[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"footer-top-topics-es":3,"transcript-9f4e64fc-f35c-48a8-9c81-e2abd5f093dd-es":65,"transcript-poster-9f4e64fc-f35c-48a8-9c81-e2abd5f093dd":1960,"footer-top-speakers-es":1961},{"limit":4,"offset":5,"topics":6,"total":64},10,0,[7,13,19,25,31,36,41,47,53,58],{"label":8,"n_speakers":9,"n_utterances":10,"n_videos":11,"slug":12},"Seguridad Nacional",26,2695,190,"seguranca-nacional",{"label":14,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":16,"n_videos":17,"slug":18},"Educación",32,1685,229,"educacao",{"label":20,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":22,"n_videos":23,"slug":24},"Seguridad pública y orden",23,1580,244,"seguranca-publica-e-ordem",{"label":26,"n_speakers":27,"n_utterances":28,"n_videos":29,"slug":30},"Combate a la Impunidad",33,1469,292,"combate-a-impunidade",{"label":32,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":33,"n_videos":34,"slug":35},"Política monetaria",1448,303,"politica-monetaria",{"label":37,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":38,"n_videos":39,"slug":40},"Poder judicial",846,149,"poder-judiciario",{"label":42,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":44,"n_videos":45,"slug":46},"Servicio Público",28,788,178,"servico-publico",{"label":48,"n_speakers":49,"n_utterances":50,"n_videos":51,"slug":52},"Salud Pública \u002F Seguridad Pública",25,756,139,"saude-publica-seguranca-publica",{"label":54,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":55,"n_videos":56,"slug":57},"Política social",684,197,"politica-social",{"label":59,"n_speakers":60,"n_utterances":61,"n_videos":62,"slug":63},"Reforma fiscal",22,671,134,"reforma-fiscal",625,{"falas":66,"lang":1948,"meta":1949},[67,76,83,90,97,104,110,116,122,128,134,139,145,151,158,164,170,175,182,188,194,199,204,208,213,218,223,228,233,238,244,250,256,261,266,272,278,283,289,295,301,307,313,319,325,331,337,343,349,355,361,367,373,379,385,391,397,403,409,415,421,427,433,439,445,451,457,463,469,475,481,487,493,499,505,511,517,523,529,535,541,547,553,559,565,571,577,583,589,595,601,607,613,619,625,631,637,643,649,655,661,667,672,678,684,690,696,702,708,714,720,726,732,738,744,750,756,762,768,774,780,786,792,798,804,810,816,822,828,834,840,846,852,858,864,869,875,881,887,893,898,904,910,916,922,928,934,940,946,952,957,963,969,975,981,987,993,999,1005,1011,1017,1023,1029,1035,1041,1047,1053,1059,1065,1071,1077,1083,1089,1095,1101,1107,1113,1119,1125,1130,1136,1142,1148,1154,1160,1166,1171,1177,1183,1189,1195,1200,1206,1212,1218,1224,1229,1235,1240,1246,1252,1258,1264,1270,1276,1282,1288,1294,1300,1306,1312,1318,1324,1330,1336,1342,1347,1353,1359,1365,1371,1377,1383,1389,1395,1401,1407,1413,1419,1425,1430,1436,1442,1448,1454,1460,1466,1472,1478,1484,1490,1496,1502,1508,1514,1519,1525,1531,1537,1543,1549,1555,1561,1567,1573,1579,1585,1591,1597,1603,1609,1615,1621,1627,1633,1639,1645,1651,1657,1663,1669,1675,1681,1687,1693,1699,1705,1711,1717,1723,1729,1735,1741,1747,1753,1759,1765,1771,1777,1783,1789,1795,1801,1806,1812,1818,1824,1830,1835,1841,1847,1853,1859,1865,1870,1876,1882,1888,1894,1900,1906,1912,1918,1924,1930,1936,1942],{"idx":5,"utterance_id":68,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":71,"start_s":72,"end_s":73,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},"85403","Fernando Haddad","fernando-haddad","Mi entrevistado de hoy es economista y licenciado en Derecho.",9.02,12.2,11,false,{"idx":77,"utterance_id":78,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":79,"start_s":80,"end_s":81,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},1,"85404","Es profesor de la Fundação Getúlio Vargas en São Paulo desde 1959 y edita la revista de Economía Política desde 1981.",12.42,21.4,20,{"idx":84,"utterance_id":85,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":86,"start_s":87,"end_s":88,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},2,"85405","Ha sido ministro de Hacienda en el gobierno de Sarney y de Administración y de Ciencia y Tecnología en el gobierno de Fernando Henrique Cardoso.",21.72,29.84,21,{"idx":91,"utterance_id":92,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":93,"start_s":94,"end_s":95,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},3,"85406","Buenas noches, profesor Bressa Pereira.",30.46,32.1,5,{"idx":98,"utterance_id":99,"speaker_name":100,"text":101,"start_s":102,"end_s":103,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},4,"85407","Desconhecido","Buenas noches, Fernando.",32.34,32.88,{"idx":96,"utterance_id":105,"speaker_name":100,"text":106,"start_s":107,"end_s":108,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},"85408","Es una satisfacción tenerlo aquí.",32.92,34.96,7,{"idx":111,"utterance_id":112,"speaker_name":100,"text":113,"start_s":114,"end_s":115,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},6,"85409","Igualmente.",35.28,35.58,{"idx":109,"utterance_id":117,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":118,"start_s":119,"end_s":120,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},"85410","¿Cómo lo ves tú... ¿Crees que Lula fue víctima de un sentimiento parecido al que estremeció las relaciones de los industriales con Getúlio?",36.72,49.88,27,{"idx":123,"utterance_id":124,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":125,"start_s":126,"end_s":127,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},8,"85411","¿Qué pasa por la cabeza del empresario brasileño?",50.46,54.14,{"idx":129,"utterance_id":130,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":131,"start_s":132,"end_s":133,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},9,"85412","¿que se va separando de una agenda que parecía una reanudación interesante en un proceso de emancipación del Estado brasileño?",54.82,65.68,{"idx":4,"utterance_id":135,"speaker_name":100,"text":136,"start_s":137,"end_s":138,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},"85413","Entonces, esa pregunta es importante.",66.36,67.72,{"idx":74,"utterance_id":140,"speaker_name":100,"text":141,"start_s":142,"end_s":143,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},"85414","Y mira, cuando el PT surgió en 1980, surgió con un discurso muy radical.",68.18,78.08,15,{"idx":146,"utterance_id":147,"speaker_name":100,"text":148,"start_s":149,"end_s":150,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},12,"85415","Era un discurso de revolución socialista, la idea del socialismo, socialismo y tal.",79.24,83.3,{"idx":152,"utterance_id":153,"speaker_name":100,"text":154,"start_s":155,"end_s":156,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},13,"85416","Aunque Lula nunca haya sido un revolucionario, en mi opinión, el discurso era ese.",84.26,89.48,16,{"idx":159,"utterance_id":160,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":161,"start_s":162,"end_s":163,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},14,"85417","Un laborista que se convirtió en un socialdemócrata.",89.84,93.44,{"idx":144,"utterance_id":165,"speaker_name":100,"text":166,"start_s":167,"end_s":168,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},"85418","Lula es eso, pero estoy diciendo que el discurso del PT fue un discurso más a la izquierda.",94.66,98.98,19,{"idx":157,"utterance_id":171,"speaker_name":100,"text":172,"start_s":173,"end_s":174,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},"85419","O sea, eso dejó a la burguesía muy preocupada, eso durante todos los años 80.",99.56,104.9,{"idx":176,"utterance_id":177,"speaker_name":100,"text":178,"start_s":179,"end_s":180,"word_count":181,"indexable":75},17,"85420","Ahora, cuando llega la final, en la víspera de ser elegido... eso ya es en 2002, o sea, hace la carta a los brasileños.",105.92,117.28,24,{"idx":183,"utterance_id":184,"speaker_name":100,"text":185,"start_s":186,"end_s":187,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},18,"85421","Y entonces muestra, mira, yo no estoy aquí para hacer ninguna revolución, yo soy aquí un socialdemócrata, quiero administrar el capitalismo mejor que los capitalistas.",117.76,125.96,{"idx":169,"utterance_id":189,"speaker_name":100,"text":190,"start_s":191,"end_s":192,"word_count":193,"indexable":75},"85422","Tengo un compromiso con el pueblo, no voy a renunciar a ese compromiso, pero creo que es perfectamente posible atender a los trabajadores y al pueblo y mantener naturalmente el sistema capitalista funcionando tal como está.",127.12,140.06,36,{"idx":82,"utterance_id":195,"speaker_name":100,"text":196,"start_s":197,"end_s":198,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},"85423","Ese fue el mensaje y eso se comprobó rápidamente después de electo.",141.06,147.78,{"idx":89,"utterance_id":200,"speaker_name":100,"text":201,"start_s":202,"end_s":203,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},"85424","Cumplió la palabra.",149.32,150.22,{"idx":60,"utterance_id":205,"speaker_name":100,"text":201,"start_s":206,"end_s":207,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},"85425",150.26,151.26,{"idx":21,"utterance_id":209,"speaker_name":100,"text":210,"start_s":211,"end_s":212,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},"85426","De modo que sus ocho años de gobierno fueron un enorme éxito.",152.28,156.84,{"idx":181,"utterance_id":214,"speaker_name":100,"text":215,"start_s":216,"end_s":217,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},"85427","Un enorme éxito económico, porque Brasil creció mucho, grandemente beneficiado por ese fuerte aumento en el precio de las commodities.",157.9,165.36,{"idx":49,"utterance_id":219,"speaker_name":100,"text":220,"start_s":221,"end_s":222,"word_count":183,"indexable":75},"85428","También fue un enorme éxito... En el plano internacional, la política internacional brasileña proyectó a Brasil de manera extraordinaria.",168.42,175.32,{"idx":9,"utterance_id":224,"speaker_name":100,"text":225,"start_s":226,"end_s":227,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},"85429","Brasil se convirtió realmente en un socio de los grandes países, un intermediario en la solución de los problemas aquí de América Latina.",175.36,183.5,{"idx":121,"utterance_id":229,"speaker_name":100,"text":230,"start_s":231,"end_s":232,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},"85430","Una belleza.",184.44,185,{"idx":43,"utterance_id":234,"speaker_name":100,"text":235,"start_s":236,"end_s":237,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},"85431","Y terminó con una popularidad del 87%.",185.64,190.36,{"idx":239,"utterance_id":240,"speaker_name":100,"text":241,"start_s":242,"end_s":243,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},29,"85432","O sea, la burguesía estaba con Lula también en ese momento.",191.04,194.08,{"idx":245,"utterance_id":246,"speaker_name":100,"text":247,"start_s":248,"end_s":249,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},30,"85433","Pero ya sabes cómo es. Lula nunca dejó de decir: estoy comprometido con los pobres.",195.74,201.42,{"idx":251,"utterance_id":252,"speaker_name":100,"text":253,"start_s":254,"end_s":255,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},31,"85434","Hizo muchas concesiones, cualquier político tiene que hacer compromisos.",202.98,206.66,{"idx":15,"utterance_id":257,"speaker_name":100,"text":258,"start_s":259,"end_s":260,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},"85435","Hizo compromisos, compromisos.",206.72,208.94,{"idx":27,"utterance_id":262,"speaker_name":100,"text":263,"start_s":264,"end_s":265,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},"85436","Pero sin renunciar a su compromiso básico con los pobres y los trabajadores.",209.28,213.58,{"idx":267,"utterance_id":268,"speaker_name":100,"text":269,"start_s":270,"end_s":271,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},34,"85437","Y entonces llegó el gobierno de Dilma.",215,216.16,{"idx":273,"utterance_id":274,"speaker_name":100,"text":275,"start_s":276,"end_s":277,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},35,"85438","Y en el gobierno de Dilma llegó una crisis económica.",217.04,219.14,{"idx":193,"utterance_id":279,"speaker_name":100,"text":280,"start_s":281,"end_s":282,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},"85439","Y una crisis económica que en parte fue... fue herencia de Lula.",219.36,223.1,{"idx":284,"utterance_id":285,"speaker_name":100,"text":286,"start_s":287,"end_s":288,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},37,"85440","El tipo de cambio había vuelto a apreciarse fuertemente.",223.94,227.14,{"idx":290,"utterance_id":291,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":292,"start_s":293,"end_s":294,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},38,"85441","A pesar de la compra de reservas cambiarias en el orden de 400 mil millones de dólares.",230.06,236.1,{"idx":296,"utterance_id":297,"speaker_name":100,"text":298,"start_s":299,"end_s":300,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},39,"85442","Es que el éxito de Brasil era tan grande que la prensa económica hizo esa famosa portada del Cristo Redentor volando, convirtiéndose en un cohete que despegaba.",236.14,247.86,{"idx":302,"utterance_id":303,"speaker_name":100,"text":304,"start_s":305,"end_s":306,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},40,"85443","O sea, entonces el capital quería entrar aquí de todas las maneras posibles.",248.28,250.74,{"idx":308,"utterance_id":309,"speaker_name":100,"text":310,"start_s":311,"end_s":312,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},41,"85444","Y se compran reservas para contener un poco, pero eso fue todo lo que se hizo.",252.14,255.48,{"idx":314,"utterance_id":315,"speaker_name":100,"text":316,"start_s":317,"end_s":318,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},42,"85445","Hubo también un intento de hacer algún control de capitales, que hizo Guido Mantega, pero no funcionó, no fue suficiente.",256.16,262.12,{"idx":320,"utterance_id":321,"speaker_name":100,"text":322,"start_s":323,"end_s":324,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},43,"85446","El hecho es que la tasa de cambio quedó altamente apreciada.",263.08,266.02,{"idx":326,"utterance_id":327,"speaker_name":100,"text":328,"start_s":329,"end_s":330,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},44,"85447","¿Y qué pasó entonces?",266.86,268.06,{"idx":332,"utterance_id":333,"speaker_name":100,"text":334,"start_s":335,"end_s":336,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},45,"85448","es que las importaciones de manufacturados, a partir de 2011, invadieron Brasil.",268.3,275.56,{"idx":338,"utterance_id":339,"speaker_name":100,"text":340,"start_s":341,"end_s":342,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},46,"85449","Siempre tardan algunos años, tres años de media, para que usted organice la importación de manufacturados.",276.92,282.56,{"idx":344,"utterance_id":345,"speaker_name":100,"text":346,"start_s":347,"end_s":348,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},47,"85450","Es muy diferente de la importación de commodities, que usted resuelve en el momento, es solo hacer una... En la bolsa, ¿no?",282.66,288.64,{"idx":350,"utterance_id":351,"speaker_name":100,"text":352,"start_s":353,"end_s":354,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},48,"85451","En la bolsa, exactamente.",288.68,289.96,{"idx":356,"utterance_id":357,"speaker_name":100,"text":358,"start_s":359,"end_s":360,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},49,"85452","Pero en Mata Prata es muy diferente.",290.02,291.24,{"idx":362,"utterance_id":363,"speaker_name":100,"text":364,"start_s":365,"end_s":366,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},50,"85453","Y cuando entró todo eso, la industria brasileña entró en crisis.",292.2,296.38,{"idx":368,"utterance_id":369,"speaker_name":100,"text":370,"start_s":371,"end_s":372,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},51,"85454","La tasa de ganancia de la industria cayó brutalmente.",297,299.48,{"idx":374,"utterance_id":375,"speaker_name":100,"text":376,"start_s":377,"end_s":378,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},52,"85455","Ahora, eso creó un problema serio para los industriales.",301.08,304.06,{"idx":380,"utterance_id":381,"speaker_name":100,"text":382,"start_s":383,"end_s":384,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},53,"85456","Aún en 2011, es curioso, hubo un gran esfuerzo de una alianza entre industriales y trabajadores, en la que participó la Fiesp.",305.06,315.54,{"idx":386,"utterance_id":387,"speaker_name":100,"text":388,"start_s":389,"end_s":390,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},54,"85457","Y hubo una gran reunión en un lugar de eventos, que era una fábrica en la Moca.",316.32,324.4,{"idx":392,"utterance_id":393,"speaker_name":100,"text":394,"start_s":395,"end_s":396,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},55,"85458","Fui allí, invitado.",325.08,326.72,{"idx":398,"utterance_id":399,"speaker_name":100,"text":400,"start_s":401,"end_s":402,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},56,"85459","Había casi mil trabajadores y los empresarios dando discursos.",327.3,331.42,{"idx":404,"utterance_id":405,"speaker_name":100,"text":406,"start_s":407,"end_s":408,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},57,"85460","Eso fue curioso.",332.4,333.36,{"idx":410,"utterance_id":411,"speaker_name":100,"text":412,"start_s":413,"end_s":414,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},58,"85461","Pero allí fue el canto del cisne.",335.34,339,{"idx":416,"utterance_id":417,"speaker_name":100,"text":418,"start_s":419,"end_s":420,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},59,"85462","Se acabó la historia.",339.9,340.7,{"idx":422,"utterance_id":423,"speaker_name":100,"text":424,"start_s":425,"end_s":426,"word_count":43,"indexable":75},60,"85463","Porque ahí Dilma también empezó a actuar, Dilma se había vuelto muy popular, porque ella destituyó a un montón de ministros corruptos al comienzo de su gobierno.",341.48,352.44,{"idx":428,"utterance_id":429,"speaker_name":100,"text":430,"start_s":431,"end_s":432,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},61,"85464","Entonces, creo que ella se volvió muy arrogante.",354.08,355.46,{"idx":434,"utterance_id":435,"speaker_name":100,"text":436,"start_s":437,"end_s":438,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},62,"85465","Es una mujer... honesta, correcta, llena de espíritu público, pero no es política.",355.54,360.64,{"idx":440,"utterance_id":441,"speaker_name":100,"text":442,"start_s":443,"end_s":444,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},63,"85466","Definitivamente, ella es lo opuesto a un político.",361.16,363.36,{"idx":446,"utterance_id":447,"speaker_name":100,"text":448,"start_s":449,"end_s":450,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},64,"85467","Como resultado, ella comenzó a tomar medidas que molestaron mucho a toda la burguesía, porque a la burguesía no le gusta el intervencionismo ni la arrogancia.",364.72,373.56,{"idx":452,"utterance_id":453,"speaker_name":100,"text":454,"start_s":455,"end_s":456,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},65,"85468","Y no sé qué pasó.",374.82,375.9,{"idx":458,"utterance_id":459,"speaker_name":100,"text":460,"start_s":461,"end_s":462,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},66,"85469","Quiero decir, entonces la cosa... Ahí están las manifestaciones de 2013.",376.36,380.54,{"idx":464,"utterance_id":465,"speaker_name":100,"text":466,"start_s":467,"end_s":468,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},67,"85470","Y nadie consigue entender completamente lo que pasó allí.",381.1,383.44,{"idx":470,"utterance_id":471,"speaker_name":100,"text":472,"start_s":473,"end_s":474,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},68,"85471","En 2013.",383.74,384.38,{"idx":476,"utterance_id":477,"speaker_name":100,"text":478,"start_s":479,"end_s":480,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},69,"85472","Pero usted vivió eso, porque usted era alcalde.",384.44,386.7,{"idx":482,"utterance_id":483,"speaker_name":100,"text":484,"start_s":485,"end_s":486,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},70,"85473","Comenzó, además, con el maldito pase libre.",387.52,391.02,{"idx":488,"utterance_id":489,"speaker_name":100,"text":490,"start_s":491,"end_s":492,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},71,"85474","Exactamente.",391.56,391.98,{"idx":494,"utterance_id":495,"speaker_name":100,"text":496,"start_s":497,"end_s":498,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},72,"85475","Que era un grupo de izquierda que lo hacía.",392.06,393.46,{"idx":500,"utterance_id":501,"speaker_name":100,"text":502,"start_s":503,"end_s":504,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},73,"85476","Pero el hecho es que allí ocurrió algo y... Y ahí empezó el odio.",393.94,401.04,{"idx":506,"utterance_id":507,"speaker_name":100,"text":508,"start_s":509,"end_s":510,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},74,"85477","Una cosa que nunca había visto en mi vida en Brasil fue odio.",401.8,404.92,{"idx":512,"utterance_id":513,"speaker_name":100,"text":514,"start_s":515,"end_s":516,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},75,"85478","¿Ni en los años 50, 60?",405,405.86,{"idx":518,"utterance_id":519,"speaker_name":100,"text":520,"start_s":521,"end_s":522,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},76,"85479","No, en los años 60.",405.92,407.92,{"idx":524,"utterance_id":525,"speaker_name":100,"text":526,"start_s":527,"end_s":528,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},77,"85480","¿Pre-golpe?",408.58,409.2,{"idx":530,"utterance_id":531,"speaker_name":100,"text":532,"start_s":533,"end_s":534,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},78,"85481","En el pre-golpe había miedo.",409.36,410.56,{"idx":536,"utterance_id":537,"speaker_name":100,"text":538,"start_s":539,"end_s":540,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},79,"85482","El miedo es algo muy diferente del golpe.",411.22,413.08,{"idx":542,"utterance_id":543,"speaker_name":100,"text":544,"start_s":545,"end_s":546,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},80,"85483","¿No era odio?",413.16,413.92,{"idx":548,"utterance_id":549,"speaker_name":100,"text":550,"start_s":551,"end_s":552,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},81,"85484","No, era miedo.",414.06,415.46,{"idx":554,"utterance_id":555,"speaker_name":100,"text":556,"start_s":557,"end_s":558,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},82,"85485","Estaban preocupados y pensando que podía llegar al comunismo.",416.14,419.14,{"idx":560,"utterance_id":561,"speaker_name":100,"text":562,"start_s":563,"end_s":564,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},83,"85486","¿Pero odiar a quién?",419.56,420.84,{"idx":566,"utterance_id":567,"speaker_name":100,"text":568,"start_s":569,"end_s":570,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},84,"85487","¿Odiar a João Goulart?",421.34,422.36,{"idx":572,"utterance_id":573,"speaker_name":100,"text":574,"start_s":575,"end_s":576,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},85,"85488","No se podía odiar a João Goulart.",422.46,423.66,{"idx":578,"utterance_id":579,"speaker_name":100,"text":580,"start_s":581,"end_s":582,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},86,"85489","Es un hombre que estaba allí haciendo lo que podía.",423.7,426.12,{"idx":584,"utterance_id":585,"speaker_name":100,"text":586,"start_s":587,"end_s":588,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},87,"85490","Usted también tenía un compromiso con el pueblo, pero mucho... incluso menor que el de Lula.",426.28,431.44,{"idx":590,"utterance_id":591,"speaker_name":100,"text":592,"start_s":593,"end_s":594,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},88,"85491","Entonces, aquí no.",432.44,434.08,{"idx":596,"utterance_id":597,"speaker_name":100,"text":598,"start_s":599,"end_s":600,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},89,"85492","El odio es algo que aparece raramente en la política, porque el odio es antipolítica.",434.28,439.62,{"idx":602,"utterance_id":603,"speaker_name":100,"text":604,"start_s":605,"end_s":606,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},90,"85493","El odio es lo que le ocurrió a la Alemania de Hitler.",440.5,443.26,{"idx":608,"utterance_id":609,"speaker_name":100,"text":610,"start_s":611,"end_s":612,"word_count":15,"indexable":75},91,"85494","Quiero decir, el pueblo alemán quedó con odio, con odio debido a la derrota que tuvo en la Primera Guerra Mundial, debido al Tratado de Versalles, que fue abusivo respecto a ese pueblo.",444.16,457.74,{"idx":614,"utterance_id":615,"speaker_name":100,"text":616,"start_s":617,"end_s":618,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},92,"85495","En consecuencia también de la hiperinflación que estalló en Alemania en 1922.",458.64,464.44,{"idx":620,"utterance_id":621,"speaker_name":100,"text":622,"start_s":623,"end_s":624,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},93,"85496","La República de Weimar.",468.18,469.42,{"idx":626,"utterance_id":627,"speaker_name":100,"text":628,"start_s":629,"end_s":630,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},94,"85497","Eso es la República de Weimar.",469.76,473.54,{"idx":632,"utterance_id":633,"speaker_name":100,"text":634,"start_s":635,"end_s":636,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},95,"85498","Allí hubo odio, aquí también hubo odio.",473.8,476.16,{"idx":638,"utterance_id":639,"speaker_name":100,"text":640,"start_s":641,"end_s":642,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},96,"85499","El odio es antipolítico, suspende el razonamiento.",477.98,481.94,{"idx":644,"utterance_id":645,"speaker_name":100,"text":646,"start_s":647,"end_s":648,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},97,"85500","De repente, con Lula y con el PT.",484.54,487.94,{"idx":650,"utterance_id":651,"speaker_name":100,"text":652,"start_s":653,"end_s":654,"word_count":43,"indexable":75},98,"85501","Inclusive, porque ahora empezaron a decir, nosotros no queremos... Cuando vieron que Dilma tenía posibilidades de ser reelegida y terminó siendo reelegida, la cosa fue empeorando.",492.18,500.46,{"idx":656,"utterance_id":657,"speaker_name":100,"text":658,"start_s":659,"end_s":660,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},99,"85502","Y al día siguiente de la reelección...",501.36,502.7,{"idx":662,"utterance_id":663,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":664,"start_s":665,"end_s":666,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},100,"85503","Su reelección pareció inaceptable para la oposición.",503.34,506.5,{"idx":668,"utterance_id":669,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":490,"start_s":670,"end_s":671,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},101,"85504",506.54,507.2,{"idx":673,"utterance_id":674,"speaker_name":100,"text":675,"start_s":676,"end_s":677,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},102,"85505","Eso estaba... Y lo curioso de esto es que, al mismo tiempo, la crisis del gobierno de Dilma hizo renacer el neoliberalismo en Brasil.",510.96,522.74,{"idx":679,"utterance_id":680,"speaker_name":100,"text":681,"start_s":682,"end_s":683,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},103,"85506","El neoliberalismo en Brasil ya había estado con Fernando Henrique, pero era un neoliberalismo social; en el aspecto social Fernando Henrique lo manejó bien.",523.54,531.12,{"idx":685,"utterance_id":686,"speaker_name":100,"text":687,"start_s":688,"end_s":689,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},104,"85507","Lo que sí descuidó fue la parte económica.",532,534.32,{"idx":691,"utterance_id":692,"speaker_name":100,"text":693,"start_s":694,"end_s":695,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},105,"85508","que él realmente no estaba muy interesado en una política nacional y de desarrollo.",535.38,540.58,{"idx":697,"utterance_id":698,"speaker_name":100,"text":699,"start_s":700,"end_s":701,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},106,"85509","No era eso.",540.86,541.36,{"idx":703,"utterance_id":704,"speaker_name":100,"text":705,"start_s":706,"end_s":707,"word_count":338,"indexable":75},107,"85510","Pero, ahora, cuando comienza en enero de 2015, de repente descubrimos, toda la sociedad brasileña descubre, Dilma, inclusive, descubrió en ese momento, creo, que Brasil estaba en una gran recesión, que no se sabía durante la elección, y que estaba en una gran crisis fiscal.",541.82,561.58,{"idx":709,"utterance_id":710,"speaker_name":100,"text":711,"start_s":712,"end_s":713,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},108,"85511","Una parte de la cual había sido responsabilidad del gasto excesivo que Dilma hizo y de las exenciones fiscales que ella otorgó.",563.78,568.92,{"idx":715,"utterance_id":716,"speaker_name":100,"text":717,"start_s":718,"end_s":719,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},109,"85512","Quiero decir, y entonces vi ocurrir una hegemonía ideológica neoliberal muy fuerte en las élites brasileñas.",569.68,578.76,{"idx":721,"utterance_id":722,"speaker_name":100,"text":723,"start_s":724,"end_s":725,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},110,"85513","Entonces era odio más neoliberalismo, que es algo muy autoritario.",578.8,582.12,{"idx":727,"utterance_id":728,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":729,"start_s":730,"end_s":731,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},111,"85514","Bueno, solo podía terminar en Bolsonaro, ¿no?",582.56,584.18,{"idx":733,"utterance_id":734,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":735,"start_s":736,"end_s":737,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},112,"85515","Odio más neoliberalismo es exactamente lo que parece ser el gobierno de Bolsonaro.",584.84,588.4,{"idx":739,"utterance_id":740,"speaker_name":100,"text":741,"start_s":742,"end_s":743,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},113,"85516","Quiero decir, en realidad... Todo esto creó, a mi parecer, tres cosas muy malas.",588.64,593.22,{"idx":745,"utterance_id":746,"speaker_name":100,"text":747,"start_s":748,"end_s":749,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},114,"85517","La primera fue el impeachment.",593.58,594.68,{"idx":751,"utterance_id":752,"speaker_name":100,"text":753,"start_s":754,"end_s":755,"word_count":344,"indexable":75},115,"85518","El impeachment fue un golpe de Temer, vicepresidente, que se dio cuenta de que si hacía un programa como el que hizo, un puente hacia el futuro absolutamente neoliberal, conseguiría el apoyo de los neoliberales, que estaban llenos de odio, y al hacer el impeachment se convertiría en presidente.",595.5,615.08,{"idx":757,"utterance_id":758,"speaker_name":100,"text":759,"start_s":760,"end_s":761,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},116,"85519","Funcionó.",615.36,615.9,{"idx":763,"utterance_id":764,"speaker_name":100,"text":765,"start_s":766,"end_s":767,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},117,"85520","Moro hizo exactamente lo mismo.",617.2,618.82,{"idx":769,"utterance_id":770,"speaker_name":100,"text":771,"start_s":772,"end_s":773,"word_count":239,"indexable":75},118,"85521","Él se dio cuenta, él y Delanhol vieron que si atacaban a Lula, la Operación Lava Jato sería un éxito enorme y él tendría un futuro brillante en la vida.",618.86,627.64,{"idx":775,"utterance_id":776,"speaker_name":100,"text":777,"start_s":778,"end_s":779,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},119,"85522","Entonces atacaron a Lula con firmeza y dureza.",629,631.32,{"idx":781,"utterance_id":782,"speaker_name":100,"text":783,"start_s":784,"end_s":785,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},120,"85523","Ahora está probado que era una estrategia política.",631.38,635.38,{"idx":787,"utterance_id":788,"speaker_name":100,"text":789,"start_s":790,"end_s":791,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},121,"85524","Bolsonaro hizo exactamente lo mismo.",638.12,640.92,{"idx":793,"utterance_id":794,"speaker_name":100,"text":795,"start_s":796,"end_s":797,"word_count":251,"indexable":75},122,"85525","Él, que no tenía nada que ver con el neoliberalismo, llamó a Guedes, que ese sí es un neoliberal alucinado, aprovechando ese neoliberalismo y esa situación de odio de la burguesía brasileña.",641.38,656.96,{"idx":799,"utterance_id":800,"speaker_name":100,"text":801,"start_s":802,"end_s":803,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},123,"85526","Pero creo que eso está terminando.",657.4,659.8,{"idx":805,"utterance_id":806,"speaker_name":100,"text":807,"start_s":808,"end_s":809,"word_count":326,"indexable":75},124,"85527","Estoy convencido de que el desastre de esos primeros diez meses del gobierno de Bolsonaro, la desmoralización profunda, que está extendida en toda la sociedad brasileña, y no es solo en la izquierda, en todas partes, es algo así, es lo innombrable que está en el gobierno.",660.74,680.18,{"idx":811,"utterance_id":812,"speaker_name":100,"text":813,"start_s":814,"end_s":815,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},125,"85528","Vi a un joven diciendo que... Lo que había en el gobierno era un grupo de payasos que no hacían ninguna gracia, que no tenían ninguna gracia.",682.04,691.44,{"idx":817,"utterance_id":818,"speaker_name":100,"text":819,"start_s":820,"end_s":821,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},126,"85529","La gente perdiendo todo respeto por él, porque él no se respeta a sí mismo.",693.6,696.78,{"idx":823,"utterance_id":824,"speaker_name":100,"text":825,"start_s":826,"end_s":827,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},127,"85530","Entonces, creo que necesitamos acabar con ese odio, acabar con esa rencilla, porque tenemos cosas que hacer.",698.92,705.98,{"idx":829,"utterance_id":830,"speaker_name":100,"text":831,"start_s":832,"end_s":833,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},128,"85531","Escribí un artículo ahora en la Folha, que hasta traduje al inglés después, que se llama Después de la Pesadilla.",707.12,713.5,{"idx":835,"utterance_id":836,"speaker_name":100,"text":837,"start_s":838,"end_s":839,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},129,"85532","Y en ese artículo digo, pensé — no escribí esto, pero pensé: '¡Ay, cuánto echo de menos a Fernando Henrique!'",715,722.54,{"idx":841,"utterance_id":842,"speaker_name":100,"text":843,"start_s":844,"end_s":845,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},130,"85533","No lo escribió, pero lo pensó.",724.86,726.42,{"idx":847,"utterance_id":848,"speaker_name":100,"text":849,"start_s":850,"end_s":851,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},131,"85534","Y lo que escribí venía más o menos a decir eso.",726.84,728.72,{"idx":853,"utterance_id":854,"speaker_name":100,"text":855,"start_s":856,"end_s":857,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},132,"85535","Dije, mira, porque nosotros tuvimos, entre 1995 y 2000... 12, 14, teníamos una alternancia entre dos partidos.",728.76,740.84,{"idx":859,"utterance_id":860,"speaker_name":100,"text":861,"start_s":862,"end_s":863,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},133,"85536","Un partido de centroizquierda, que era el PT, y un partido de centroderecha, que era el PSDB.",740.9,745.58,{"idx":62,"utterance_id":865,"speaker_name":100,"text":866,"start_s":867,"end_s":868,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},"85537","Los dos tenían posiciones diferentes, desacuerdos.",746.4,749.46,{"idx":870,"utterance_id":871,"speaker_name":100,"text":872,"start_s":873,"end_s":874,"word_count":181,"indexable":75},135,"85538","Yo que comencé, no me pasé al otro, porque pensaba que mi partido era socialdemócrata y no lo era; era de derecha.",749.84,757.08,{"idx":876,"utterance_id":877,"speaker_name":100,"text":878,"start_s":879,"end_s":880,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},136,"85539","Pero, quiero decir, vivíamos en un entendimiento bastante razonable.",757.5,761.72,{"idx":882,"utterance_id":883,"speaker_name":100,"text":884,"start_s":885,"end_s":886,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},137,"85540","Creíamos que el otro estaba equivocado, el otro creía que estábamos equivocados, pero había diálogo, había debate.",762.92,767.16,{"idx":888,"utterance_id":889,"speaker_name":100,"text":890,"start_s":891,"end_s":892,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},138,"85541","Y respeto.",767.54,768.12,{"idx":51,"utterance_id":894,"speaker_name":100,"text":895,"start_s":896,"end_s":897,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},"85542","Y respeto, que es fundamental en la política, es esencial para la democracia.",768.2,771.56,{"idx":899,"utterance_id":900,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":901,"start_s":902,"end_s":903,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},140,"85543","A veces el periodismo valora mucho las disputas, ¿no?",771.6,774.34,{"idx":905,"utterance_id":906,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":907,"start_s":908,"end_s":909,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},141,"85544","Pero, en realidad, existe un clima civilizado.",774.94,777.9,{"idx":911,"utterance_id":912,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":913,"start_s":914,"end_s":915,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},142,"85545","Claro, exactamente.",778.04,779.68,{"idx":917,"utterance_id":918,"speaker_name":100,"text":919,"start_s":920,"end_s":921,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},143,"85546","La democracia y la política son un combate entre adversarios.",780.5,785.26,{"idx":923,"utterance_id":924,"speaker_name":100,"text":925,"start_s":926,"end_s":927,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},144,"85547","Cuando tienes odio, las personas se convierten en enemigas.",787.9,790.1,{"idx":929,"utterance_id":930,"speaker_name":100,"text":931,"start_s":932,"end_s":933,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},145,"85548","Es guerra.",790.16,790.56,{"idx":935,"utterance_id":936,"speaker_name":100,"text":937,"start_s":938,"end_s":939,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},146,"85549","Eso no conduce a la democracia, no conduce a un buen gobierno, no conduce a nada.",791.74,794.56,{"idx":941,"utterance_id":942,"speaker_name":100,"text":943,"start_s":944,"end_s":945,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},147,"85550","Pero creo que ese panorama de odio está desapareciendo.",796.14,798.78,{"idx":947,"utterance_id":948,"speaker_name":100,"text":949,"start_s":950,"end_s":951,"word_count":302,"indexable":75},148,"85551","Y creo que es necesario que tanto la centroizquierda del PT... como la centroderecha del PSTB, o lo que sea, ahora todo cambió un poco, empiecen de nuevo a entenderse y a conversar, y a abandonar esa cosa alucinada.",799.78,817.8,{"idx":39,"utterance_id":953,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":954,"start_s":955,"end_s":956,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},"85552","Quiero ahora, después de esto... hicimos una buena retrospectiva, pero quería pensar contigo.",818.36,826.12,{"idx":958,"utterance_id":959,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":960,"start_s":961,"end_s":962,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},150,"85553","Te leo desde muy joven.",827.58,829.86,{"idx":964,"utterance_id":965,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":966,"start_s":967,"end_s":968,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},151,"85554","Escribí un libro sobre el colapso del socialismo.",830.86,833.94,{"idx":970,"utterance_id":971,"speaker_name":100,"text":972,"start_s":973,"end_s":974,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},152,"85555","Leí tu libro.",834.7,835.44,{"idx":976,"utterance_id":977,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":978,"start_s":979,"end_s":980,"word_count":267,"indexable":75},153,"85556","En parte, escribiste un libro poco antes sobre la tecnoburocracia, que ya era un texto muy alineado con el pensamiento, con lo que se decía en la época sobre lo que habría sido aquella experiencia.",835.84,855.24,{"idx":982,"utterance_id":983,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":984,"start_s":985,"end_s":986,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},154,"85557","Luego escribiste, yo ya, adepto de la fe, me encontré con tus textos sobre... Inflación Inercial.",855.34,864.5,{"idx":988,"utterance_id":989,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":990,"start_s":991,"end_s":992,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},155,"85558","Más recientemente, recuperé textos y libros tuyos.",866.7,871.82,{"idx":994,"utterance_id":995,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":996,"start_s":997,"end_s":998,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},156,"85559","Por cierto, estoy leyendo el último que me diste generosamente.",872.02,875.9,{"idx":1000,"utterance_id":1001,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1002,"start_s":1003,"end_s":1004,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},157,"85560","Estoy terminando de leer sobre desarrollismo.",876.36,878.3,{"idx":1006,"utterance_id":1007,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1008,"start_s":1009,"end_s":1010,"word_count":60,"indexable":75},158,"85561","Y quería centrarme en ese tu último movimiento de reflexión crítica sobre la historia de Brasil, pero señalando el futuro.",880.18,888.94,{"idx":1012,"utterance_id":1013,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1014,"start_s":1015,"end_s":1016,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},159,"85562","Haces una provocación nueva.",889.6,893.06,{"idx":1018,"utterance_id":1019,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1020,"start_s":1021,"end_s":1022,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},160,"85563","Sigues siendo un joven pensador, muy estimulante, sobre los supuestos macroeconómicos del desarrollo.",894.48,903.06,{"idx":1024,"utterance_id":1025,"speaker_name":100,"text":1026,"start_s":1027,"end_s":1028,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},161,"85564","Sí.",903.28,903.66,{"idx":1030,"utterance_id":1031,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1032,"start_s":1033,"end_s":1034,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},162,"85565","Que, en mi opinión, hasta donde sé, no había visto eso en la literatura.",904.48,909.84,{"idx":1036,"utterance_id":1037,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1038,"start_s":1039,"end_s":1040,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},163,"85566","Queriendo decir lo siguiente: mira, es obvio que el desarrollismo es microeconomía.",910.94,915.24,{"idx":1042,"utterance_id":1043,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1044,"start_s":1045,"end_s":1046,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},164,"85567","Petrobras, por mucho que sea, es un experimento microeconómico.",916.14,920.64,{"idx":1048,"utterance_id":1049,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1050,"start_s":1051,"end_s":1052,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},165,"85568","Comparado con... la política macroeconómica y así sucesivamente.",921.24,925.22,{"idx":1054,"utterance_id":1055,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1056,"start_s":1057,"end_s":1058,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},166,"85569","Pero existen supuestos macroeconómicos, lo que, en mi opinión, es una novedad en la literatura.",925.28,931.02,{"idx":1060,"utterance_id":1061,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1062,"start_s":1063,"end_s":1064,"word_count":251,"indexable":75},167,"85570","Y dices que existen algunos equilibrios que deben mantenerse para que un proyecto de desarrollo pueda ser fructífero en el país, pueda producir el máximo bienestar y crecimiento económico.",931.3,944.18,{"idx":1066,"utterance_id":1067,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1068,"start_s":1069,"end_s":1070,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},168,"85571","Y, corrígeme, pero hablas de cinco... Los llamas precios.",945.16,950.44,{"idx":1072,"utterance_id":1073,"speaker_name":100,"text":1074,"start_s":1075,"end_s":1076,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},169,"85572","Son precios.",950.48,950.96,{"idx":1078,"utterance_id":1079,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1080,"start_s":1081,"end_s":1082,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},170,"85573","Son precios, de alguna manera.",951.7,952.9,{"idx":1084,"utterance_id":1085,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1086,"start_s":1087,"end_s":1088,"word_count":181,"indexable":75},171,"85574","Pero hablas de la tasa de interés, hablas de los salarios, hablas de las ganancias, hablas del tipo de cambio y hablas de la inflación.",954.74,961.9,{"idx":1090,"utterance_id":1091,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1092,"start_s":1093,"end_s":1094,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},172,"85575","Dices que el macroeconomista que está pensando en el país, que está pensando en el desarrollo, tiene que ocuparse de estas cuestiones.",961.94,972.44,{"idx":1096,"utterance_id":1097,"speaker_name":100,"text":1098,"start_s":1099,"end_s":1100,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},173,"85576","Eso.",972.58,972.78,{"idx":1102,"utterance_id":1103,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1104,"start_s":1105,"end_s":1106,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},174,"85577","Y siempre lo dejas claro.",973.5,974.7,{"idx":1108,"utterance_id":1109,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1110,"start_s":1111,"end_s":1112,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},175,"85578","Eso son supuestos, eso no es el desarrollo.",975.02,977.52,{"idx":1114,"utterance_id":1115,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1116,"start_s":1117,"end_s":1118,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},176,"85579","Porque el desarrollo es después saber qué hacer a partir de eso.",977.56,980.74,{"idx":1120,"utterance_id":1121,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1122,"start_s":1123,"end_s":1124,"word_count":15,"indexable":75},177,"85580","Pero si no tengo equilibrio fiscal, si no tengo una serie de precondiciones, tendré desequilibrios que jugarán en contra del proyecto, al menos a medio y largo plazo.",981.3,992.04,{"idx":45,"utterance_id":1126,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1127,"start_s":1128,"end_s":1129,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},"85581","Quisiera que exploraras un poco de dónde surgió esa intuición, con quién estás dialogando.",993.68,1001.76,{"idx":1131,"utterance_id":1132,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1133,"start_s":1134,"end_s":1135,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},179,"85582","¿Estás dialogando con los viejos desarrollistas, con los nuevos neoliberales?",1002.2,1007.24,{"idx":1137,"utterance_id":1138,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1139,"start_s":1140,"end_s":1141,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},180,"85583","¿Cómo te sitúas en el debate económico hoy en Brasil?",1007.66,1010.88,{"idx":1143,"utterance_id":1144,"speaker_name":100,"text":1145,"start_s":1146,"end_s":1147,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},181,"85584","Entonces, tengo un doctorado en economía en la USP, pero soy fundamentalmente autodidacta.",1011.1,1017.56,{"idx":1149,"utterance_id":1150,"speaker_name":100,"text":1151,"start_s":1152,"end_s":1153,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},182,"85585","Nunca tuve un curso regular, normal, de economía.",1017.6,1022.14,{"idx":1155,"utterance_id":1156,"speaker_name":100,"text":1157,"start_s":1158,"end_s":1159,"word_count":284,"indexable":75},183,"85586","Es decir, en mi formación, mi formación, digamos, entre los 20 y los 50 años, fue fundamentalmente en el desarrollismo, teniendo a Celso Furtado e Inácio Rangel aquí en Brasil como referencia, Arthur Lewis, Albert Hirschman, más ampliamente.",1022.74,1045.72,{"idx":1161,"utterance_id":1162,"speaker_name":100,"text":1163,"start_s":1164,"end_s":1165,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},184,"85587","¿Prebisch también?",1045.76,1046.46,{"idx":232,"utterance_id":1167,"speaker_name":100,"text":1168,"start_s":1169,"end_s":1170,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},"85588","Prebisch también, sin duda, fundamental.",1046.68,1048.92,{"idx":1172,"utterance_id":1173,"speaker_name":100,"text":1174,"start_s":1175,"end_s":1176,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},186,"85589","Es decir, ahora, cuando llega 1980, estalla la crisis de la deuda externa y de la alta inflación en Brasil.",1049.44,1057.76,{"idx":1178,"utterance_id":1179,"speaker_name":100,"text":1180,"start_s":1181,"end_s":1182,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},187,"85590","Ahí vi, mira, no sirve de nada estudiar desarrollismo sin Brasil.",1058.54,1062.56,{"idx":1184,"utterance_id":1185,"speaker_name":100,"text":1186,"start_s":1187,"end_s":1188,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},188,"85591","Primero resolver el problema de la alta inflación y de la crisis de la deuda externa.",1062.64,1066.92,{"idx":1190,"utterance_id":1191,"speaker_name":100,"text":1192,"start_s":1193,"end_s":1194,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},189,"85592","Entonces dejé de enseñar; daba clase de desarrollo económico y economía brasileña en la GV.",1067.3,1071.12,{"idx":11,"utterance_id":1196,"speaker_name":100,"text":1197,"start_s":1198,"end_s":1199,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},"85593","Lo dejé y comencé.",1071.64,1072.54,{"idx":1201,"utterance_id":1202,"speaker_name":100,"text":1203,"start_s":1204,"end_s":1205,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},191,"85594","Ah, fue por eso.",1072.6,1073.76,{"idx":1207,"utterance_id":1208,"speaker_name":100,"text":1209,"start_s":1210,"end_s":1211,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},192,"85595","Fue por ello.",1073.8,1074.28,{"idx":1213,"utterance_id":1214,"speaker_name":100,"text":1215,"start_s":1216,"end_s":1217,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},193,"85596","Entonces eso ya está atrás.",1074.34,1075.82,{"idx":1219,"utterance_id":1220,"speaker_name":100,"text":1221,"start_s":1222,"end_s":1223,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},194,"85597","Está atrás.",1075.88,1076.34,{"idx":1225,"utterance_id":1226,"speaker_name":100,"text":1221,"start_s":1227,"end_s":1228,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},195,"85598",1076.44,1077.68,{"idx":1230,"utterance_id":1231,"speaker_name":100,"text":1232,"start_s":1233,"end_s":1234,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},196,"85599","Y entonces me puse a estudiar.",1077.98,1079.5,{"idx":56,"utterance_id":1236,"speaker_name":100,"text":1237,"start_s":1238,"end_s":1239,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},"85600","Siempre había estudiado un poco, ya había estudiado macroeconomía, ya había dado clases de macroeconomía también, pero solo un poco.",1079.54,1084.16,{"idx":1241,"utterance_id":1242,"speaker_name":100,"text":1243,"start_s":1244,"end_s":1245,"word_count":60,"indexable":75},198,"85601","A partir de 1980 ya no doy clases de... a no ser que sea de inflación y crisis de la deuda externa.",1084.72,1093.7,{"idx":1247,"utterance_id":1248,"speaker_name":100,"text":1249,"start_s":1250,"end_s":1251,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},199,"85602","Así fue como fui ministro.",1094.5,1095.72,{"idx":1253,"utterance_id":1254,"speaker_name":100,"text":1255,"start_s":1256,"end_s":1257,"word_count":308,"indexable":75},200,"85603","Cuando salí del ministerio, fue en el 87, que fui ministro de Hacienda, entré en contacto con los poskeynesianos, allí en Estados Unidos, y entonces pasé a tener una... que es el grupo más importante de economistas heterodoxos.",1096.24,1110.38,{"idx":1259,"utterance_id":1260,"speaker_name":100,"text":1261,"start_s":1262,"end_s":1263,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},201,"85604","Desarrollistas.",1111.3,1112.4,{"idx":1265,"utterance_id":1266,"speaker_name":100,"text":1267,"start_s":1268,"end_s":1269,"word_count":193,"indexable":75},202,"85605","Entonces pasé a tener una formación doble, una formación desarrollista, que tiene un poco de Marx también, eso es muy importante en esa formación, y tiene, por tanto, una visión de la historia y una visión keynesiana macroeconómica.",1112.88,1127.28,{"idx":1271,"utterance_id":1272,"speaker_name":100,"text":1273,"start_s":1274,"end_s":1275,"word_count":181,"indexable":75},203,"85606","Es decir, cuando salí por segunda vez del gobierno, allí en el 99, percibí que Brasil llevaba 20 años semiestancado.",1128,1137.74,{"idx":1277,"utterance_id":1278,"speaker_name":100,"text":1279,"start_s":1280,"end_s":1281,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},204,"85607","Brasil había crecido enormemente hasta 1980 y desde entonces estaba creciendo muy lentamente.",1138.96,1145.52,{"idx":1283,"utterance_id":1284,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1285,"start_s":1286,"end_s":1287,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},205,"85608","Fueron dos décadas perdidas desde el punto de vista del crecimiento.",1145.8,1148.48,{"idx":1289,"utterance_id":1290,"speaker_name":100,"text":1291,"start_s":1292,"end_s":1293,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},206,"85609","Ahora son cuatro.",1148.56,1149.42,{"idx":1295,"utterance_id":1296,"speaker_name":100,"text":1297,"start_s":1298,"end_s":1299,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},207,"85610","Porque escribí, cuando salí del gobierno, escribí un artículo sobre los 20 años de casi estancamiento de Brasil.",1150.24,1156.62,{"idx":1301,"utterance_id":1302,"speaker_name":100,"text":1303,"start_s":1304,"end_s":1305,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},208,"85611","Después, algunos años después, escribí sobre la macroeconomía del estancamiento brasileño.",1156.7,1161.14,{"idx":1307,"utterance_id":1308,"speaker_name":100,"text":1309,"start_s":1310,"end_s":1311,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},209,"85612","Después escribí sobre los 27 años.",1161.2,1162.96,{"idx":1313,"utterance_id":1314,"speaker_name":100,"text":1315,"start_s":1316,"end_s":1317,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},210,"85613","Después los 37 y ahora los 40.",1163.38,1165.1,{"idx":1319,"utterance_id":1320,"speaker_name":100,"text":1321,"start_s":1322,"end_s":1323,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},211,"85614","Fue el último artículo que escribí.",1165.48,1166.6,{"idx":1325,"utterance_id":1326,"speaker_name":100,"text":1327,"start_s":1328,"end_s":1329,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},212,"85615","Una tragedia.",1166.64,1167.74,{"idx":1331,"utterance_id":1332,"speaker_name":100,"text":1333,"start_s":1334,"end_s":1335,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},213,"85616","Quiero decir, necesitaba entender eso, necesitaba encontrar una solución para eso.",1168.7,1173.02,{"idx":1337,"utterance_id":1338,"speaker_name":100,"text":1339,"start_s":1340,"end_s":1341,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},214,"85617","Y la solución que encontré, y hoy tengo un gran grupo de economistas participando de esto aquí, se llama nuevo desarrollismo.",1173.18,1181.28,{"idx":270,"utterance_id":1343,"speaker_name":100,"text":1344,"start_s":1345,"end_s":1346,"word_count":290,"indexable":75},"85618","Y, mira, la idea fundamental es cuáles fueron los países que realmente tuvieron un gran éxito en desarrollarse en el siglo XX y llevaron a cabo el llamado catching up, el alcance de los niveles de desarrollo de los países ricos.",1182.62,1197.8,{"idx":1348,"utterance_id":1349,"speaker_name":100,"text":1350,"start_s":1351,"end_s":1352,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},216,"85619","Fueron los países del este asiático.",1198.44,1199.86,{"idx":1354,"utterance_id":1355,"speaker_name":100,"text":1356,"start_s":1357,"end_s":1358,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},217,"85620","Fue Corea del Sur, Taiwán, Singapur y más tarde China.",1200.24,1205.42,{"idx":1360,"utterance_id":1361,"speaker_name":100,"text":1362,"start_s":1363,"end_s":1364,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},218,"85621","Japón había sido un poco antes.",1205.9,1207.22,{"idx":1366,"utterance_id":1367,"speaker_name":100,"text":1368,"start_s":1369,"end_s":1370,"word_count":183,"indexable":75},219,"85622","Es decir, hubo algunos estudios importantes todavía en los años 80, mostrando que esos países habían hecho política industrial.",1209.2,1217.56,{"idx":1372,"utterance_id":1373,"speaker_name":100,"text":1374,"start_s":1375,"end_s":1376,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},220,"85623","Política industrial, entonces, ¿eso es lo que la izquierda desarrollista brasileña, latinoamericana, si no mundial, pasó a resolver?",1218.84,1226.7,{"idx":1378,"utterance_id":1379,"speaker_name":100,"text":1380,"start_s":1381,"end_s":1382,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},221,"85624","Está resuelto.",1226.82,1228.4,{"idx":1384,"utterance_id":1385,"speaker_name":100,"text":1386,"start_s":1387,"end_s":1388,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},222,"85625","La solución para el desarrollo es la política industrial.",1228.76,1230.8,{"idx":1390,"utterance_id":1391,"speaker_name":100,"text":1392,"start_s":1393,"end_s":1394,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},223,"85626","En la época del desarrollismo clásico...",1231.24,1232.6,{"idx":1396,"utterance_id":1397,"speaker_name":100,"text":1398,"start_s":1399,"end_s":1400,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},224,"85627","Se redujo a eso, ¿no es así?",1232.64,1233.42,{"idx":1402,"utterance_id":1403,"speaker_name":100,"text":1404,"start_s":1405,"end_s":1406,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},225,"85628","Se redujo a eso.",1233.46,1234.3,{"idx":1408,"utterance_id":1409,"speaker_name":100,"text":1410,"start_s":1411,"end_s":1412,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},226,"85629","Es decir, antes era planificación económica, ahora era política industrial.",1235.18,1238.76,{"idx":1414,"utterance_id":1415,"speaker_name":100,"text":1416,"start_s":1417,"end_s":1418,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},227,"85630","Aquí miré... Dije, bueno, estoy a favor de la política industrial, siempre lo he sido, creo que sigue siendo algo necesario.",1240.62,1245.38,{"idx":1420,"utterance_id":1421,"speaker_name":100,"text":1422,"start_s":1423,"end_s":1424,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},228,"85631","Todo país que quiere desarrollarse lo hace; basta mirar históricamente.",1245.42,1248.56,{"idx":17,"utterance_id":1426,"speaker_name":100,"text":1427,"start_s":1428,"end_s":1429,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},"85632","Pero veamos lo que ocurrió en los países del este asiático.",1249,1251.84,{"idx":1431,"utterance_id":1432,"speaker_name":100,"text":1433,"start_s":1434,"end_s":1435,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},230,"85633","Es decir, ¿qué pasó con los... Ahí vi esa idea, con los cinco precios macroeconómicos.",1253.06,1258.14,{"idx":1437,"utterance_id":1438,"speaker_name":100,"text":1439,"start_s":1440,"end_s":1441,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},231,"85634","Es decir, ¿los mantuvieron, estaban bien esos precios?",1259.06,1262.82,{"idx":1443,"utterance_id":1444,"speaker_name":100,"text":1445,"start_s":1446,"end_s":1447,"word_count":422,"indexable":75},232,"85635","Los mantuvieron siempre, porque al mismo tiempo yo estaba percibiendo que en Brasil —y no solo en Brasil, sino en países de renta media como Brasil— ocurría que la tasa de interés tendía a ser muy alta, la tasa de cambio, en consecuencia, tendía a estar muy apreciada, y eso inviabilizaba la actividad económica.",1263.54,1280.6,{"idx":1449,"utterance_id":1450,"speaker_name":100,"text":1451,"start_s":1452,"end_s":1453,"word_count":183,"indexable":75},233,"85636","La tasa de inflación era alta, después bajó, pero a costa del tipo de cambio... lo cual era muy malo.",1281.38,1289.32,{"idx":1455,"utterance_id":1456,"speaker_name":100,"text":1457,"start_s":1458,"end_s":1459,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},234,"85637","Entonces fui desarrollando una teoría por ese lado, pero al mismo tiempo me pregunté: ¿qué es el Estado desarrollista?",1290.46,1297.6,{"idx":1461,"utterance_id":1462,"speaker_name":100,"text":1463,"start_s":1464,"end_s":1465,"word_count":290,"indexable":75},235,"85638","Así, el Estado desarrollista, para mí, no es solo el Estado que hace política industrial, que invierte en infraestructura, que se preocupa por la educación y la salud, que busca... el desarrollo tecnológico y la política industrial.",1298.4,1315.66,{"idx":1467,"utterance_id":1468,"speaker_name":100,"text":1469,"start_s":1470,"end_s":1471,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},236,"85639","No es solo eso.",1315.7,1316.26,{"idx":1473,"utterance_id":1474,"speaker_name":100,"text":1475,"start_s":1476,"end_s":1477,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},237,"85640","Es eso y también es, como dijiste, como presupuesto, garantizar permanentemente, a través de una política activa, el equilibrio o mantener ciertos precios macroeconómicos.",1316.4,1330.68,{"idx":1479,"utterance_id":1480,"speaker_name":100,"text":1481,"start_s":1482,"end_s":1483,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},238,"85641","Porque, ¿cuál es la diferencia entre un desarrollista y un liberal?",1331.38,1335.28,{"idx":1485,"utterance_id":1486,"speaker_name":100,"text":1487,"start_s":1488,"end_s":1489,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},239,"85642","Porque, en el fondo, hay dos teorías básicas de la economía.",1335.32,1338.2,{"idx":1491,"utterance_id":1492,"speaker_name":100,"text":1493,"start_s":1494,"end_s":1495,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},240,"85643","O eres liberal o eres desarrollista.",1338.82,1341.22,{"idx":1497,"utterance_id":1498,"speaker_name":100,"text":1499,"start_s":1500,"end_s":1501,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},241,"85644","Los keynesianos, para mí, son desarrollistas.",1342.6,1344.44,{"idx":1503,"utterance_id":1504,"speaker_name":100,"text":1505,"start_s":1506,"end_s":1507,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},242,"85645","Es decir, hay varios tipos de desarrollismo, con distintos grados, pero es una u otra.",1344.84,1350.26,{"idx":1509,"utterance_id":1510,"speaker_name":100,"text":1511,"start_s":1512,"end_s":1513,"word_count":267,"indexable":75},243,"85646","Es decir, y lo que dice el desarrollismo es que hay ciertas cosas que no son competitivas, el sector de la infraestructura, el sector de la industria básica; por eso es necesario que el Estado planifique.",1350.86,1361.8,{"idx":23,"utterance_id":1515,"speaker_name":100,"text":1516,"start_s":1517,"end_s":1518,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},"85647","Hay ciertos sectores que hay que proteger porque existe el problema de la... de la industria incipiente, así que hay que invertir.",1363.34,1370.04,{"idx":1520,"utterance_id":1521,"speaker_name":100,"text":1522,"start_s":1523,"end_s":1524,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},245,"85648","Hay ciertos sectores, entonces, que justifican la intervención microeconómica.",1370.68,1374.22,{"idx":1526,"utterance_id":1527,"speaker_name":100,"text":1528,"start_s":1529,"end_s":1530,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},246,"85649","Muy bien.",1374.82,1375.18,{"idx":1532,"utterance_id":1533,"speaker_name":100,"text":1534,"start_s":1535,"end_s":1536,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},247,"85650","Porque los precios, el mercado no funciona tan bien como nos gustaría.",1375.68,1379.4,{"idx":1538,"utterance_id":1539,"speaker_name":100,"text":1540,"start_s":1541,"end_s":1542,"word_count":183,"indexable":75},248,"85651","Aunque el mercado sea una maravillosa institución de coordinación económica, es insustituible para lo que es realmente competitivo.",1379.7,1388.06,{"idx":1544,"utterance_id":1545,"speaker_name":100,"text":1546,"start_s":1547,"end_s":1548,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},249,"85652","Es una institución basada en la competencia.",1389.06,1390.74,{"idx":1550,"utterance_id":1551,"speaker_name":100,"text":1552,"start_s":1553,"end_s":1554,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},250,"85653","Ahora, el otro aspecto del que nadie hablaba, esto es novedoso, es que... El mercado también es absolutamente incapaz de colocar en el lugar correcto esos cinco precios.",1391.28,1401.32,{"idx":1556,"utterance_id":1557,"speaker_name":100,"text":1558,"start_s":1559,"end_s":1560,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},251,"85654","Entonces, ¿qué ocurrió en los países del este asiático?",1402.22,1404.44,{"idx":1562,"utterance_id":1563,"speaker_name":100,"text":1564,"start_s":1565,"end_s":1566,"word_count":273,"indexable":75},252,"85655","Administraron esos precios con mucha firmeza, especialmente el tipo de cambio, que mantuvieron competitivo, y la tasa de interés que siempre mantuvieron muy baja, y por eso garantizaron una tasa de ganancia satisfactoria para los empresarios.",1404.5,1416.14,{"idx":1568,"utterance_id":1569,"speaker_name":100,"text":1570,"start_s":1571,"end_s":1572,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},253,"85656","Aseguraron el equilibrio.",1417.56,1418.82,{"idx":1574,"utterance_id":1575,"speaker_name":100,"text":1576,"start_s":1577,"end_s":1578,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},254,"85657","Y algo muy importante, no... fueron irresponsables desde el punto de vista fiscal.",1419.6,1425.38,{"idx":1580,"utterance_id":1581,"speaker_name":100,"text":1582,"start_s":1583,"end_s":1584,"word_count":273,"indexable":75},255,"85658","Existe una idea en la izquierda y en la prensa en general de que la diferencia entre izquierda y derecha en materia macroeconómica es que la izquierda es austera, la derecha es austera y la izquierda es derrochadora.",1426.24,1438.18,{"idx":1586,"utterance_id":1587,"speaker_name":100,"text":1588,"start_s":1589,"end_s":1590,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},256,"85659","Me parece una locura.",1439.38,1440.32,{"idx":1592,"utterance_id":1593,"speaker_name":100,"text":1594,"start_s":1595,"end_s":1596,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},257,"85660","O sea, sé muy bien lo que es la austeridad.",1440.68,1443.4,{"idx":1598,"utterance_id":1599,"speaker_name":100,"text":1600,"start_s":1601,"end_s":1602,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},258,"85661","Es una tontería como esa la que se está cometiendo hoy en Brasil por este gobierno, en realidad, desde 2015.",1443.82,1449.8,{"idx":1604,"utterance_id":1605,"speaker_name":100,"text":1606,"start_s":1607,"end_s":1608,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},259,"85662","Una crisis tremenda y usted, en vez de hacer una expansión fiscal contracíclica, está ahí conteniendo, reduciendo la inversión.",1450.84,1459.1,{"idx":1610,"utterance_id":1611,"speaker_name":100,"text":1612,"start_s":1613,"end_s":1614,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},260,"85663","Tiene que estar aumentando la inversión.",1459.14,1460.56,{"idx":1616,"utterance_id":1617,"speaker_name":100,"text":1618,"start_s":1619,"end_s":1620,"word_count":239,"indexable":75},261,"85664","Pero, cuando uno mira los países que realmente se desarrollaron, verá que siempre mantuvieron una... la estabilidad fiscal y, además, mantuvieron un ahorro público.",1460.94,1473.8,{"idx":1622,"utterance_id":1623,"speaker_name":100,"text":1624,"start_s":1625,"end_s":1626,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},262,"85665","Yo defiendo ese ahorro público desde hace muchos años.",1474.48,1476.72,{"idx":1628,"utterance_id":1629,"speaker_name":100,"text":1630,"start_s":1631,"end_s":1632,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},263,"85666","Es decir, el ahorro público es la diferencia entre lo que el Estado recauda de ingresos y lo que gasta en gastos corrientes.",1477.24,1483.56,{"idx":1634,"utterance_id":1635,"speaker_name":100,"text":1636,"start_s":1637,"end_s":1638,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},264,"85667","Es lo que sobra y sirve para que el Estado invierta.",1485.96,1489.1,{"idx":1640,"utterance_id":1641,"speaker_name":100,"text":1642,"start_s":1643,"end_s":1644,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},265,"85668","Porque en una sociedad capitalista como la nuestra, el Estado debe invertir más o menos el 20%.",1489.66,1494.98,{"idx":1646,"utterance_id":1647,"speaker_name":100,"text":1648,"start_s":1649,"end_s":1650,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},266,"85669","Y la inversión que realiza el Estado, alrededor del 20% del total de la inversión, ayuda mucho a la inversión privada; no compite con la inversión privada.",1496.66,1504.72,{"idx":1652,"utterance_id":1653,"speaker_name":100,"text":1654,"start_s":1655,"end_s":1656,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},267,"85670","A veces es el buque insignia.",1505.76,1507.14,{"idx":1658,"utterance_id":1659,"speaker_name":100,"text":1660,"start_s":1661,"end_s":1662,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},268,"85671","Entonces esa teoría existe.",1507.18,1508.62,{"idx":1664,"utterance_id":1665,"speaker_name":100,"text":1666,"start_s":1667,"end_s":1668,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},269,"85672","Y espero que esa teoría vaya ganando cada vez más interés.",1509.74,1513.82,{"idx":1670,"utterance_id":1671,"speaker_name":100,"text":1672,"start_s":1673,"end_s":1674,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},270,"85673","Hemos organizado seminarios internacionales, viene gente de fuera de Brasil, de varios países a discutir con nosotros, etc.",1514.2,1521.52,{"idx":1676,"utterance_id":1677,"speaker_name":100,"text":1678,"start_s":1679,"end_s":1680,"word_count":181,"indexable":75},271,"85674","Muchos de nuestros papers están en la revista de economía política, que ahora se llama Brazilian Journal of Political Economy, tiene el nombre en inglés también.",1523.78,1530.02,{"idx":1682,"utterance_id":1683,"speaker_name":100,"text":1684,"start_s":1685,"end_s":1686,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},272,"85675","Y con eso vamos viendo si Brasil se recupera, porque Brasil necesita dramáticamente reencontrar su camino en el plano económico.",1531.02,1539.38,{"idx":1688,"utterance_id":1689,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1690,"start_s":1691,"end_s":1692,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},273,"85676","Brasileño, termino esta conversación que podría extenderse por una semana con la siguiente pregunta.",1539.78,1546.66,{"idx":1694,"utterance_id":1695,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1696,"start_s":1697,"end_s":1698,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},274,"85677","Usted es una persona que vivió intensamente la... la vida nacional.",1547.38,1552.76,{"idx":1700,"utterance_id":1701,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1702,"start_s":1703,"end_s":1704,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},275,"85678","Usted participó en gobiernos, usted participó en la vida académica.",1552.8,1557.28,{"idx":1706,"utterance_id":1707,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1708,"start_s":1709,"end_s":1710,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},276,"85679","Estamos en un momento delicado.",1558.9,1560.28,{"idx":1712,"utterance_id":1713,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1714,"start_s":1715,"end_s":1716,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},277,"85680","Brasil está en una encrucijada difícil.",1560.74,1562.96,{"idx":1718,"utterance_id":1719,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1720,"start_s":1721,"end_s":1722,"word_count":183,"indexable":75},278,"85681","¿Cuáles son las fuerzas sociales que usted vislumbra que podrían estar en la mesa para superar este momento difícil?",1563.8,1573.54,{"idx":1724,"utterance_id":1725,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1726,"start_s":1727,"end_s":1728,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},279,"85682","Ese proyecto exige gente.",1574.08,1576.12,{"idx":1730,"utterance_id":1731,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1732,"start_s":1733,"end_s":1734,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},280,"85683","Tiene que haber gente detrás de eso.",1576.64,1577.98,{"idx":1736,"utterance_id":1737,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1738,"start_s":1739,"end_s":1740,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},281,"85684","Fuerzas políticas, movimiento popular, movimiento social, movimiento empresarial.",1578.48,1582.88,{"idx":1742,"utterance_id":1743,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1744,"start_s":1745,"end_s":1746,"word_count":251,"indexable":75},282,"85685","Cómo, a la luz de toda su experiencia, que abarca más de 50 años de experiencia vivida de verdad, no como espectador sino como partícipe, ¿quiénes son los actores de ese proyecto?",1583.82,1598.06,{"idx":1748,"utterance_id":1749,"speaker_name":100,"text":1750,"start_s":1751,"end_s":1752,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},283,"85686","Entonces, mire, esto es muy difícil de responder.",1598.72,1600.38,{"idx":1754,"utterance_id":1755,"speaker_name":100,"text":1756,"start_s":1757,"end_s":1758,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},284,"85687","En principio, nos gustaría que volviera a existir un gran pacto nacional desarrollista, que involucrara a empresarios, trabajadores, clases medias, la burocracia pública que volvería a ser nacional.",1602.16,1612.7,{"idx":1760,"utterance_id":1761,"speaker_name":100,"text":1762,"start_s":1763,"end_s":1764,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},285,"85688","Porque Brasil se desnacionalizó profundamente.",1614.98,1617.3,{"idx":1766,"utterance_id":1767,"speaker_name":100,"text":1768,"start_s":1769,"end_s":1770,"word_count":183,"indexable":75},286,"85689","La estagnación, cuando uno defiende la nación y el desarrollo económico, un proyecto de nación, también está defendiendo el crecimiento.",1618.08,1627.78,{"idx":1772,"utterance_id":1773,"speaker_name":100,"text":1774,"start_s":1775,"end_s":1776,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},287,"85690","Perdimos todo eso.",1628.26,1629.54,{"idx":1778,"utterance_id":1779,"speaker_name":100,"text":1780,"start_s":1781,"end_s":1782,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},288,"85691","La clase empresarial hoy está destruida.",1632.72,1636.2,{"idx":1784,"utterance_id":1785,"speaker_name":100,"text":1786,"start_s":1787,"end_s":1788,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},289,"85692","El éxito del imperialismo en acabar con nuestra industria, o en comprarla, pero generalmente es acabar con ella.",1638.68,1644.42,{"idx":1790,"utterance_id":1791,"speaker_name":100,"text":1792,"start_s":1793,"end_s":1794,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},290,"85693","Por eso, simplemente, hoy Brasil, la industria representa el 10% del PIB, llegó a representar 26%, 27%.",1644.48,1651.04,{"idx":1796,"utterance_id":1797,"speaker_name":100,"text":1798,"start_s":1799,"end_s":1800,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},291,"85694","Es una desindustrialización profunda.",1651.92,1654.02,{"idx":29,"utterance_id":1802,"speaker_name":100,"text":1803,"start_s":1804,"end_s":1805,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},"85695","Ahora, hay algo interesante, es decir, hubo un gran politólogo marxista llamado Pulantzas.",1655.1,1661.44,{"idx":1807,"utterance_id":1808,"speaker_name":100,"text":1809,"start_s":1810,"end_s":1811,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},293,"85696","Y el Raio de Pulantzas hizo un análisis fascinante sobre el Estado.",1662.4,1667.14,{"idx":1813,"utterance_id":1814,"speaker_name":100,"text":1815,"start_s":1816,"end_s":1817,"word_count":43,"indexable":75},294,"85697","Mostró, en cierto momento, y sobre las clases sociales, que en determinados momentos es el Estado el que, hasta cierto punto, crea las clases sociales.",1667.78,1675.84,{"idx":1819,"utterance_id":1820,"speaker_name":100,"text":1821,"start_s":1822,"end_s":1823,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},295,"85698","Eso fue claramente crear, quiero decir, reconocer y darles identidad.",1676.5,1680,{"idx":1825,"utterance_id":1826,"speaker_name":100,"text":1827,"start_s":1828,"end_s":1829,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},296,"85699","Como que constituye, por así decirlo.",1680.84,1682.78,{"idx":371,"utterance_id":1831,"speaker_name":100,"text":1832,"start_s":1833,"end_s":1834,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},"85700","Eso, 'como que constituye', es mejor que 'crea'.",1682.82,1684.44,{"idx":1836,"utterance_id":1837,"speaker_name":100,"text":1838,"start_s":1839,"end_s":1840,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},298,"85701","Eso fue lo que ocurrió muy claramente con Getúlio Vargas allá en los años 30 y 40.",1685.08,1689.76,{"idx":1842,"utterance_id":1843,"speaker_name":100,"text":1844,"start_s":1845,"end_s":1846,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},299,"85702","Él constituyó como clase a la clase trabajadora, a la clase de los empresarios industriales y a la burocracia pública moderna brasileña, que fueron los grandes actores.",1690.44,1699.3,{"idx":1848,"utterance_id":1849,"speaker_name":100,"text":1850,"start_s":1851,"end_s":1852,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},300,"85703","Quiero decir, entonces Brasil necesita nuevamente de esa construcción.",1699.78,1702.86,{"idx":1854,"utterance_id":1855,"speaker_name":100,"text":1856,"start_s":1857,"end_s":1858,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},301,"85704","¿Cómo se hace eso?",1704.1,1705.06,{"idx":1860,"utterance_id":1861,"speaker_name":100,"text":1862,"start_s":1863,"end_s":1864,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},302,"85705","No existe ninguna fórmula mágica.",1705.32,1708.3,{"idx":34,"utterance_id":1866,"speaker_name":100,"text":1867,"start_s":1868,"end_s":1869,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},"85706","Pero, quiero decir, nunca Brasil necesitó tan fuertemente desarmar sus espíritus y unirse.",1708.4,1714.98,{"idx":1871,"utterance_id":1872,"speaker_name":100,"text":1873,"start_s":1874,"end_s":1875,"word_count":60,"indexable":75},304,"85707","Entonces, eso permite que sectores que están alienados, creyendo que el liberalismo económico puede resolver nuestros problemas, eso es algo ridículo.",1716.58,1727.58,{"idx":1877,"utterance_id":1878,"speaker_name":100,"text":1879,"start_s":1880,"end_s":1881,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},305,"85708","La gran diferencia entre el desarrollismo y el liberalismo, en términos de resultados, es la siguiente.",1728.78,1733.58,{"idx":1883,"utterance_id":1884,"speaker_name":100,"text":1885,"start_s":1886,"end_s":1887,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},306,"85709","El liberalismo económico, en un país como Brasil o como Argentina, en un país aún en desarrollo, la probabilidad de que promueva el desarrollo económico es cero.",1734.04,1742.48,{"idx":1889,"utterance_id":1890,"speaker_name":100,"text":1891,"start_s":1892,"end_s":1893,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},307,"85710","No tiene ninguna posibilidad.",1743.2,1744.22,{"idx":1895,"utterance_id":1896,"speaker_name":100,"text":1897,"start_s":1898,"end_s":1899,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},308,"85711","La probabilidad del desarrollismo es, digamos, del 50%.",1744.9,1747.64,{"idx":1901,"utterance_id":1902,"speaker_name":100,"text":1903,"start_s":1904,"end_s":1905,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},309,"85712","Si se administra bien, funciona.",1748.42,1750.06,{"idx":1907,"utterance_id":1908,"speaker_name":100,"text":1909,"start_s":1910,"end_s":1911,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},310,"85713","Si no se administra bien, va a...",1750.14,1751.42,{"idx":1913,"utterance_id":1914,"speaker_name":100,"text":1915,"start_s":1916,"end_s":1917,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},311,"85714","Brazzer.",1753.24,1753.54,{"idx":1919,"utterance_id":1920,"speaker_name":100,"text":1921,"start_s":1922,"end_s":1923,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},312,"85715","Un honor y un placer conversar con usted.",1753.58,1756.28,{"idx":1925,"utterance_id":1926,"speaker_name":100,"text":1927,"start_s":1928,"end_s":1929,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},313,"85716","Es un placer hablar con usted también.",1756.32,1757.56,{"idx":1931,"utterance_id":1932,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1933,"start_s":1934,"end_s":1935,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},314,"85717","Acabo de entrevistar al profesor Luiz Carlos Brazzer Pereira.",1757.64,1760.52,{"idx":1937,"utterance_id":1938,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1939,"start_s":1940,"end_s":1941,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},315,"85718","La próxima semana estaré aquí con una nueva entrevista para discutir la realidad brasileña y latinoamericana, siempre a las 20h, en All TV y en las redes sociales.",1760.84,1770.6,{"idx":1943,"utterance_id":1944,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1945,"start_s":1946,"end_s":1947,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},316,"85719","Buenas noches.",1771.06,1780.84,"es",{"job_id":1950,"title":1951,"source_url":1952,"platform":1953,"content_type":1954,"published_at":1955,"duration_sec":1956,"n_classified":1957,"speakers":1958},"9f4e64fc-f35c-48a8-9c81-e2abd5f093dd","Painel Haddad (23\u002F09\u002F2019) - BRESSER PEREIRA","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002Fwatch?v=g2009L9fCwo","youtube","video","2019-09-23T23:00:11Z",1780.854438,317,[1959],{"name":69,"slug":70,"n_falas":410},"https:\u002F\u002Fi.ytimg.com\u002Fvi\u002Fg2009L9fCwo\u002Fhqdefault.jpg",{"limit":4,"offset":5,"speakers":1962,"total":284},[1963,1977,1989,1998,2006,2017,2028,2036,2043,2054],{"slug":1964,"name":1965,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":1966,"n_speeches":1967,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1968,"photo_url":1972,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":1973,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":1975},"renan-santos","Renan Santos","",22525,[1969,1970,1971],"Abuso de Autoridad","Acciones afirmativas","Acción ejecutiva","\u002Fprofiles\u002Frenan-santos\u002Fphoto.png","Q51882553","none",{"twitter":1976},"@RenanSantosMBL",{"slug":1978,"name":1979,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":1980,"n_speeches":1981,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1982,"photo_url":1985,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":1986,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":1987},"romeu-zema","Romeu Zema","MG",12888,[1971,1983,1984],"Activismo político","Afiliación Partidaria","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fromeu-zema\u002Fphoto.png","Q57092113",{"twitter":1988},"@RomeuZema",{"slug":1990,"name":1991,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":1966,"n_speeches":1992,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1993,"bio_short":1966,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":1995},"pablo-marcal","Pablo Marçal",12772,[1994,1971,1983],"Acción Humanitaria",{"twitter":1996,"youtube":1997},"@pablomarcal","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002F@pablomarcall",{"slug":70,"name":69,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":1999,"n_speeches":2000,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2001,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":2004,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2005},"SP",12647,[1984,2002,2003],"Agricultura y agronegocio","Alianzas políticas","Q3069485",{},{"slug":2007,"name":2008,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":2009,"n_speeches":2010,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2011,"photo_url":2013,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":2014,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2015},"ronaldo-caiado","Ronaldo Caiado","GO",12538,[1970,1984,2012],"Agenda Pública","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fronaldo-caiado\u002Fphoto.png","Q10364348",{"twitter":2016},"@ronaldocaiado",{"slug":2018,"name":2019,"party":1966,"role":2020,"state":1999,"n_speeches":2021,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2022,"photo_url":2024,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":2025,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2026},"tarcisio","Tarcisio","Governador",11298,[2023,1984,2012],"Actos Legislativos Locales","\u002Fprofiles\u002Ftarcisio\u002Fphoto.png","Q60392579",{"twitter":2027},"tarcisiogdf",{"slug":2029,"name":2030,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":1966,"n_speeches":2031,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2032,"photo_url":2033,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":2034,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2035},"luis-inacio-lula-da-silva","Luis Inacio Lula da Silva",10531,[1983,1984,2002],"\u002Fprofiles\u002Fluis-inacio-lula-da-silva\u002Fphoto.png","Q37181",{},{"slug":2037,"name":2038,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":1966,"n_speeches":2039,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2040,"bio_short":1966,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2042},"augusto-cury","Augusto Cury",8912,[1971,2002,2041],"Agro y desarrollo regional",{},{"slug":2044,"name":2045,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":1999,"n_speeches":2046,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2047,"photo_url":2050,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":2051,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2052},"kim-kataguiri","Kim Kataguiri",8748,[2048,1971,2049],"Abono Salarial","Activismo judicial","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fkim-kataguiri\u002Fphoto.png","Q21715169",{"twitter":2053},"@KimKataguiri",{"slug":2055,"name":2056,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":2057,"n_speeches":2058,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2059,"photo_url":2061,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":2062,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2063},"flavio-bolsonaro","Flavio Bolsonaro","RJ",8066,[2060,1971,1983],"Acción de oposición","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fflavio-bolsonaro\u002Fphoto.png","Q10283057",{"twitter":2064},"@FlavioBolsonaro"]