idx":1093,"utterance_id":1094,"speaker_name":44,"text":1095,"start_s":1096,"end_s":1097,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},181,"66083","Allí tuvimos el inicio de una industria petroquímica también y todas esas inversiones trajeron otras.",1320.2,1330.1,{"idx":1099,"utterance_id":1100,"speaker_name":44,"text":1101,"start_s":1102,"end_s":1103,"word_count":245,"indexable":14},182,"66084","Creo que lo peor de todo lo que estamos viviendo en este momento es la renuncia a ese papel y el tratamiento de empresas relevantes como la propia Petrobras, simplemente como una... una empresa privada más.",1330.84,1347.4,{"idx":1105,"utterance_id":1106,"speaker_name":44,"text":1107,"start_s":1108,"end_s":1109,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},183,"66085","Entonces las opciones no tienen en cuenta el interés de Brasil, sino el interés de los accionistas.",1347.9,1355.34,{"idx":1111,"utterance_id":1112,"speaker_name":44,"text":1113,"start_s":1114,"end_s":1115,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},184,"66086","Y por eso perdemos un instrumento importante que se podría tener para impulsar el desarrollo.",1356.36,1364.2,{"idx":1117,"utterance_id":1118,"speaker_name":44,"text":1119,"start_s":1120,"end_s":1121,"word_count":54,"indexable":14},185,"66087","Incluso los recursos que están obteniendo con esa quema de empresas o del pre-sal, no los están destinando a invertir en nada.",1364.62,1373.46,{"idx":1123,"utterance_id":1124,"speaker_name":44,"text":1125,"start_s":1126,"end_s":1127,"word_count":87,"indexable":14},186,"66088","Es para pagar la deuda, para promover el equilibrio fiscal, reducir el déficit público.",1373.9,1379.36,{"idx":1129,"utterance_id":1130,"speaker_name":44,"text":1131,"start_s":1132,"end_s":1133,"word_count":146,"indexable":14},187,"66089","Entonces, es muy preocupante para nosotros porque... A pesar de todo ese discurso de que vendrá inversión extranjera, eso no ha ocurrido hasta ahora.",1379.76,1389.6,{"idx":1135,"utterance_id":1136,"speaker_name":44,"text":1137,"start_s":1138,"end_s":1139,"word_count":205,"indexable":14},188,"66090","Incluso con todas esas reformas que hicieron para abaratar la mano de obra, para reducir el costo social de las empresas, todo eso no resultó en lo que decían que iba a pasar.",1389.72,1404.64,{"idx":1141,"utterance_id":1142,"speaker_name":44,"text":1143,"start_s":1144,"end_s":1145,"word_count":205,"indexable":14},189,"66091","Y una gran preocupación nuestra con la privatización, el propio presidente Lula habla mucho de eso, es que están eliminando instrumentos que más adelante podrían ser utilizados para revertir esta situación.",1406.04,1421.12,{"idx":1147,"utterance_id":1148,"speaker_name":44,"text":1149,"start_s":1150,"end_s":1151,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},190,"66092","¿Como palancas, no?",1421.62,1422.5,{"idx":1153,"utterance_id":1154,"speaker_name":44,"text":1155,"start_s":1156,"end_s":1157,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},191,"66093","Exactamente.",1422.7,1423.36,{"idx":1159,"utterance_id":1160,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1161,"start_s":1162,"end_s":1163,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},192,"66094","Humberto, los partidos progresistas, hablando de los clásicos, PT, PSOL, PCdoB, PDT, PSB, ¿estos partidos están alineados?",1424.32,1432.94,{"idx":1165,"utterance_id":1166,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1167,"start_s":1168,"end_s":1169,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},193,"66095","¿en comunión de valores y propósitos en torno a una agenda progresista?",1434.56,1439.52,{"idx":1171,"utterance_id":1172,"speaker_name":44,"text":1173,"start_s":1174,"end_s":1175,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},194,"66096","Sí, inclusive eso fue una buena constatación, porque, en un primer momento, hubo un cierto intento de aislamiento del PT.",1440.66,1451.04,{"idx":1177,"utterance_id":1178,"speaker_name":44,"text":1179,"start_s":1180,"end_s":1181,"word_count":205,"indexable":14},195,"66097","El PDT, principalmente a partir de las posiciones de Ciro Gomes, intentó desarrollar una articulación con... PSB, PCdoB, que trataba de excluir al PT de la formación de bloques, de la participación en el ejercicio de las liderazgos.",1452.46,1470.6,{"idx":1183,"utterance_id":1184,"speaker_name":44,"text":1185,"start_s":1186,"end_s":1187,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},196,"66098","Estoy hablando del Congreso Nacional, ¿cierto?",1471.32,1474.86,{"idx":1189,"utterance_id":1190,"speaker_name":44,"text":1191,"start_s":1192,"end_s":1193,"word_count":81,"indexable":14},197,"66099","Pero la práctica terminó haciendo que hoy actuemos de forma articulada.",1475.66,1484.7,{"idx":1195,"utterance_id":1196,"speaker_name":44,"text":1197,"start_s":1198,"end_s":1199,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},198,"66100","Tanto en la Cámara de Diputados como en el Senado.",1485.32,1486.94,{"idx":1201,"utterance_id":1202,"speaker_name":44,"text":1203,"start_s":1204,"end_s":1205,"word_count":70,"indexable":14},199,"66101","En el Senado, ese intento de aislamiento aún tuvo éxito.",1487,1490.16,{"idx":1207,"utterance_id":1208,"speaker_name":44,"text":1209,"start_s":1210,"end_s":1211,"word_count":169,"indexable":14},200,"66102","Hoy, por ejemplo, el bloque de la minoría, que es formalmente la oposición, es más grande que nuestro bloque y no formamos parte de ese bloque.",1490.76,1501.4,{"idx":1213,"utterance_id":1214,"speaker_name":44,"text":1215,"start_s":1216,"end_s":1217,"word_count":89,"indexable":14},201,"66103","Pero, en la práctica, hemos trabajado juntos en casi todos los temas.",1502.34,1507.56,{"idx":1219,"utterance_id":1220,"speaker_name":44,"text":1221,"start_s":1222,"end_s":1223,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},202,"66104","Es decir, la práctica nos obligó a construir una unidad.",1507.62,1513.82,{"idx":1225,"utterance_id":1226,"speaker_name":44,"text":1227,"start_s":1228,"end_s":1229,"word_count":163,"indexable":14},203,"66105","Y esa construcción de unidad, en la práctica, está haciendo que abramos otros diálogos que van más allá de la lucha parlamentaria.",1514.32,1523.82,{"idx":1231,"utterance_id":1232,"speaker_name":44,"text":1233,"start_s":1234,"end_s":1235,"word_count":89,"indexable":14},204,"66106","También desde el punto de vista de la lucha social... Eso también se materializó.",1524.4,1530.82,{"idx":1237,"utterance_id":1238,"speaker_name":44,"text":1239,"start_s":1240,"end_s":1241,"word_count":70,"indexable":14},205,"66107","Y creo que vamos por buen camino.",1531.38,1534.8,{"idx":1243,"utterance_id":1244,"speaker_name":44,"text":1245,"start_s":1246,"end_s":1247,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},206,"66108","Por eso tengo cierta preocupación.",1535.34,1537.78,{"idx":1249,"utterance_id":1250,"speaker_name":44,"text":1251,"start_s":1252,"end_s":1253,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},207,"66109","cuando, ante, por ejemplo, una elección como la del año que viene, el PT pueda asumir cierta posición.",1538.48,1547.72,{"idx":1255,"utterance_id":1256,"speaker_name":44,"text":1257,"start_s":1258,"end_s":1259,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},208,"66110","hegemonista, una posición de... Lógico, necesita afirmarse, especialmente en el momento que estamos viviendo.",1548.36,1555.08,{"idx":1261,"utterance_id":1262,"speaker_name":44,"text":1263,"start_s":1264,"end_s":1265,"word_count":263,"indexable":14},209,"66111","Pero estamos haciendo una construcción que puede ser a largo plazo, que no tengamos que pasar por tantas dificultades en términos de conformación de un bloque político para la Aliança de 2022, como pasamos en 2018.",1555.56,1569.62,{"idx":1267,"utterance_id":1268,"speaker_name":44,"text":1269,"start_s":1270,"end_s":1271,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},210,"66112","Entonces, creo que estamos en buen camino.",1570.8,1573.02,{"idx":1273,"utterance_id":1274,"speaker_name":44,"text":1275,"start_s":1276,"end_s":1277,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},211,"66113","No creo que debamos romper eso.",1573.06,1575.48,{"idx":1279,"utterance_id":1280,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1281,"start_s":1282,"end_s":1283,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},212,"66114","¿Ve 2020 como una etapa de un proceso de construcción de un campo progresista más consolidado en Brasil?",1576.7,1587.74,{"idx":1285,"utterance_id":1286,"speaker_name":44,"text":1287,"start_s":1288,"end_s":1289,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},213,"66115","Lo veo.",1587.84,1588.18,{"idx":1291,"utterance_id":1292,"speaker_name":44,"text":1293,"start_s":1294,"end_s":1295,"word_count":257,"indexable":14},214,"66116","Ya sea por la polarización que interesa al propio gobierno y a la extrema derecha, ya sea por el hecho de que hay una polarización real en la sociedad hoy, ya sea por el hecho de que las condiciones en las que vive la población son cosas muy fuertes.",1588.72,1607.36,{"idx":1297,"utterance_id":1298,"speaker_name":44,"text":1299,"start_s":1300,"end_s":1301,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},215,"66117","Tiendo a pensar que la elección del año que viene tendrá un fuerte sesgo nacional.",1608.04,1612.98,{"idx":1303,"utterance_id":1304,"speaker_name":44,"text":1305,"start_s":1306,"end_s":1307,"word_count":87,"indexable":14},216,"66118","No sé si un carácter plebiscitario, pero al menos la discusión nacional estará presente.",1613.72,1621.14,{"idx":1309,"utterance_id":1310,"speaker_name":44,"text":1311,"start_s":1312,"end_s":1313,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},217,"66119","Está permeado, ¿no?",1621.26,1622.5,{"idx":1315,"utterance_id":1316,"speaker_name":44,"text":1317,"start_s":1318,"end_s":1319,"word_count":144,"indexable":14},218,"66120","Incluso si ellos consiguen, como están diciendo, veo previsiones de una forma u otra, algún tipo de... porque ellos también intentarán utilizar eso en el debate.",1623.52,1635.32,{"idx":1321,"utterance_id":1322,"speaker_name":44,"text":1323,"start_s":1324,"end_s":1325,"word_count":176,"indexable":14},219,"66121","Vamos a mostrar que, aunque haya ese crecimiento, se esté dando, si llega a darse, con desigualdad, con profundización de la pobreza, con la miseria.",1636.06,1645.2,{"idx":1327,"utterance_id":1328,"speaker_name":44,"text":1329,"start_s":1330,"end_s":1331,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},220,"66122","Entonces, creo que tiende a eso.",1645.56,1647.7,{"idx":1333,"utterance_id":1334,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1335,"start_s":1336,"end_s":1337,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},221,"66123","Es un crecimiento probablemente bajo con alta concentración.",1647.74,1651.54,{"idx":1339,"utterance_id":1340,"speaker_name":44,"text":1155,"start_s":1341,"end_s":1342,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},222,"66124",1651.7,1652.36,{"idx":1344,"utterance_id":1345,"speaker_name":44,"text":1346,"start_s":1347,"end_s":1348,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},223,"66125","Es lo que está en el horizonte.",1652.56,1653.96,{"idx":1350,"utterance_id":1351,"speaker_name":44,"text":1155,"start_s":1352,"end_s":1353,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},224,"66126",1654.04,1654.7,{"idx":1355,"utterance_id":1356,"speaker_name":44,"text":1357,"start_s":1358,"end_s":1359,"word_count":70,"indexable":14},225,"66127","Y entonces, vea, ¿qué va a pasar?",1655.06,1659,{"idx":1361,"utterance_id":1362,"speaker_name":44,"text":1363,"start_s":1364,"end_s":1365,"word_count":75,"indexable":14},226,"66128","Creo que vamos a tener una elección de 2020 parecida a la de 2016, donde estábamos en ese polo más negativo.",1659.76,1671.44,{"idx":1367,"utterance_id":1368,"speaker_name":44,"text":1369,"start_s":1370,"end_s":1371,"word_count":275,"indexable":14},227,"66129","El año 2000, que fue... una especie de previa de lo que iba a suceder en 2002 y en otros momentos en Brasil donde también las elecciones municipales sirvieron para que la población marcara una posición de insatisfacción con lo que se estaba viviendo en la política del Brasil.",1672.28,1694.78,{"idx":1373,"utterance_id":1374,"speaker_name":44,"text":1375,"start_s":1376,"end_s":1377,"word_count":68,"indexable":14},228,"66130","Y entonces también creo, aunque... Aún existe la visión de que este gobierno es de tal inestabilidad que no estoy seguro de que llegue hasta el final, pero sigue siendo fuerte políticamente.",1695.46,1714.9,{"idx":1379,"utterance_id":1380,"speaker_name":44,"text":1381,"start_s":1382,"end_s":1383,"word_count":176,"indexable":14},229,"66131","Entonces, tengo la impresión de que nuestra estrategia para el año que viene debe ser una estrategia que establezca como objetivo derrotar a la extrema derecha en la elección.",1714.96,1725.54,{"idx":1385,"utterance_id":1386,"speaker_name":44,"text":1387,"start_s":1388,"end_s":1389,"word_count":176,"indexable":14},230,"66132","Para eso, tenemos que juntarnos... No digo en todos los lugares, ni necesariamente que eso se traduzca en alianza, coalición electoral, pero deberíamos tener un objetivo común.",1726.28,1740.88,{"idx":1391,"utterance_id":1392,"speaker_name":44,"text":1393,"start_s":1394,"end_s":1395,"word_count":87,"indexable":14},231,"66133","PT, PSOL, PCdoB, PDT, PSB, incluso Cidadania, que en algunos momentos ha caminado con nosotros.",1741.42,1754.2,{"idx":1397,"utterance_id":1398,"speaker_name":44,"text":1399,"start_s":1400,"end_s":1401,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},232,"66134","Podríamos sentarnos...",1754.62,1755.74,{"idx":1403,"utterance_id":1404,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1405,"start_s":1406,"end_s":1407,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},233,"66135","El Senado, donde hay varios senadores de la Rede.",1755.78,1758.14,{"idx":1409,"utterance_id":1410,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1411,"start_s":1412,"end_s":1413,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},234,"66136","¿Ha habido alineamiento?",1758.86,1761.1,{"idx":1415,"utterance_id":1416,"speaker_name":44,"text":1417,"start_s":1418,"end_s":1419,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},235,"66137","Sí, en algunos momentos importantes, sí.",1761.14,1763.04,{"idx":1421,"utterance_id":1422,"speaker_name":44,"text":1423,"start_s":1424,"end_s":1425,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},236,"66138","En otros, no.",1763.2,1763.84,{"idx":1427,"utterance_id":1428,"speaker_name":44,"text":1429,"start_s":1430,"end_s":1431,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},237,"66139","Pero también ha habido.",1763.94,1765.3,{"idx":1433,"utterance_id":1434,"speaker_name":44,"text":1435,"start_s":1436,"end_s":1437,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},238,"66140","Entonces, ¿qué sucede?",1765.94,1767,{"idx":1439,"utterance_id":1440,"speaker_name":44,"text":1441,"start_s":1442,"end_s":1443,"word_count":122,"indexable":14},239,"66141","En una situación como esa, defiendo la idea de instituir una especie de foro con esos partidos.",1767.22,1772.62,{"idx":1445,"utterance_id":1446,"speaker_name":44,"text":1447,"start_s":1448,"end_s":1449,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},240,"66142","Que establezcan una estrategia común.",1773.16,1774.76,{"idx":1451,"utterance_id":1452,"speaker_name":44,"text":1453,"start_s":1454,"end_s":1455,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},241,"66143","¿Cuál es la estrategia común?",1774.86,1775.8,{"idx":1457,"utterance_id":1458,"speaker_name":44,"text":1459,"start_s":1460,"end_s":1461,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},242,"66144","Derrotar al bolsonarismo y a la extrema derecha.",1775.88,1779.1,{"idx":1463,"utterance_id":1464,"speaker_name":44,"text":1465,"start_s":1466,"end_s":1467,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},243,"66145","¿Eso se puede traducir en coalición en qué lugares?",1779.66,1782.98,{"idx":1469,"utterance_id":1470,"speaker_name":44,"text":1471,"start_s":1472,"end_s":1473,"word_count":81,"indexable":14},244,"66146","Aquí es posible, aquí no lo es. Pero vamos a hacer el mismo discurso.",1783.22,1786.44,{"idx":1475,"utterance_id":1476,"speaker_name":44,"text":1477,"start_s":1478,"end_s":1479,"word_count":144,"indexable":14},245,"66147","Claro, vamos a discutir el tema local, porque no se puede hacer una elección municipal así, pero todos vamos a mantener el mismo discurso desde el punto de vista nacional.",1787.18,1795.28,{"idx":1481,"utterance_id":1482,"speaker_name":44,"text":1483,"start_s":1484,"end_s":1485,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},246,"66148","Eso crea un ambiente que facilita, en mi opinión, una unidad más adelante.",1795.9,1800.64,{"idx":1487,"utterance_id":1488,"speaker_name":44,"text":1489,"start_s":1490,"end_s":1491,"word_count":163,"indexable":14},247,"66149","Ahora, no voy a conseguir... traducir esa unidad en una acción concreta más adelante si ignoro que también existen intereses diferenciados entre esos partidos.",1801.18,1812.58,{"idx":1493,"utterance_id":1494,"speaker_name":44,"text":1495,"start_s":1496,"end_s":1497,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},248,"66150","No quiero dar ningún ejemplo concreto, porque es muy fácil hablar de alianzas en casa de los demás.",1812.64,1818.42,{"idx":1499,"utterance_id":1500,"speaker_name":44,"text":1501,"start_s":1502,"end_s":1503,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},249,"66151","Pero es lógico que hay lugares donde la salida más avanzada no es necesariamente el PT.",1819.3,1826.38,{"idx":1505,"utterance_id":1506,"speaker_name":44,"text":1507,"start_s":1508,"end_s":1509,"word_count":70,"indexable":14},250,"66152","¿Y por qué tenemos que hacer eso, entiendes?",1827.08,1829.82,{"idx":1511,"utterance_id":1512,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1513,"start_s":1514,"end_s":1515,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},251,"66153","Esa es mi opinión.",1830.34,1832.4,{"idx":1517,"utterance_id":1518,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1519,"start_s":1520,"end_s":1521,"word_count":287,"indexable":14},252,"66154","Humberto, no sé si estoy impresionado por haberlo vivido, pero, en mi opinión, el clima cambió un poco, al menos un poco en Brasil, con la salida del presidente Lula y con las dos visitas que ya hizo a Salvador y a Recife.",1833.98,1854,{"idx":1523,"utterance_id":1524,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1525,"start_s":1526,"end_s":1527,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},253,"66155","Usted estuvo con nosotros en Recife, que usted es de allí.",1854.04,1856.88,{"idx":1529,"utterance_id":1530,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1531,"start_s":1532,"end_s":1533,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},254,"66156","En qué medida Lula está entre nosotros... Haciendo debate, haciendo propuestas.",1858.72,1864.38,{"idx":1535,"utterance_id":1536,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1537,"start_s":1538,"end_s":1539,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},255,"66157","¿En qué medida eso puede ayudar a este campo?",1866.34,1870.1,{"idx":1541,"utterance_id":1542,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1543,"start_s":1544,"end_s":1545,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},256,"66158","¿Cuánto cree que eso va a cambiar en el imaginario popular la perspectiva, la renovación de la esperanza de días mejores?",1870.34,1878.62,{"idx":1547,"utterance_id":1548,"speaker_name":44,"text":1549,"start_s":1550,"end_s":1551,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},257,"66159","Creo que cambia mucho, ¿no?",1879.26,1880.44,{"idx":1553,"utterance_id":1554,"speaker_name":44,"text":1555,"start_s":1556,"end_s":1557,"word_count":263,"indexable":14},258,"66160","Para nosotros de la oposición, además, es un refuerzo muy importante, porque, lógico, estamos defendiendo esas posiciones, estamos luchando allí en el Congreso Nacional, pero tuvimos mucha dificultad para llegar a la gente, traducir para esas personas lo que está pasando.",1880.72,1900.22,{"idx":1559,"utterance_id":1560,"speaker_name":44,"text":1561,"start_s":1562,"end_s":1563,"word_count":110,"indexable":14},259,"66161","Temas como, por ejemplo, la soberanía nacional, son temas algo abstractos para la comprensión de la gente.",1900.94,1909.86,{"idx":1565,"utterance_id":1566,"speaker_name":44,"text":1567,"start_s":1568,"end_s":1569,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},260,"66162","Y Lula tiene una capacidad de dialogar con el ciudadano común que es inigualable.",1910.6,1917.02,{"idx":1571,"utterance_id":1572,"speaker_name":44,"text":1573,"start_s":1574,"end_s":1575,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},261,"66163","Eso, por sí solo, es un gran refuerzo.",1917.82,1920.3,{"idx":1577,"utterance_id":1578,"speaker_name":44,"text":1579,"start_s":1580,"end_s":1581,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},262,"66164","Además, tiene capacidad de movilizar.",1920.82,1923.82,{"idx":1583,"utterance_id":1584,"speaker_name":44,"text":1585,"start_s":1586,"end_s":1587,"word_count":89,"indexable":14},263,"66165","Es impresionante lo que vimos allí en Recife la semana pasada.",1924.16,1928.56,{"idx":1589,"utterance_id":1590,"speaker_name":44,"text":1591,"start_s":1592,"end_s":1593,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},264,"66166","No es poca cosa.",1928.96,1929.92,{"idx":1595,"utterance_id":1596,"speaker_name":44,"text":1597,"start_s":1598,"end_s":1599,"word_count":63,"indexable":14},265,"66167","¿Qué liderazgo político hay en Brasil hoy?",1930.58,1932.94,{"idx":1601,"utterance_id":1602,"speaker_name":44,"text":1603,"start_s":1604,"end_s":1605,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},266,"66168","¿qué consigue hacer lo que él hizo y hace?",1934.3,1938.16,{"idx":1607,"utterance_id":1608,"speaker_name":44,"text":1609,"start_s":1610,"end_s":1611,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},267,"66169","Creo que es un gran refuerzo.",1938.66,1940.58,{"idx":1613,"utterance_id":1614,"speaker_name":44,"text":1615,"start_s":1616,"end_s":1617,"word_count":228,"indexable":14},268,"66170","Lo que considero y que creo importante es que él está utilizando una gran cualidad que tiene, que es esa fuerza, esa coherencia, esa capacidad de hablarle a la gente y de movilizar.",1941.24,1956.14,{"idx":1619,"utterance_id":1620,"speaker_name":44,"text":1621,"start_s":1622,"end_s":1623,"word_count":163,"indexable":14},269,"66171","Pero tiene otra cualidad que creo que es muy grande, que en este momento todavía no está utilizando, que es la de dialogar.",1956.94,1963.76,{"idx":1625,"utterance_id":1626,"speaker_name":44,"text":1627,"start_s":1628,"end_s":1629,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},270,"66172","Aglutinar.",1964.3,1965.18,{"idx":1631,"utterance_id":1632,"speaker_name":44,"text":1633,"start_s":1634,"end_s":1635,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},271,"66173","Aglutinar, dialogar incluso con los diferentes.",1965.22,1968.4,{"idx":1637,"utterance_id":1638,"speaker_name":44,"text":1639,"start_s":1640,"end_s":1641,"word_count":151,"indexable":14},272,"66174","Brasil está viviendo un momento de mucha desagregación y creo que él puede desempeñar el papel de establecer un vínculo de unión.",1969.74,1983.8,{"idx":1643,"utterance_id":1644,"speaker_name":44,"text":1645,"start_s":1646,"end_s":1647,"word_count":169,"indexable":14},273,"66175","entre sectores que tienen visiones políticas y económicas muy diferentes, pero que comparten cierto consenso en torno a la institucionalidad, la democracia, la defensa de la libertad.",1984.48,1996.74,{"idx":1649,"utterance_id":1650,"speaker_name":44,"text":1651,"start_s":1652,"end_s":1653,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},274,"66176","la defensa de los derechos humanos.",1997.34,1998.76,{"idx":1655,"utterance_id":1656,"speaker_name":44,"text":1657,"start_s":1658,"end_s":1659,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},275,"66177","Entonces, él puede ser un factor...",1998.82,2002,{"idx":1661,"utterance_id":1662,"speaker_name":44,"text":1663,"start_s":1664,"end_s":1665,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},276,"66178","Una especie de remendador.",2002.38,2003.78,{"idx":1667,"utterance_id":1668,"speaker_name":44,"text":1669,"start_s":1670,"end_s":1671,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},277,"66179","Creo que puede.",2003.98,2004.88,{"idx":1673,"utterance_id":1674,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1675,"start_s":1676,"end_s":1677,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},278,"66180","Alguien que toma un tejido deshilachado y...",2004.92,2007.12,{"idx":1679,"utterance_id":1680,"speaker_name":44,"text":1681,"start_s":1682,"end_s":1683,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},279,"66181","Desafortunadamente, la derecha no quiere de ninguna manera que él cumpla ese papel.",2007.66,2011.84,{"idx":1685,"utterance_id":1686,"speaker_name":44,"text":1687,"start_s":1688,"end_s":1689,"word_count":81,"indexable":14},280,"66182","Pero creo que habrá un momento en que eso sucederá.",2012.42,2016.64,{"idx":1691,"utterance_id":1692,"speaker_name":44,"text":1693,"start_s":1694,"end_s":1695,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},281,"66183","Humberto, muchas gracias por la conversación.",2017.34,2019.84,{"idx":1697,"utterance_id":1698,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1699,"start_s":1700,"end_s":1701,"word_count":81,"indexable":14},282,"66184","He conversado con el senador Humberto Costa, líder del PT en el Senado Federal.",2020.78,2025.02,{"idx":1703,"utterance_id":1704,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1705,"start_s":1706,"end_s":1707,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},283,"66185","La semana que viene... 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