[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"transcript-7f522a24-61fa-4021-a98e-34b4e574ed76-es":3,"transcript-poster-7f522a24-61fa-4021-a98e-34b4e574ed76":1984,"footer-top-topics-es":1985,"footer-top-speakers-es":2028},{"falas":4,"lang":1972,"meta":1973},[5,15,22,29,35,42,47,54,61,68,74,79,86,91,98,105,111,118,125,131,137,144,150,155,160,166,172,177,182,188,194,200,206,211,217,222,228,233,238,244,250,255,261,267,273,279,285,291,297,302,308,314,319,325,331,337,343,349,355,361,367,373,379,385,391,397,403,409,415,421,427,433,439,445,451,457,463,469,475,481,487,493,499,505,511,517,523,529,535,541,547,553,559,565,571,577,583,589,595,601,607,613,619,625,631,637,643,649,655,661,667,673,679,685,691,697,702,708,714,720,726,732,738,744,750,756,762,768,774,780,786,792,798,804,810,816,822,828,834,840,846,852,858,864,870,876,882,888,894,900,906,912,918,924,930,935,941,947,953,959,965,971,977,983,989,995,1001,1007,1013,1019,1025,1031,1037,1043,1049,1055,1061,1067,1073,1079,1085,1091,1097,1103,1109,1115,1121,1127,1133,1139,1145,1151,1157,1163,1169,1175,1181,1187,1193,1199,1205,1211,1217,1223,1229,1235,1241,1247,1253,1259,1265,1271,1277,1282,1288,1294,1300,1306,1312,1318,1324,1330,1336,1342,1348,1354,1360,1366,1372,1378,1384,1390,1396,1402,1408,1414,1420,1426,1432,1438,1444,1450,1456,1462,1468,1474,1480,1486,1492,1498,1504,1510,1516,1522,1528,1534,1540,1546,1552,1558,1564,1570,1576,1582,1588,1594,1600,1606,1612,1618,1624,1630,1636,1642,1648,1654,1660,1666,1672,1678,1684,1690,1696,1702,1708,1714,1720,1726,1732,1738,1744,1750,1756,1762,1768,1774,1780,1786,1792,1798,1804,1810,1816,1822,1828,1834,1840,1846,1852,1858,1864,1870,1876,1882,1888,1894,1900,1906,1912,1918,1924,1930,1936,1942,1948,1954,1960,1966],{"idx":6,"utterance_id":7,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":10,"start_s":11,"end_s":12,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},0,"67306","Fernando Haddad","fernando-haddad","Hoy con el periodista y profesor de la USP, Eugênio Gutt, ex-presidente de la Rádio Brasa, actual columnista del Estadão, autor, entre otros trabajos, de O Estado de Narciso y A Forma Bruta dos Protestos, ambos libros editados por Companhia das Letras.",9.74,25.52,40,false,{"idx":16,"utterance_id":17,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":18,"start_s":19,"end_s":20,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},1,"67307","Buenas noches, Eugênio.",26.18,26.82,3,{"idx":23,"utterance_id":24,"speaker_name":25,"text":26,"start_s":27,"end_s":28,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},2,"67308","Desconhecido","Buenas noches, Fernando.",27.12,28,{"idx":21,"utterance_id":30,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":31,"start_s":32,"end_s":33,"word_count":34,"indexable":14},"67309","¿Cuál es la gran diferencia entre trabajar para una empresa privada que tiene un propietario... y trabajar para una empresa pública, desempeñándose en ambas como periodista?",28.8,40.24,26,{"idx":36,"utterance_id":37,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":38,"start_s":39,"end_s":40,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},4,"67310","¿Cuál es el gran diferencial?",40.98,42.52,5,{"idx":41,"utterance_id":43,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":44,"start_s":45,"end_s":46,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},"67311","Si existe un diferencial.",43.78,44.68,{"idx":48,"utterance_id":49,"speaker_name":25,"text":50,"start_s":51,"end_s":52,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},6,"67312","Esa es una pregunta complicadísima, porque en la Rádio Brás yo era un periodista, pero no me veía ejerciendo la función de periodista.",44.92,55.94,23,{"idx":55,"utterance_id":56,"speaker_name":25,"text":57,"start_s":58,"end_s":59,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},7,"67313","Yo era el presidente de la empresa, yo era un ejecutivo.",56.06,59.06,10,{"idx":62,"utterance_id":63,"speaker_name":25,"text":64,"start_s":65,"end_s":66,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},8,"67314","Por lo tanto, yo no... desempeñaba funciones de editor o de periodista en las redacciones.",59.72,65.84,12,{"idx":69,"utterance_id":70,"speaker_name":25,"text":71,"start_s":72,"end_s":73,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},9,"67315","Teníamos una planificación muy compleja elaborada en la ENAP, que es la Escuela Nacional de Administración Pública, y teníamos planes específicos, misiones, para cada uno de los programas, para cada una de las emisoras, y allí teníamos equipos y periodistas y editores.",66.24,88.88,{"idx":60,"utterance_id":75,"speaker_name":25,"text":76,"start_s":77,"end_s":78,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},"67316","encargados de desempeñar las funciones periodísticas.",89.88,92.98,{"idx":80,"utterance_id":81,"speaker_name":25,"text":82,"start_s":83,"end_s":84,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},11,"67317","No solo no intervenía en las funciones, no hacía la edición, no elaboraba la pauta, no dictaba la pauta, sino que impedía que personas ajenas a esas funciones, incluso del gobierno, intentaran interferir en esas pautas.",93.22,111.22,34,{"idx":67,"utterance_id":87,"speaker_name":25,"text":88,"start_s":89,"end_s":90,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},"67318","Y, en parte, tuve éxito.",111.78,114.16,{"idx":92,"utterance_id":93,"speaker_name":25,"text":94,"start_s":95,"end_s":96,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},13,"67319","En mi condición de ejecutivo o de presidente de la empresa, aprendí mucho, repito, fue un período muy bueno de mi vida.",116.08,125.16,22,{"idx":99,"utterance_id":100,"speaker_name":25,"text":101,"start_s":102,"end_s":103,"word_count":104,"indexable":14},14,"67320","Me gustaba, disfrutaba de ese trabajo, me realizaba, sentía que estaba poniendo en práctica el conocimiento que había acumulado a lo largo de la vida.",125.32,134.62,25,{"idx":106,"utterance_id":107,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":108,"start_s":109,"end_s":110,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},15,"67321","¿Qué se espera de un periodista en esas dos posiciones?",136.56,139.82,{"idx":112,"utterance_id":113,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":114,"start_s":115,"end_s":116,"word_count":117,"indexable":14},16,"67322","Cuando das clase y alguien te pregunta, mira, ¿un periodista es periodista en cualquier lugar, o tiene que tener ciertos cuidados cuando está en una empresa pública, que eventualmente sean distintos, no estoy diciendo mejores o peores, pero distintos de cuando actúa en una empresa privada?",140.08,157.56,48,{"idx":119,"utterance_id":120,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":121,"start_s":122,"end_s":123,"word_count":124,"indexable":14},17,"67323","La actuación del periodista, como tal, desde el punto de vista de los principios que debe observar, de las directrices, de la conducta, ¿difiere, tiene algún cambio entre una cosa y otra?",158.42,174.04,32,{"idx":126,"utterance_id":127,"speaker_name":25,"text":128,"start_s":129,"end_s":130,"word_count":99,"indexable":14},18,"67324","Existe variación entre redacciones comerciales, entre unas y otras, y también en el gobierno.",174.82,181.48,{"idx":132,"utterance_id":133,"speaker_name":25,"text":134,"start_s":135,"end_s":136,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},19,"67325","Eso es muy confuso en Brasil y te explico rápidamente por qué.",182.06,187.66,{"idx":138,"utterance_id":139,"speaker_name":25,"text":140,"start_s":141,"end_s":142,"word_count":143,"indexable":14},20,"67326","Si estamos, por ejemplo, en Europa... en una empresa como la BBC, que es una empresa pública, el periodista allí desempeña una función periodística con la independencia asegurada por todos los estatutos y por la constitución de esa organización y también por una costumbre que viene desde la primera mitad del siglo XX.",188.36,211.26,51,{"idx":145,"utterance_id":146,"speaker_name":25,"text":147,"start_s":148,"end_s":149,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},21,"67327","Es una cultura establecida.",211.96,213.42,{"idx":97,"utterance_id":151,"speaker_name":25,"text":152,"start_s":153,"end_s":154,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},"67328","Casi 100 años.",213.48,214.2,{"idx":53,"utterance_id":156,"speaker_name":25,"text":157,"start_s":158,"end_s":159,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},"67329","Sí, casi 100 años, una cultura establecida de independencia periodística, independencia editorial.",214.46,221.48,{"idx":161,"utterance_id":162,"speaker_name":25,"text":163,"start_s":164,"end_s":165,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},24,"67330","En Brasil, no tenemos ese tipo de cosa.",222.14,224.54,{"idx":104,"utterance_id":167,"speaker_name":25,"text":168,"start_s":169,"end_s":170,"word_count":171,"indexable":14},"67331","Yendo de nuevo al extranjero, si tomas un ejemplo como el New York Times, o la revista The Economist, o la redacción de la BBC, las redacciones de la BBC, la experiencia periodística tiene mucho en común.",225.32,240.04,37,{"idx":34,"utterance_id":173,"speaker_name":25,"text":174,"start_s":175,"end_s":176,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},"67332","Muy inusual.",240.66,241.22,{"idx":178,"utterance_id":179,"speaker_name":25,"text":174,"start_s":180,"end_s":181,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},27,"67333",241.38,242.34,{"idx":28,"utterance_id":183,"speaker_name":25,"text":184,"start_s":185,"end_s":186,"word_count":187,"indexable":14},"67334","Claro que hay rasgos distintos, pero la profesión de periodista, en esos casos, transcurre en una organización u otra, sea pública o privada, siguiendo ese patrón del que hablo: BBC, The Economist o New York Times.",243.66,259.7,36,{"idx":189,"utterance_id":190,"speaker_name":25,"text":191,"start_s":192,"end_s":193,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},29,"67335","transcurre más o menos según el mismo diapasón.",260.56,264.32,{"idx":195,"utterance_id":196,"speaker_name":25,"text":197,"start_s":198,"end_s":199,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},30,"67336","En Brasil, no tenemos una empresa pública de comunicación realmente independiente.",264.84,270.94,{"idx":201,"utterance_id":202,"speaker_name":25,"text":203,"start_s":204,"end_s":205,"word_count":161,"indexable":14},31,"67337","Entonces, son muy dependientes, porque no son independientes, dependen del humor de los mandatarios, del humor de quienes ocupan cargos en el ejecutivo.",271.26,282.4,{"idx":124,"utterance_id":207,"speaker_name":25,"text":208,"start_s":209,"end_s":210,"word_count":195,"indexable":14},"67338","Si son más cultos, si están mejor preparados, más civilizados, en el mejor sentido de la palabra, tenemos un ambiente más propicio para un contenido más inteligente, más crítico.",282.54,294.18,{"idx":212,"utterance_id":213,"speaker_name":25,"text":214,"start_s":215,"end_s":216,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},33,"67339","Si no lo son, atropellan, como un tanque de guerra, cualquier principio que orienta la profesión de periodista.",294.26,303.88,{"idx":85,"utterance_id":218,"speaker_name":25,"text":219,"start_s":220,"end_s":221,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},"67340","Por otro lado, en la iniciativa privada, tampoco tenemos redacciones independientes.",304.2,308.94,{"idx":223,"utterance_id":224,"speaker_name":25,"text":225,"start_s":226,"end_s":227,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},35,"67341","Son poquísimas las redacciones que podemos decir, en el mercado brasileño, que son técnicamente independientes.",309.02,315.98,{"idx":187,"utterance_id":229,"speaker_name":25,"text":230,"start_s":231,"end_s":232,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},"67342","Técnicamente independientes.",316.56,318.2,{"idx":171,"utterance_id":234,"speaker_name":25,"text":235,"start_s":236,"end_s":237,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},"67343","Son poquísimas.",318.5,319.38,{"idx":239,"utterance_id":240,"speaker_name":25,"text":241,"start_s":242,"end_s":243,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},38,"67344","¿Qué es técnicamente independiente?",319.54,321.12,{"idx":245,"utterance_id":246,"speaker_name":25,"text":247,"start_s":248,"end_s":249,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},39,"67345","Son empresas que generan recursos suficientes para financiar una operación periodística autónoma.",321.7,329.54,{"idx":13,"utterance_id":251,"speaker_name":25,"text":252,"start_s":253,"end_s":254,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},"67346","Y empresas dirigidas por personas que tienen claridad de que, al producir contenido responsable, serio, atractivo, interesante, este genera más recursos, genera más ganancias.",330.56,342.26,{"idx":256,"utterance_id":257,"speaker_name":25,"text":258,"start_s":259,"end_s":260,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},41,"67347","para su negocio y las cosas van bien.",342.58,344.14,{"idx":262,"utterance_id":263,"speaker_name":25,"text":264,"start_s":265,"end_s":266,"word_count":34,"indexable":14},42,"67348","Tenemos pocas empresas periodísticas en Brasil que, por ejemplo, no dependan de una porción considerable de los ingresos publicitarios provenientes de fondos públicos, del gobierno como anunciante.",344.68,355.22,{"idx":268,"utterance_id":269,"speaker_name":25,"text":270,"start_s":271,"end_s":272,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},43,"67349","¿Entonces, qué son?",355.54,356.64,{"idx":274,"utterance_id":275,"speaker_name":25,"text":276,"start_s":277,"end_s":278,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},44,"67350","Cinco, seis redacciones.",356.9,358.76,{"idx":280,"utterance_id":281,"speaker_name":25,"text":282,"start_s":283,"end_s":284,"word_count":138,"indexable":14},45,"67351","Estoy hablando de Folha de São Paulo, estoy hablando de O Estado de São Paulo, O Globo, las redacciones.",359.2,365.3,{"idx":286,"utterance_id":287,"speaker_name":25,"text":288,"start_s":289,"end_s":290,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},46,"67352","de grandes emisoras, periódicos regionales importantes, como Zero Hora, en Rio Grande do Sul, pero son pocos.",365.78,373.66,{"idx":292,"utterance_id":293,"speaker_name":25,"text":294,"start_s":295,"end_s":296,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},47,"67353","La inmensa mayoría de las redacciones brasileñas dependen, para empezar, del Estado anunciante.",374.28,381.14,{"idx":117,"utterance_id":298,"speaker_name":25,"text":299,"start_s":300,"end_s":301,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},"67354","El Estado es uno de los mayores anunciantes en Brasil.",381.66,383.94,{"idx":303,"utterance_id":304,"speaker_name":25,"text":305,"start_s":306,"end_s":307,"word_count":145,"indexable":14},49,"67355","Entonces, si al alcalde no le gustó y le cuenta algo al gobernador, ya hay una quiebra de ingresos en ese mes.",384.64,393.02,{"idx":309,"utterance_id":310,"speaker_name":25,"text":311,"start_s":312,"end_s":313,"word_count":138,"indexable":14},50,"67356","en esa pequeña emisora de radio, en ese pequeño periódico, y el tipo no logra pagar el sueldo a fin de mes.",393.42,399.34,{"idx":143,"utterance_id":315,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":316,"start_s":317,"end_s":318,"word_count":112,"indexable":14},"67357","Me parece completamente natural que el dueño de un medio de comunicación tenga sus ideas.",400.08,405.02,{"idx":320,"utterance_id":321,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":322,"start_s":323,"end_s":324,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},52,"67358","Y por eso las expresa, en general, en editoriales.",405.96,410.46,{"idx":326,"utterance_id":327,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":328,"start_s":329,"end_s":330,"word_count":161,"indexable":14},53,"67359","Allí dice lo que piensa respecto a un determinado hecho, una determinada propuesta, una determinada acción gubernamental o de una empresa.",410.6,420.18,{"idx":332,"utterance_id":333,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":334,"start_s":335,"end_s":336,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},54,"67360","En fin, tiene un espacio.",420.7,422.3,{"idx":338,"utterance_id":339,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":340,"start_s":341,"end_s":342,"word_count":112,"indexable":14},55,"67361","para expresar la opinión del periódico, por lo tanto, de los propietarios del periódico o del mando del periódico.",423.48,428.8,{"idx":344,"utterance_id":345,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":346,"start_s":347,"end_s":348,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},56,"67362","Pero ¿hasta qué punto crees que esa opinión en Brasil, de alguna manera, termina reflejándose en las crónicas?",429.64,438.1,{"idx":350,"utterance_id":351,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":352,"start_s":353,"end_s":354,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},57,"67363","Es decir, ¿hasta qué punto no existe aún, incluso en empresas que tienen un mayor madurez económica, todavía no hay una madurez política?",438.34,452.04,{"idx":356,"utterance_id":357,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":358,"start_s":359,"end_s":360,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},58,"67364","que consiga respetar esa separación con claridad.",452.68,456.36,{"idx":362,"utterance_id":363,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":364,"start_s":365,"end_s":366,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},59,"67365","Pensamos así, pero los hechos son esos.",457.46,460.36,{"idx":368,"utterance_id":369,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":370,"start_s":371,"end_s":372,"word_count":145,"indexable":14},60,"67366","Y los hechos fueron investigados con toda imparcialidad, se respetó el derecho del lector a conocerlos en toda su integridad.",461.04,471.4,{"idx":374,"utterance_id":375,"speaker_name":25,"text":376,"start_s":377,"end_s":378,"word_count":132,"indexable":14},61,"67367","Lo que dices es posible esperar y es posible desear, y como ciudadano es incluso posible exigirlo.",471.54,479.16,{"idx":380,"utterance_id":381,"speaker_name":25,"text":382,"start_s":383,"end_s":384,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},62,"67368","Haría algunas anotaciones.",480.06,481.46,{"idx":386,"utterance_id":387,"speaker_name":25,"text":388,"start_s":389,"end_s":390,"word_count":112,"indexable":14},63,"67369","La opinión que sale en el editorial de un periódico no es necesariamente la opinión del dueño.",481.9,486.92,{"idx":392,"utterance_id":393,"speaker_name":25,"text":394,"start_s":395,"end_s":396,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},64,"67370","Eso es difícil de explicar.",487.62,489.86,{"idx":398,"utterance_id":399,"speaker_name":25,"text":400,"start_s":401,"end_s":402,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},65,"67371","La opinión que sale en el editorial de un periódico, pensemos en el Estadão, por ejemplo.",491.32,495.42,{"idx":404,"utterance_id":405,"speaker_name":25,"text":406,"start_s":407,"end_s":408,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},66,"67372","Es la opinión proveniente de una tradición de más de 150 años.",496.02,500.6,{"idx":410,"utterance_id":411,"speaker_name":25,"text":412,"start_s":413,"end_s":414,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},67,"67373","El Estadão es de la segunda mitad del siglo XIX.",500.78,505.02,{"idx":416,"utterance_id":417,"speaker_name":25,"text":418,"start_s":419,"end_s":420,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},68,"67374","Son algunas décadas, ¿está bien?",506.16,508.24,{"idx":422,"utterance_id":423,"speaker_name":25,"text":424,"start_s":425,"end_s":426,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},69,"67375","Más de un siglo.",508.28,508.92,{"idx":428,"utterance_id":429,"speaker_name":25,"text":430,"start_s":431,"end_s":432,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},70,"67376","¿Quién es el dueño del Estadão?",510.34,511.88,{"idx":434,"utterance_id":435,"speaker_name":25,"text":436,"start_s":437,"end_s":438,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},71,"67377","El dueño del Estadão es una familia.",512.08,513.5,{"idx":440,"utterance_id":441,"speaker_name":25,"text":442,"start_s":443,"end_s":444,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},72,"67378","Son muchas personas.",515.64,516.98,{"idx":446,"utterance_id":447,"speaker_name":25,"text":448,"start_s":449,"end_s":450,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},73,"67379","La redacción encargada de la elaboración de los editoriales...",518.38,522.56,{"idx":452,"utterance_id":453,"speaker_name":25,"text":454,"start_s":455,"end_s":456,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},74,"67380","Es un colectivo.",523.14,523.84,{"idx":458,"utterance_id":459,"speaker_name":25,"text":460,"start_s":461,"end_s":462,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},75,"67381","Es un grupo con una coordinación.",524.36,527,{"idx":464,"utterance_id":465,"speaker_name":25,"text":466,"start_s":467,"end_s":468,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},76,"67382","No consultan al dueño.",527.16,529.66,{"idx":470,"utterance_id":471,"speaker_name":25,"text":472,"start_s":473,"end_s":474,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},77,"67383","¿Quién es el dueño de Economist?",530.04,531.8,{"idx":476,"utterance_id":477,"speaker_name":25,"text":478,"start_s":479,"end_s":480,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},78,"67384","La gente no sabe, son empresas las dueñas de Economist.",532.74,535.8,{"idx":482,"utterance_id":483,"speaker_name":25,"text":484,"start_s":485,"end_s":486,"word_count":124,"indexable":14},79,"67385","Pero Economist tiene un sistema de gobernanza que da al editor en jefe, a la máxima autoridad editorial dentro de la revista, una revista en la que todos los artículos son opinativos.",535.86,547.58,{"idx":488,"utterance_id":489,"speaker_name":25,"text":490,"start_s":491,"end_s":492,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},80,"67386","Todos los artículos son opinativos.",547.98,549.4,{"idx":494,"utterance_id":495,"speaker_name":25,"text":496,"start_s":497,"end_s":498,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},81,"67387","Le otorga autonomía a esa persona, pero esa autonomía no es un capricho del individuo.",549.78,555.72,{"idx":500,"utterance_id":501,"speaker_name":25,"text":502,"start_s":503,"end_s":504,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},82,"67388","También es otra tradición secular de defensa de un modelo de liberalismo.",556.1,561.9,{"idx":506,"utterance_id":507,"speaker_name":25,"text":508,"start_s":509,"end_s":510,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},83,"67389","Un liberalismo que es muy radical en la defensa del liberalismo en las costumbres también.",562.92,570.14,{"idx":512,"utterance_id":513,"speaker_name":25,"text":514,"start_s":515,"end_s":516,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},84,"67390","En las costumbres.",571.1,572.02,{"idx":518,"utterance_id":519,"speaker_name":25,"text":520,"start_s":521,"end_s":522,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},85,"67391","Eso se trata de la legalización de drogas, aborto, matrimonio gay.",573.26,578.5,{"idx":524,"utterance_id":525,"speaker_name":25,"text":526,"start_s":527,"end_s":528,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},86,"67392","Y el editor decide con, yo diría en Economist, con total autonomía.",579.28,585.18,{"idx":530,"utterance_id":531,"speaker_name":25,"text":532,"start_s":533,"end_s":534,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},87,"67393","Pero tiene reglas que provienen de la tradición y de la cultura de esa publicación.",585.5,590.46,{"idx":536,"utterance_id":537,"speaker_name":25,"text":538,"start_s":539,"end_s":540,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},88,"67394","Eso es muy importante.",591.42,592.56,{"idx":542,"utterance_id":543,"speaker_name":25,"text":544,"start_s":545,"end_s":546,"word_count":112,"indexable":14},89,"67395","entender, que no es el dueño que llega y va diciendo lo que va a hacer.",592.62,597.1,{"idx":548,"utterance_id":549,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":550,"start_s":551,"end_s":552,"word_count":112,"indexable":14},90,"67396","Pero esto vale para una empresa familiar, por ejemplo, como Rede Globo, tiene tres dueños.",597.14,601.76,{"idx":554,"utterance_id":555,"speaker_name":25,"text":556,"start_s":557,"end_s":558,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},91,"67397","Es diferente, es diferente.",601.92,603.52,{"idx":560,"utterance_id":561,"speaker_name":25,"text":562,"start_s":563,"end_s":564,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},92,"67398","Y entonces, ¿cómo funciona?",603.58,604.48,{"idx":566,"utterance_id":567,"speaker_name":25,"text":568,"start_s":569,"end_s":570,"word_count":223,"indexable":14},93,"67399","La tradición de Globo, mientras Roberto Marinho era el comandante, hay registros publicados, sabidos, no estoy aquí diciendo... nada que no sea público, había una interferencia directa del dueño, Roberto Marinho, en las coberturas.",606.2,631.12,{"idx":572,"utterance_id":573,"speaker_name":25,"text":574,"start_s":575,"end_s":576,"word_count":201,"indexable":14},94,"67400","Me gusta recordar una declaración de Roberto Marinho, que considero uno de los hombres de la comunicación más talentosos del siglo XX, tal vez el más brillante de Brasil en el siglo XX.",631.82,643.48,{"idx":578,"utterance_id":579,"speaker_name":25,"text":580,"start_s":581,"end_s":582,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},95,"67401","No hay aquí ninguna restricción personal contra él.",644.34,647.52,{"idx":584,"utterance_id":585,"speaker_name":25,"text":586,"start_s":587,"end_s":588,"word_count":112,"indexable":14},96,"67402","Pero él interfería y comandaba de forma asertiva lo que iba a ser publicado o no.",647.84,656.8,{"idx":590,"utterance_id":591,"speaker_name":25,"text":592,"start_s":593,"end_s":594,"word_count":239,"indexable":14},97,"67403","Y hay una entrevista suya publicada en Jornal da Tarde en la que dice, con todas las letras, sí, nosotros promovimos la elección de Collor y teníamos razones para esperar que fuera mejor de lo que fue, etc.",657.3,670.3,{"idx":596,"utterance_id":597,"speaker_name":25,"text":598,"start_s":599,"end_s":600,"word_count":320,"indexable":14},98,"67404","A finales de los años 20, comienzos de los años 30, Roberto Marinho tiene más o menos unos 25 años, el padre ya había muerto, pero él aún no era la autoridad máxima en el periódico, se estaba preparando para ello, pero fue decisivo en involucrar al periódico en el apoyo a la Revolución de 30.",673.54,694.98,{"idx":602,"utterance_id":603,"speaker_name":25,"text":604,"start_s":605,"end_s":606,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},99,"67405","Y él apoya la Revolución de 30.",695.16,697.08,{"idx":608,"utterance_id":609,"speaker_name":25,"text":610,"start_s":611,"end_s":612,"word_count":187,"indexable":14},100,"67406","Esto es importante recordar también porque... Roberto Marinho es un hombre que proviene de una tradición que atraviesa todo el siglo XX en la que no existía simplemente esa idea de prensa independiente, profesional, objetiva.",697.46,712.54,{"idx":614,"utterance_id":615,"speaker_name":25,"text":616,"start_s":617,"end_s":618,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},101,"67407","Eso se fue construyendo después, a lo largo del siglo XX.",712.88,716.7,{"idx":620,"utterance_id":621,"speaker_name":25,"text":622,"start_s":623,"end_s":624,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},102,"67408","¿Cuál es el hito?",716.76,717.6,{"idx":626,"utterance_id":627,"speaker_name":25,"text":628,"start_s":629,"end_s":630,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},103,"67409","¿Puedes...?",717.64,719.4,{"idx":632,"utterance_id":633,"speaker_name":25,"text":634,"start_s":635,"end_s":636,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},104,"67410","Pero solo una cosa, para que no nos quedemos así.",719.86,722.94,{"idx":638,"utterance_id":639,"speaker_name":25,"text":640,"start_s":641,"end_s":642,"word_count":119,"indexable":14},105,"67411","Entonces, cuando decimos que Roberto Marinho... conducía con rienda corta el periodismo y lo dirigía.",724.06,731.28,{"idx":644,"utterance_id":645,"speaker_name":25,"text":646,"start_s":647,"end_s":648,"word_count":112,"indexable":14},106,"67412","También estamos hablando de una tradición, una tradición que tenía esos elementos personalistas del propietario.",732.18,740,{"idx":650,"utterance_id":651,"speaker_name":25,"text":652,"start_s":653,"end_s":654,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},107,"67413","La prensa era un vehículo político partidario para hacer política partidaria.",740.26,745.2,{"idx":656,"utterance_id":657,"speaker_name":25,"text":658,"start_s":659,"end_s":660,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},108,"67414","La prensa nace así.",745.64,746.76,{"idx":662,"utterance_id":663,"speaker_name":25,"text":664,"start_s":665,"end_s":666,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},109,"67415","Y en Brasil la profesionalización empieza quizás con el jornal O Estado de São Paulo.",747,751.76,{"idx":668,"utterance_id":669,"speaker_name":25,"text":670,"start_s":671,"end_s":672,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},110,"67416","El jornal O Estado de São Paulo es un periódico que nace republicano.",752.52,756.06,{"idx":674,"utterance_id":675,"speaker_name":25,"text":676,"start_s":677,"end_s":678,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},111,"67417","pero va migrando a los pueblos.",756.82,758.4,{"idx":680,"utterance_id":681,"speaker_name":25,"text":682,"start_s":683,"end_s":684,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},112,"67418","Inclusive Júlio Mesquita",758.5,761.34,{"idx":686,"utterance_id":687,"speaker_name":25,"text":688,"start_s":689,"end_s":690,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},113,"67419","era",762.18,762.4,{"idx":692,"utterance_id":693,"speaker_name":25,"text":694,"start_s":695,"end_s":696,"word_count":117,"indexable":14},114,"67420","un militante republicano, fue elegido diputado, pero se fue apartando de la política y se dedicó cada vez más al periódico, convirtiendo el periódico en un ambiente en el que había personas monárquicas y personas republicanas y de simpatía comunista, como ocurrió con Euclides da Cunha, que escribía allí,",762.46,781.94,{"idx":698,"utterance_id":699,"speaker_name":25,"text":700,"start_s":701,"end_s":701,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},115,"67421","y",782.76,{"idx":703,"utterance_id":704,"speaker_name":25,"text":705,"start_s":706,"end_s":707,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},116,"67422","va descubriendo... lo que puede ser un periodismo de mercado.",783.9,787.7,{"idx":709,"utterance_id":710,"speaker_name":25,"text":711,"start_s":712,"end_s":713,"word_count":34,"indexable":14},117,"67423","A finales de los años 20, el Estadão era un periódico relativamente independiente en relación con el Partido Republicano, relativamente plural, profesionalizado y muy rico, con altas facturaciones.",787.92,801.86,{"idx":715,"utterance_id":716,"speaker_name":25,"text":717,"start_s":718,"end_s":719,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},118,"67424","La facturación del jornal Estado de São Paulo era mayor que los ingresos de 16 o 17 de los estados brasileños en la época.",802.58,811.38,{"idx":721,"utterance_id":722,"speaker_name":25,"text":723,"start_s":724,"end_s":725,"word_count":104,"indexable":14},119,"67425","Era una locura, era un hombre muy rico y muy poderoso, haciendo periodismo, para ese tiempo, profesional, plural, con una opinión muy fuerte e independiente.",812.02,823.16,{"idx":727,"utterance_id":728,"speaker_name":25,"text":729,"start_s":730,"end_s":731,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},120,"67426","Y, en ese tiempo, él dirigía los editoriales.",823.4,825.84,{"idx":733,"utterance_id":734,"speaker_name":25,"text":735,"start_s":736,"end_s":737,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},121,"67427","Con el tiempo, el Estadão separó las cosas.",826.8,829.3,{"idx":739,"utterance_id":740,"speaker_name":25,"text":741,"start_s":742,"end_s":743,"word_count":99,"indexable":14},122,"67428","El mando de los editoriales es uno y el mando de la reportería es otra dirección.",829.38,834.12,{"idx":745,"utterance_id":746,"speaker_name":25,"text":747,"start_s":748,"end_s":749,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},123,"67429","El periódico dividió las dos direcciones.",834.3,836.04,{"idx":751,"utterance_id":752,"speaker_name":25,"text":753,"start_s":754,"end_s":755,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},124,"67430","Ahora, los editoriales influyen en la redacción, pero mucho.",836.4,841.1,{"idx":757,"utterance_id":758,"speaker_name":25,"text":759,"start_s":760,"end_s":761,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},125,"67431","Influyen, no deberían influir, pero influyen.",841.96,845.02,{"idx":763,"utterance_id":764,"speaker_name":25,"text":765,"start_s":766,"end_s":767,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},126,"67432","¿Por qué?",845.08,845.38,{"idx":769,"utterance_id":770,"speaker_name":25,"text":771,"start_s":772,"end_s":773,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},127,"67433","También porque un joven reportero leyó lo que dice el editorial, quiere quedar bien, no sé qué, él es, sin saber, influenciado por eso.",845.74,855.42,{"idx":775,"utterance_id":776,"speaker_name":25,"text":777,"start_s":778,"end_s":779,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},128,"67434","Eso no es bueno, pero sucede.",855.56,857.7,{"idx":781,"utterance_id":782,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":783,"start_s":784,"end_s":785,"word_count":171,"indexable":14},129,"67435","La regulación económica, por ejemplo, como existe en algunos estados americanos o en algunos países europeos, de que la misma familia no sea propietaria en una localidad de la radio, del periódico de mayor circulación y de la TV de mayor audiencia.",859.12,875.7,{"idx":787,"utterance_id":788,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":789,"start_s":790,"end_s":791,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},130,"67436","¿Eso se confunde con censura?",876.88,879.34,{"idx":793,"utterance_id":794,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":795,"start_s":796,"end_s":797,"word_count":245,"indexable":14},131,"67437","¿Es posible imaginar una forma de regulación que, para un periodista de su calidad y de la calidad de las personas que se forman en las buenas facultades de periodismo, sea comprensible que, en realidad, se está defendiendo la democracia?",879.6,894.96,{"idx":799,"utterance_id":800,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":801,"start_s":802,"end_s":803,"word_count":161,"indexable":14},132,"67438","¿O ves riesgo de que una regulación en Brasil pueda... acarrear cualquier desenlace que sea contraproducente, que no sea beneficioso para la democracia?",895.24,907.96,{"idx":805,"utterance_id":806,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":807,"start_s":808,"end_s":809,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},133,"67439","¿Cómo ves esta cuestión de la regulación?",908.04,910.22,{"idx":811,"utterance_id":812,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":813,"start_s":814,"end_s":815,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},134,"67440","Siempre puntualizando que estoy hablando de la regulación económica, evidentemente.",910.6,913.76,{"idx":817,"utterance_id":818,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":819,"start_s":820,"end_s":821,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},135,"67441","De la no concentración en pocas manos, de pocos medios de comunicación.",914.14,918.82,{"idx":823,"utterance_id":824,"speaker_name":25,"text":825,"start_s":826,"end_s":827,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},136,"67442","No, yo, Fernando, solo veo la regulación como un antídoto contra la censura.",919.14,929.7,{"idx":829,"utterance_id":830,"speaker_name":25,"text":831,"start_s":832,"end_s":833,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},137,"67443","No es que la regulación acarree censura.",930.6,932.94,{"idx":835,"utterance_id":836,"speaker_name":25,"text":837,"start_s":838,"end_s":839,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},138,"67444","La regulación democrática inhibe la censura, protege la libertad, en el plano material y en el plano formal.",933.64,941.64,{"idx":841,"utterance_id":842,"speaker_name":25,"text":843,"start_s":844,"end_s":845,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},139,"67445","Mira qué cosa, la regulación va mucho más allá de la regulación... de mercado.",942.34,949.2,{"idx":847,"utterance_id":848,"speaker_name":25,"text":849,"start_s":850,"end_s":851,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},140,"67446","esa necesita existir.",949.38,950.5,{"idx":853,"utterance_id":854,"speaker_name":25,"text":855,"start_s":856,"end_s":857,"word_count":338,"indexable":14},141,"67447","En Estados Unidos existe por la FCC, la FCC, que la Comisión Federal de Comunicaciones fue instituida por el Congreso en los años 30 del siglo XX. desde aquel tiempo y surge con dos principios o para velar por dos valores: uno es la pluralidad de voces y el otro es la competencia en el mercado.",950.62,975.44,{"idx":859,"utterance_id":860,"speaker_name":25,"text":861,"start_s":862,"end_s":863,"word_count":132,"indexable":14},142,"67448","por tanto es una legislación antitrust, la FCC es una agencia reguladora típica, es una regulación antitrust, antimonopolista, anticoncentración.",975.74,987.28,{"idx":865,"utterance_id":866,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":867,"start_s":868,"end_s":869,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},143,"67449","Es decir, liberal en el sentido más clásico.",988.42,990.66,{"idx":871,"utterance_id":872,"speaker_name":25,"text":873,"start_s":874,"end_s":875,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},144,"67450","Liberal clásico, que no hace daño a nadie.",990.7,994.48,{"idx":877,"utterance_id":878,"speaker_name":25,"text":879,"start_s":880,"end_s":881,"word_count":201,"indexable":14},145,"67451","Ella, al defender un mercado que no sea monopolista ni oligopolista, defiende la competencia y con ello también promueve una inclinación del debate público hacia la diversidad, la pluralidad.",995.54,1013.34,{"idx":883,"utterance_id":884,"speaker_name":25,"text":885,"start_s":886,"end_s":887,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},146,"67452","Son los dos valores.",1013.52,1014.64,{"idx":889,"utterance_id":890,"speaker_name":25,"text":891,"start_s":892,"end_s":893,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},147,"67453","Por eso ella combate la propiedad cruzada de los medios de comunicación.",1015.14,1019.02,{"idx":895,"utterance_id":896,"speaker_name":25,"text":897,"start_s":898,"end_s":899,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},148,"67454","¿Qué es la propiedad cruzada de los medios de comunicación?",1019.06,1021.28,{"idx":901,"utterance_id":902,"speaker_name":25,"text":903,"start_s":904,"end_s":905,"word_count":132,"indexable":14},149,"67455","El tipo es dueño del periódico más grande, de la emisora de radio más grande, de la emisora de TV más grande, del más grande...",1022.68,1030.04,{"idx":907,"utterance_id":908,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":909,"start_s":910,"end_s":911,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},150,"67456","De un estado, por ejemplo.",1030.38,1031.4,{"idx":913,"utterance_id":914,"speaker_name":25,"text":915,"start_s":916,"end_s":917,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},151,"67457","De una ciudad.",1032.08,1032.96,{"idx":919,"utterance_id":920,"speaker_name":25,"text":921,"start_s":922,"end_s":923,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},152,"67458","En una ciudad.",1033.22,1033.86,{"idx":925,"utterance_id":926,"speaker_name":25,"text":927,"start_s":928,"end_s":929,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},153,"67459","Incluso en una ciudad.",1034.04,1034.74,{"idx":931,"utterance_id":932,"speaker_name":25,"text":921,"start_s":933,"end_s":934,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},154,"67460",1034.78,1035.52,{"idx":936,"utterance_id":937,"speaker_name":25,"text":938,"start_s":939,"end_s":940,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},155,"67461","Entonces, eso significa claramente que una única empresa puede reunir condiciones para controlar el debate público en ese lugar.",1035.98,1045.16,{"idx":942,"utterance_id":943,"speaker_name":25,"text":944,"start_s":945,"end_s":946,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},156,"67462","Imaginemos un mundo sin internet también.",1045.44,1047.68,{"idx":948,"utterance_id":949,"speaker_name":25,"text":950,"start_s":951,"end_s":952,"word_count":178,"indexable":14},157,"67463","Entonces, en ese sentido, la regulación americana, cuyos principios aparecen también en la Ofcom británica, aparecen en la legislación francesa, aparecen en Alemania, esos principios son obvios, son autoevidentes.",1048.02,1064.34,{"idx":954,"utterance_id":955,"speaker_name":25,"text":956,"start_s":957,"end_s":958,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},158,"67464","No solo no es censura, sino que inhibe la censura.",1065.94,1069.82,{"idx":960,"utterance_id":961,"speaker_name":25,"text":962,"start_s":963,"end_s":964,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},159,"67465","Inhibe la censura del Estado e inhibe la censura privada.",1070.3,1073.48,{"idx":966,"utterance_id":967,"speaker_name":25,"text":968,"start_s":969,"end_s":970,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},160,"67466","Existe censura privada.",1073.56,1075,{"idx":972,"utterance_id":973,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":974,"start_s":975,"end_s":976,"word_count":280,"indexable":14},161,"67467","¿Por qué crees, y hago esta pregunta de muy buena fe, por qué crees que cuando alguien toca ese tema, los propios periodistas de los grandes conglomerados son los primeros en acusar al proponente del debate de estar... haciendo lo contrario de eso?",1075.18,1096.32,{"idx":978,"utterance_id":979,"speaker_name":25,"text":980,"start_s":981,"end_s":982,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},162,"67468","Pero, por lo siguiente, hay motivos.",1096.4,1098.34,{"idx":984,"utterance_id":985,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":986,"start_s":987,"end_s":988,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},163,"67469","Por eso digo que la pregunta es de buena fe.",1100.18,1101.68,{"idx":990,"utterance_id":991,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":992,"start_s":993,"end_s":994,"word_count":239,"indexable":14},164,"67470","Pero me parece extraño que cuando hablas de esto, ya surgen las voces... ¿Cuál es el temor de decir, por ejemplo, vamos a tomar la legislación de los Estados Unidos y discutir en el Congreso Nacional si es aplicable al caso de Brasil?",1102.28,1116.32,{"idx":996,"utterance_id":997,"speaker_name":25,"text":998,"start_s":999,"end_s":1000,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},165,"67471","Pues sí, no lo entiendo.",1116.36,1118.94,{"idx":1002,"utterance_id":1003,"speaker_name":25,"text":1004,"start_s":1005,"end_s":1006,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},166,"67472","¿Cuál es?",1119,1119.38,{"idx":1008,"utterance_id":1009,"speaker_name":25,"text":1010,"start_s":1011,"end_s":1012,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},167,"67473","Así, hasta lo entiendo.",1119.84,1121.56,{"idx":1014,"utterance_id":1015,"speaker_name":25,"text":1016,"start_s":1017,"end_s":1018,"word_count":34,"indexable":14},168,"67474","Pero, así, es difícil mirar a los ojos a una persona, a veces un parlamentario, a veces un dueño de una emisora, o a veces un gran periodista.",1122.12,1131.14,{"idx":1020,"utterance_id":1021,"speaker_name":25,"text":1022,"start_s":1023,"end_s":1024,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},169,"67475","No es posible entender por qué ese debate no ocurrió.",1132.74,1137.52,{"idx":1026,"utterance_id":1027,"speaker_name":25,"text":1028,"start_s":1029,"end_s":1030,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},170,"67476","y beneficiaría a los más meritorios, a los grandes valores, a las figuras destacadas del mercado.",1137.94,1144.84,{"idx":1032,"utterance_id":1033,"speaker_name":25,"text":1034,"start_s":1035,"end_s":1036,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},171,"67477","Y también beneficiaría a la comunicación pública.",1145.42,1149.42,{"idx":1038,"utterance_id":1039,"speaker_name":25,"text":1040,"start_s":1041,"end_s":1042,"word_count":132,"indexable":14},172,"67478","Beneficiaría a la democracia, a la sociedad, porque la regulación también se encarga de reservar un espacio para las emisoras públicas.",1150.14,1157.64,{"idx":1044,"utterance_id":1045,"speaker_name":25,"text":1046,"start_s":1047,"end_s":1048,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},173,"67479","Las emisoras públicas son esenciales en la democracia.",1158.14,1160.82,{"idx":1050,"utterance_id":1051,"speaker_name":25,"text":1052,"start_s":1053,"end_s":1054,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},174,"67480","No es que sean simplemente algo deseable, que está bien cuando... No, son esenciales en la democracia.",1161.24,1167.9,{"idx":1056,"utterance_id":1057,"speaker_name":25,"text":1058,"start_s":1059,"end_s":1060,"word_count":99,"indexable":14},175,"67481","Tanto es así que existen las radios de la NPR en los Estados Unidos; me encanta el ejemplo americano.",1168.36,1173.9,{"idx":1062,"utterance_id":1063,"speaker_name":25,"text":1064,"start_s":1065,"end_s":1066,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},176,"67482","Porque no hay ninguna duda de que los Estados Unidos son efectivamente un país capitalista.",1174.52,1181.02,{"idx":1068,"utterance_id":1069,"speaker_name":25,"text":1070,"start_s":1071,"end_s":1072,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},177,"67483","Solo algunos locos que andan por ahí creen que Trump es comunista, pero pronto surgirá.",1181.42,1185.76,{"idx":1074,"utterance_id":1075,"speaker_name":25,"text":1076,"start_s":1077,"end_s":1078,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},178,"67484","Él no lo es. No hay riesgo de que alguien imagine que cuando hablas del ejemplo americano estás hablando de un ejemplo socialista.",1186,1193.86,{"idx":1080,"utterance_id":1081,"speaker_name":25,"text":1082,"start_s":1083,"end_s":1084,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},179,"67485","Allí la NPR hace un periodismo de alta relevancia, es National Public Radio, que aglutina unas 900 emisoras.",1194.3,1202.82,{"idx":1086,"utterance_id":1087,"speaker_name":25,"text":1088,"start_s":1089,"end_s":1090,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},180,"67486","El periodismo internacional de la NPR es de altísimo nivel.",1203.66,1207.24,{"idx":1092,"utterance_id":1093,"speaker_name":25,"text":1094,"start_s":1095,"end_s":1096,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},181,"67487","Emisoras públicas, que no hacen publicidad como las emisoras comerciales.",1208.5,1214.18,{"idx":1098,"utterance_id":1099,"speaker_name":25,"text":1100,"start_s":1101,"end_s":1102,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},182,"67488","Las emisoras de la PBS, que es el sistema público de broadcasting, tampoco son emisoras comerciales; son públicas.",1214.72,1225.28,{"idx":1104,"utterance_id":1105,"speaker_name":25,"text":1106,"start_s":1107,"end_s":1108,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},183,"67489","Tienen recursos públicos y reciben donaciones de los ciudadanos, hacen periodismo de excelente nivel.",1225.76,1233.96,{"idx":1110,"utterance_id":1111,"speaker_name":25,"text":1112,"start_s":1113,"end_s":1114,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},184,"67490","Así que es bueno recordar eso, porque eso también es producto de la regulación.",1234.4,1238.54,{"idx":1116,"utterance_id":1117,"speaker_name":25,"text":1118,"start_s":1119,"end_s":1120,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},185,"67491","¿Por qué surgieron tres grandes cadenas de TV en los Estados Unidos?",1238.88,1241.36,{"idx":1122,"utterance_id":1123,"speaker_name":25,"text":1124,"start_s":1125,"end_s":1126,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},186,"67492","¿NBC, CBS y ABC?",1241.5,1243.4,{"idx":1128,"utterance_id":1129,"speaker_name":25,"text":1130,"start_s":1131,"end_s":1132,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},187,"67493","Porque la regulación determinó así.",1243.98,1245.86,{"idx":1134,"utterance_id":1135,"speaker_name":25,"text":1136,"start_s":1137,"end_s":1138,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},188,"67494","Era importante que la audiencia no fuera monopolio de ninguna.",1246.38,1249.46,{"idx":1140,"utterance_id":1141,"speaker_name":25,"text":1142,"start_s":1143,"end_s":1144,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},189,"67495","Era importante que existieran tres compitiendo entre sí.",1249.78,1253.52,{"idx":1146,"utterance_id":1147,"speaker_name":25,"text":1148,"start_s":1149,"end_s":1150,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},190,"67496","Eso fue obra de la regulación, no obra del mercado.",1253.82,1255.52,{"idx":1152,"utterance_id":1153,"speaker_name":25,"text":1154,"start_s":1155,"end_s":1156,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},191,"67497","De cierta manera, la ley moldeó el mercado.",1255.58,1257.26,{"idx":1158,"utterance_id":1159,"speaker_name":25,"text":1160,"start_s":1161,"end_s":1162,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},192,"67498","La ley indujo o programó el mercado.",1258.56,1264.16,{"idx":1164,"utterance_id":1165,"speaker_name":25,"text":1166,"start_s":1167,"end_s":1168,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},193,"67499","Y no es por eso que los Estados Unidos sean socialistas, ni que sea censura.",1264.6,1269.38,{"idx":1170,"utterance_id":1171,"speaker_name":25,"text":1172,"start_s":1173,"end_s":1174,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},194,"67500","Al contrario, la censura se vuelve mucho más difícil.",1269.9,1272.52,{"idx":1176,"utterance_id":1177,"speaker_name":25,"text":1178,"start_s":1179,"end_s":1180,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},195,"67501","Vamos a Argentina.",1274.28,1275.28,{"idx":1182,"utterance_id":1183,"speaker_name":25,"text":1184,"start_s":1185,"end_s":1186,"word_count":201,"indexable":14},196,"67502","Kirchner, el gobierno de los Kirchner, empezó a hablar de regulación y adoptaron la estrategia de hacer una regulación del sector cuando surgió una disputa entre el Clarim y el gobierno.",1275.8,1289.66,{"idx":1188,"utterance_id":1189,"speaker_name":25,"text":1190,"start_s":1191,"end_s":1192,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},197,"67503","Venezuela.",1291.5,1292.2,{"idx":1194,"utterance_id":1195,"speaker_name":25,"text":1196,"start_s":1197,"end_s":1198,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},198,"67504","No hace falta ir muy lejos: Venezuela.",1292.64,1294.08,{"idx":1200,"utterance_id":1201,"speaker_name":25,"text":1202,"start_s":1203,"end_s":1204,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},199,"67505","La legislación de Venezuela es contra el mercado y abre camino a la interferencia del gobierno.",1294.34,1301.46,{"idx":1206,"utterance_id":1207,"speaker_name":25,"text":1208,"start_s":1209,"end_s":1210,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},200,"67506","o del partido, o de las organizaciones, en el debate público.",1301.92,1306.46,{"idx":1212,"utterance_id":1213,"speaker_name":25,"text":1214,"start_s":1215,"end_s":1216,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},201,"67507","El ejemplo es pésimo también.",1306.78,1308.22,{"idx":1218,"utterance_id":1219,"speaker_name":25,"text":1220,"start_s":1221,"end_s":1222,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},202,"67508","Uruguay hizo una buena legislación.",1308.58,1310.38,{"idx":1224,"utterance_id":1225,"speaker_name":25,"text":1226,"start_s":1227,"end_s":1228,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},203,"67509","La legislación de Uruguay es muy interesante.",1311.28,1313.64,{"idx":1230,"utterance_id":1231,"speaker_name":25,"text":1232,"start_s":1233,"end_s":1234,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},204,"67510","¿Chile la tiene?",1313.7,1314.28,{"idx":1236,"utterance_id":1237,"speaker_name":25,"text":1238,"start_s":1239,"end_s":1240,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},205,"67511","Chile es diferente.",1315.14,1316.36,{"idx":1242,"utterance_id":1243,"speaker_name":25,"text":1244,"start_s":1245,"end_s":1246,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},206,"67512","Chile tiene una TV pública que solo vive de la publicidad.",1316.58,1319.64,{"idx":1248,"utterance_id":1249,"speaker_name":25,"text":1250,"start_s":1251,"end_s":1252,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},207,"67513","El Estado no pone ni un centavo.",1319.82,1321.3,{"idx":1254,"utterance_id":1255,"speaker_name":25,"text":1256,"start_s":1257,"end_s":1258,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},208,"67514","Estuve allí recientemente, en un seminario, estaban emitiendo Los 10 Mandamientos.",1321.64,1325.66,{"idx":1260,"utterance_id":1261,"speaker_name":25,"text":1262,"start_s":1263,"end_s":1264,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},209,"67515","según una amiga mía, gran periodista, los 20 mandamientos, la telenovela de Record.",1326.24,1330.48,{"idx":1266,"utterance_id":1267,"speaker_name":25,"text":1268,"start_s":1269,"end_s":1270,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},210,"67516","Y ya vamos por los 30 mandamientos.",1330.82,1332.52,{"idx":1272,"utterance_id":1273,"speaker_name":25,"text":1274,"start_s":1275,"end_s":1276,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},211,"67517","Estaban emitiendo eso, pasan contenidos orientados al mercado.",1333.2,1336.46,{"idx":1278,"utterance_id":1279,"speaker_name":25,"text":765,"start_s":1280,"end_s":1281,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},212,"67518",1336.54,1336.84,{"idx":1283,"utterance_id":1284,"speaker_name":25,"text":1285,"start_s":1286,"end_s":1287,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},213,"67519","Es una TV pública, porque es del Estado, pero para vivir necesita publicidad.",1337.06,1341.54,{"idx":1289,"utterance_id":1290,"speaker_name":25,"text":1291,"start_s":1292,"end_s":1293,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},214,"67520","¿Cuál es el efecto de eso?",1341.74,1342.62,{"idx":1295,"utterance_id":1296,"speaker_name":25,"text":1297,"start_s":1298,"end_s":1299,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},215,"67521","Se vuelve igual a una TV comercial.",1342.8,1344.54,{"idx":1301,"utterance_id":1302,"speaker_name":25,"text":1303,"start_s":1304,"end_s":1305,"word_count":99,"indexable":14},216,"67522","Porque necesita rendir cuentas al mercado, necesita tener pausas comerciales, necesita...",1345.54,1350.52,{"idx":1307,"utterance_id":1308,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1309,"start_s":1310,"end_s":1311,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},217,"67523","No es la propiedad lo que va a alterar la naturaleza de las cosas.",1350.66,1353.34,{"idx":1313,"utterance_id":1314,"speaker_name":25,"text":1315,"start_s":1316,"end_s":1317,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},218,"67524","Entonces, es del Estado, pero hace una TV comercial.",1353.42,1356.74,{"idx":1319,"utterance_id":1320,"speaker_name":25,"text":1321,"start_s":1322,"end_s":1323,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},219,"67525","Tiene los programas comerciales de TV más comunes, así que es hasta desconcertante.",1357.06,1361.58,{"idx":1325,"utterance_id":1326,"speaker_name":25,"text":1327,"start_s":1328,"end_s":1329,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},220,"67526","Pero Chile tiene una legislación que yo no destacaría como ejemplo.",1362.26,1366.56,{"idx":1331,"utterance_id":1332,"speaker_name":25,"text":1333,"start_s":1334,"end_s":1335,"word_count":119,"indexable":14},221,"67527","Y en Brasil... Tuvimos episodios muy desafortunados durante los gobiernos de Lula y Dilma, principalmente durante el gobierno de Lula.",1366.7,1374.84,{"idx":1337,"utterance_id":1338,"speaker_name":25,"text":1339,"start_s":1340,"end_s":1341,"word_count":145,"indexable":14},222,"67528","Lula hizo declaraciones diciendo que la prensa no podía ser un partido político y tal, y que iba a haber regulación.",1374.98,1382.2,{"idx":1343,"utterance_id":1344,"speaker_name":25,"text":1345,"start_s":1346,"end_s":1347,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},223,"67529","Bueno, una cosa no tiene nada que ver con la otra.",1382.42,1384.26,{"idx":1349,"utterance_id":1350,"speaker_name":25,"text":1351,"start_s":1352,"end_s":1353,"word_count":99,"indexable":14},224,"67530","No puedes blandir la regulación para decir que me vengaré de ustedes.",1384.3,1391.68,{"idx":1355,"utterance_id":1356,"speaker_name":25,"text":1357,"start_s":1358,"end_s":1359,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},225,"67531","Si la prensa fuera excelente, imparcial, lo cual es incluso imposible.",1392.22,1397.18,{"idx":1361,"utterance_id":1362,"speaker_name":25,"text":1363,"start_s":1364,"end_s":1365,"word_count":99,"indexable":14},226,"67532","Pero si fuera objetiva, excelente, campeona de independencia, necesitaríamos regulación.",1398.44,1405.2,{"idx":1367,"utterance_id":1368,"speaker_name":25,"text":1369,"start_s":1370,"end_s":1371,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},227,"67533","Y si la prensa es pésima, calumnia, publica falsedades, también necesitaremos regulación.",1405.84,1411.52,{"idx":1373,"utterance_id":1374,"speaker_name":25,"text":1375,"start_s":1376,"end_s":1377,"word_count":138,"indexable":14},228,"67534","El comportamiento de la prensa no tiene nada que ver con esa necesidad que es estructural del mercado en una sociedad democrática.",1412.08,1419.16,{"idx":1379,"utterance_id":1380,"speaker_name":25,"text":1381,"start_s":1382,"end_s":1383,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},229,"67535","Se necesita regulación.",1419.58,1420.82,{"idx":1385,"utterance_id":1386,"speaker_name":25,"text":1387,"start_s":1388,"end_s":1389,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},230,"67536","No es porque sea buena o mala.",1421.36,1422.7,{"idx":1391,"utterance_id":1392,"speaker_name":25,"text":1393,"start_s":1394,"end_s":1395,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},231,"67537","Pero los discursos de Lula a veces hicieron esa asociación.",1423.2,1426.28,{"idx":1397,"utterance_id":1398,"speaker_name":25,"text":1399,"start_s":1400,"end_s":1401,"word_count":112,"indexable":14},232,"67538","En ese sentido, creo que las personas que rechazan la regulación están mal informadas, en general.",1426.5,1432.84,{"idx":1403,"utterance_id":1404,"speaker_name":25,"text":1405,"start_s":1406,"end_s":1407,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},233,"67539","Pero en ese sentido, Lula estimuló con ciertos discursos ese temor.",1433.22,1438.7,{"idx":1409,"utterance_id":1410,"speaker_name":25,"text":1411,"start_s":1412,"end_s":1413,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},234,"67540","Y eso fue muy malo.",1439.2,1440.28,{"idx":1415,"utterance_id":1416,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1417,"start_s":1418,"end_s":1419,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},235,"67541","¿Qué pasa en Brasil para que las cosas sean tan contenidas?",1440.98,1444.72,{"idx":1421,"utterance_id":1422,"speaker_name":25,"text":1423,"start_s":1424,"end_s":1425,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},236,"67542","Mira, es...",1445.98,1446.98,{"idx":1427,"utterance_id":1428,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1429,"start_s":1430,"end_s":1431,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},237,"67543","Quizás eso incomode un poco a una persona que... ¿Te das cuenta?",1448.76,1452.72,{"idx":1433,"utterance_id":1434,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1435,"start_s":1436,"end_s":1437,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},238,"67544","Dices, ¿por qué no hay pluralidad?",1452.76,1454.92,{"idx":1439,"utterance_id":1440,"speaker_name":25,"text":1441,"start_s":1442,"end_s":1443,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},239,"67545","¿Qué ocurre?",1457.4,1458.16,{"idx":1445,"utterance_id":1446,"speaker_name":25,"text":1447,"start_s":1448,"end_s":1449,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},240,"67546","Son pocos los momentos.",1458.26,1459.36,{"idx":1451,"utterance_id":1452,"speaker_name":25,"text":1453,"start_s":1454,"end_s":1455,"word_count":138,"indexable":14},241,"67547","Si tomamos o Globo, a Folha y o Estadão, hay momentos en que tienen inclinaciones dispares, bastante centrífugas.",1459.4,1470,{"idx":1457,"utterance_id":1458,"speaker_name":25,"text":1459,"start_s":1460,"end_s":1461,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},242,"67548","Por ejemplo, el impeachment de Dilma.",1470.88,1474.44,{"idx":1463,"utterance_id":1464,"speaker_name":25,"text":1465,"start_s":1466,"end_s":1467,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},243,"67549","La Folha defendía la renuncia de Dilma y de Temer.",1475.44,1479.86,{"idx":1469,"utterance_id":1470,"speaker_name":25,"text":1471,"start_s":1472,"end_s":1473,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},244,"67550","El Estadão defendía una cosa y el Globo defendía otra diferente.",1481.1,1484.46,{"idx":1475,"utterance_id":1476,"speaker_name":25,"text":1477,"start_s":1478,"end_s":1479,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},245,"67551","Y sucede en momentos así.",1485.02,1486.56,{"idx":1481,"utterance_id":1482,"speaker_name":25,"text":1483,"start_s":1484,"end_s":1485,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},246,"67552","Pero la mayor parte del tiempo hay una especie de afinación.",1487.06,1491.64,{"idx":1487,"utterance_id":1488,"speaker_name":25,"text":1489,"start_s":1490,"end_s":1491,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},247,"67553","Alineamiento, así.",1491.68,1492.76,{"idx":1493,"utterance_id":1494,"speaker_name":25,"text":1495,"start_s":1496,"end_s":1497,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},248,"67554","No es un alineamiento porque no está concertado.",1493.14,1495.98,{"idx":1499,"utterance_id":1500,"speaker_name":25,"text":1501,"start_s":1502,"end_s":1503,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},249,"67555","No tienen una reunión en la que ellos... Es un proceso.",1496.22,1499.54,{"idx":1505,"utterance_id":1506,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1507,"start_s":1508,"end_s":1509,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},250,"67556","Es un proceso.",1499.58,1500.26,{"idx":1511,"utterance_id":1512,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1513,"start_s":1514,"end_s":1515,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},251,"67557","De aproximación, así.",1500.98,1502.2,{"idx":1517,"utterance_id":1518,"speaker_name":25,"text":1519,"start_s":1520,"end_s":1521,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},252,"67558","Es como si los fundamentos de los tres coincidieran.",1502.74,1507.84,{"idx":1523,"utterance_id":1524,"speaker_name":25,"text":1525,"start_s":1526,"end_s":1527,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},253,"67559","Se produce ese efecto de que no tenemos una diversidad como sería deseable.",1510.14,1517.58,{"idx":1529,"utterance_id":1530,"speaker_name":25,"text":1531,"start_s":1532,"end_s":1533,"word_count":145,"indexable":14},254,"67560","La diversidad de voces de la sociedad brasileña no se traduce en la diversidad de voces de la prensa que realmente importa en Brasil.",1517.9,1528.2,{"idx":1535,"utterance_id":1536,"speaker_name":25,"text":1537,"start_s":1538,"end_s":1539,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},255,"67561","Entonces, eso es un problema.",1528.78,1530.58,{"idx":1541,"utterance_id":1542,"speaker_name":25,"text":1543,"start_s":1544,"end_s":1545,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},256,"67562","En parte, eso viene de esa mentalidad censora.",1530.88,1535.18,{"idx":1547,"utterance_id":1548,"speaker_name":25,"text":1549,"start_s":1550,"end_s":1551,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},257,"67563","Quien lo dice, por cierto: la primera vez que leí que en Brasil la prensa nació después de la censura...",1536.06,1540.8,{"idx":1553,"utterance_id":1554,"speaker_name":25,"text":1555,"start_s":1556,"end_s":1557,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},258,"67564","es un libro del profesor Luiz Milanese, de la colección 'O que é Biblioteca'.",1540.88,1544.08,{"idx":1559,"utterance_id":1560,"speaker_name":25,"text":1561,"start_s":1562,"end_s":1563,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},259,"67565","Y él reconstituye la llegada de la familia real; aparecen las tres censuras que existían en Portugal y también aparece la prensa régia.",1544.48,1552,{"idx":1565,"utterance_id":1566,"speaker_name":25,"text":1567,"start_s":1568,"end_s":1569,"word_count":187,"indexable":14},260,"67566","Pero cuando sale el primer periódico publicado en Brasil, que es en junio de 1808, Gazeta do Rio de Janeiro, que era un diario oficial, las casas censoras o la censura... la Régia ya estaba funcionando allí.",1552.54,1566.14,{"idx":1571,"utterance_id":1572,"speaker_name":25,"text":1573,"start_s":1574,"end_s":1575,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},261,"67567","Es muy impresionante.",1567.56,1569.86,{"idx":1577,"utterance_id":1578,"speaker_name":25,"text":1579,"start_s":1580,"end_s":1581,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},262,"67568","Ya estaba funcionando.",1569.9,1572.28,{"idx":1583,"utterance_id":1584,"speaker_name":25,"text":1585,"start_s":1586,"end_s":1587,"word_count":112,"indexable":14},263,"67569","Y el primer periódico independiente de Brasil se publica en Londres, que es el Correio Brasiliense.",1572.92,1577.46,{"idx":1589,"utterance_id":1590,"speaker_name":25,"text":1591,"start_s":1592,"end_s":1593,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},264,"67570","Era un mensuario, un librito, hecho por hipólito José da Costa.",1577.52,1582.02,{"idx":1595,"utterance_id":1596,"speaker_name":25,"text":1597,"start_s":1598,"end_s":1599,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},265,"67571","Pero entraba en Brasil de contrabando.",1582.08,1585.3,{"idx":1601,"utterance_id":1602,"speaker_name":25,"text":1603,"start_s":1604,"end_s":1605,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},266,"67572","Circuló desde 1808 hasta 1822.",1585.86,1589.1,{"idx":1607,"utterance_id":1608,"speaker_name":25,"text":1609,"start_s":1610,"end_s":1611,"word_count":119,"indexable":14},267,"67573","Ese origen de la prensa brasileña... tampoco favorece, porque en Brasil el Estado implantó la prensa.",1589.92,1597.58,{"idx":1613,"utterance_id":1614,"speaker_name":25,"text":1615,"start_s":1616,"end_s":1617,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},268,"67574","En Brasil el Estado creó la sociedad civil.",1597.9,1600.72,{"idx":1619,"utterance_id":1620,"speaker_name":25,"text":1621,"start_s":1622,"end_s":1623,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},269,"67575","Usted estaba citando el ejemplo de los Estados Unidos.",1600.9,1602.84,{"idx":1625,"utterance_id":1626,"speaker_name":25,"text":1627,"start_s":1628,"end_s":1629,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},270,"67576","En los Estados Unidos el Estado surgió a partir de la prensa.",1603.14,1606.58,{"idx":1631,"utterance_id":1632,"speaker_name":25,"text":1633,"start_s":1634,"end_s":1635,"word_count":132,"indexable":14},271,"67577","Todas las determinaciones de la Federación Americana, la ratificación del pacto federativo, son producto de textos publicados en los periódicos,",1607.54,1621.22,{"idx":1637,"utterance_id":1638,"speaker_name":25,"text":1639,"start_s":1640,"end_s":1641,"word_count":34,"indexable":14},272,"67578","que son los Federalist Papers, que hoy son la piedra fundamental del pensamiento político de los Estados Unidos, escritos por tres grandes hombres que firmaban con seudónimos.",1621.74,1635.66,{"idx":1643,"utterance_id":1644,"speaker_name":25,"text":1645,"start_s":1646,"end_s":1647,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},273,"67579","Esos textos eran anónimos.",1635.94,1637.82,{"idx":1649,"utterance_id":1650,"speaker_name":25,"text":1651,"start_s":1652,"end_s":1653,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},274,"67580","Fueron publicados en los periódicos.",1638.46,1640.04,{"idx":1655,"utterance_id":1656,"speaker_name":25,"text":1657,"start_s":1658,"end_s":1659,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},275,"67581","Y en los periódicos, a través de los periódicos, convencieron a la gente que tenía actuación política.",1640.4,1647.38,{"idx":1661,"utterance_id":1662,"speaker_name":25,"text":1663,"start_s":1664,"end_s":1665,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},276,"67582","y así fue ratificado.",1647.7,1649.06,{"idx":1667,"utterance_id":1668,"speaker_name":25,"text":1669,"start_s":1670,"end_s":1671,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},277,"67583","El pacto federativo.",1649.34,1650.32,{"idx":1673,"utterance_id":1674,"speaker_name":25,"text":1675,"start_s":1676,"end_s":1677,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},278,"67584","El Estado nació de la prensa.",1650.66,1652.78,{"idx":1679,"utterance_id":1680,"speaker_name":25,"text":1681,"start_s":1682,"end_s":1683,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},279,"67585","Brasil es lo opuesto.",1653.1,1654.14,{"idx":1685,"utterance_id":1686,"speaker_name":25,"text":1687,"start_s":1688,"end_s":1689,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},280,"67586","Entonces todo eso debe ser tenido en cuenta.",1654.38,1656.18,{"idx":1691,"utterance_id":1692,"speaker_name":25,"text":1693,"start_s":1694,"end_s":1695,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},281,"67587","Pero hay un dato más que también debe tenerse en cuenta.",1656.5,1659.3,{"idx":1697,"utterance_id":1698,"speaker_name":25,"text":1699,"start_s":1700,"end_s":1701,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},282,"67588","Que yo diría es una desdicha de las voces divergentes de nuestro tiempo.",1659.96,1666.86,{"idx":1703,"utterance_id":1704,"speaker_name":25,"text":1705,"start_s":1706,"end_s":1707,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},283,"67589","En la dictadura tuvimos a Pasquim, que es un fenómeno, es algo maravilloso que haya existido.",1667.14,1673.22,{"idx":1709,"utterance_id":1710,"speaker_name":25,"text":1711,"start_s":1712,"end_s":1713,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},284,"67590","Que ahora cumple 50 años.",1673.76,1675.3,{"idx":1715,"utterance_id":1716,"speaker_name":25,"text":1717,"start_s":1718,"end_s":1719,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},285,"67591","En la dictadura, la prensa alternativa cumplía un papel importantísimo.",1678.14,1682.56,{"idx":1721,"utterance_id":1722,"speaker_name":25,"text":1723,"start_s":1724,"end_s":1725,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},286,"67592","Hoy tenemos poco.",1683.1,1684.44,{"idx":1727,"utterance_id":1728,"speaker_name":25,"text":1729,"start_s":1730,"end_s":1731,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},287,"67593","Y lo poco que tenemos reproduce los peores vicios de una prensa tradicional dominante.",1684.92,1693.34,{"idx":1733,"utterance_id":1734,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1735,"start_s":1736,"end_s":1737,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},288,"67594","Leandro, déjame hacerte una última pregunta.",1693.38,1695.8,{"idx":1739,"utterance_id":1740,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1741,"start_s":1742,"end_s":1743,"word_count":119,"indexable":14},289,"67595","Otávio Frias Filho, pocos meses antes de fallecer, publicó un artículo que me pareció valiente.",1697.24,1705.16,{"idx":1745,"utterance_id":1746,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1747,"start_s":1748,"end_s":1749,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},290,"67596","Ya sabía que estaba... enfermo, estaba luchando por su vida.",1705.96,1709.52,{"idx":1751,"utterance_id":1752,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1753,"start_s":1754,"end_s":1755,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},291,"67597","Si no me equivoco, el título del artículo, si no el título...",1709.96,1713.6,{"idx":1757,"utterance_id":1758,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1759,"start_s":1760,"end_s":1761,"word_count":60,"indexable":14},292,"67598","ya en la primera línea, decía 'Jornalismo, um mal necessário'.",1713.94,1718.02,{"idx":1763,"utterance_id":1764,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1765,"start_s":1766,"end_s":1767,"word_count":171,"indexable":14},293,"67599","Y en ese artículo recupera, de alguna manera, argumentos que van desde el propio Pulitzer hasta argumentos de la escuela de Frankfurt, Adorno y Horkheimer, hablando de los límites intrínsecos al periodismo, de sus límites esenciales.",1719.4,1736.72,{"idx":1769,"utterance_id":1770,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1771,"start_s":1772,"end_s":1773,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},294,"67600","¿Cuánto de eso es verdad para usted?",1738.68,1740.4,{"idx":1775,"utterance_id":1776,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1777,"start_s":1778,"end_s":1779,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},295,"67601","¿Cuánto de eso es superable para usted?",1740.46,1742.22,{"idx":1781,"utterance_id":1782,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1783,"start_s":1784,"end_s":1785,"word_count":48,"indexable":14},296,"67602","¿Qué es el buen periodismo?",1744.1,1745.52,{"idx":1787,"utterance_id":1788,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1789,"start_s":1790,"end_s":1791,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},297,"67603","¿Cuál es el límite del buen periodismo?",1746.78,1748.7,{"idx":1793,"utterance_id":1794,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1795,"start_s":1796,"end_s":1797,"word_count":36,"indexable":14},298,"67604","¿Hasta dónde llega?",1748.76,1749.52,{"idx":1799,"utterance_id":1800,"speaker_name":25,"text":1801,"start_s":1802,"end_s":1803,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},299,"67605","Bueno, usted una vez más me va a hacer una pregunta que me... No sé cómo salir de ella.",1749.8,1757.74,{"idx":1805,"utterance_id":1806,"speaker_name":25,"text":1807,"start_s":1808,"end_s":1809,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},300,"67606","Empezando por Otávio, una figura brillante que conocí, usted también lo conoció.",1757.82,1764.14,{"idx":1811,"utterance_id":1812,"speaker_name":25,"text":1813,"start_s":1814,"end_s":1815,"word_count":145,"indexable":14},301,"67607","Sabía dar... una puñaladita con mucha elegancia, mucha inteligencia, mucha ironía y tenía una visión, creo, muy aguda del periodismo.",1766.82,1783.1,{"idx":1817,"utterance_id":1818,"speaker_name":25,"text":1819,"start_s":1820,"end_s":1821,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},302,"67608","Aprendió mucho periodismo, sabía enseñar muy bien periodismo.",1783.64,1788.1,{"idx":1823,"utterance_id":1824,"speaker_name":25,"text":1825,"start_s":1826,"end_s":1827,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},303,"67609","Organicé un curso en el que Otávio dio una clase; fue brillante.",1788.14,1793.6,{"idx":1829,"utterance_id":1830,"speaker_name":25,"text":1831,"start_s":1832,"end_s":1833,"word_count":161,"indexable":14},304,"67610","La idea de que el periodismo es un mal necesario es una idea más o menos simple y no podemos perderla de vista.",1795.5,1802.64,{"idx":1835,"utterance_id":1836,"speaker_name":25,"text":1837,"start_s":1838,"end_s":1839,"word_count":80,"indexable":14},305,"67611","El periodismo no hace el bien, no ayuda a la gente.",1803.68,1809.52,{"idx":1841,"utterance_id":1842,"speaker_name":25,"text":1843,"start_s":1844,"end_s":1845,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},306,"67612","El periodismo existe para mostrar lo que no funciona, en ese sentido, para mostrar lo que subvirtió la expectativa legítima del ciudadano, de la sociedad.",1810.1,1821.54,{"idx":1847,"utterance_id":1848,"speaker_name":25,"text":1849,"start_s":1850,"end_s":1851,"word_count":119,"indexable":14},307,"67613","En ese sentido... expone indebidamente a personas, es desagradable, hace preguntas poco corteses, hace críticas feroces.",1822.22,1834.28,{"idx":1853,"utterance_id":1854,"speaker_name":25,"text":1855,"start_s":1856,"end_s":1857,"word_count":34,"indexable":14},308,"67614","Pero si no tuviéramos ese mal, no habría forma de que la democracia se equilibrara, no habría forma de que la sociedad supiera de las cosas que el poder quiere esconder.",1835.68,1849.06,{"idx":1859,"utterance_id":1860,"speaker_name":25,"text":1861,"start_s":1862,"end_s":1863,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},309,"67615","El periodismo sólo sirve para eso.",1849.18,1850.74,{"idx":1865,"utterance_id":1866,"speaker_name":25,"text":1867,"start_s":1868,"end_s":1869,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},310,"67616","para intentar perforar aquello que el poder quiere esconder.",1851.2,1853.86,{"idx":1871,"utterance_id":1872,"speaker_name":25,"text":1873,"start_s":1874,"end_s":1875,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},311,"67617","Sólo para eso.",1854.42,1855.06,{"idx":1877,"utterance_id":1878,"speaker_name":25,"text":1879,"start_s":1880,"end_s":1881,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},312,"67618","Entonces, es un mal y es necesario.",1855.8,1858.36,{"idx":1883,"utterance_id":1884,"speaker_name":25,"text":1885,"start_s":1886,"end_s":1887,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},313,"67619","Creo que eso no tiene superación, porque el gran periodista tiene dos características, que son dos vicios.",1859.06,1868.26,{"idx":1889,"utterance_id":1890,"speaker_name":25,"text":1891,"start_s":1892,"end_s":1893,"word_count":106,"indexable":14},314,"67620","Una: es agente de una curiosidad que es más fuerte que él.",1869.32,1875.28,{"idx":1895,"utterance_id":1896,"speaker_name":25,"text":1897,"start_s":1898,"end_s":1899,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},315,"67621","No lo puede evitar.",1875.32,1876.74,{"idx":1901,"utterance_id":1902,"speaker_name":25,"text":1903,"start_s":1904,"end_s":1905,"word_count":99,"indexable":14},316,"67622","El gran periodista, cuando ve pasar a un buen tema por al lado, se altera.",1877.38,1881.52,{"idx":1907,"utterance_id":1908,"speaker_name":25,"text":1909,"start_s":1910,"end_s":1911,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},317,"67623","Es como una camisa de fuerza.",1881.6,1883.08,{"idx":1913,"utterance_id":1914,"speaker_name":25,"text":1915,"start_s":1916,"end_s":1917,"word_count":41,"indexable":14},318,"67624","El sujeto no se aguanta.",1883.6,1884.96,{"idx":1919,"utterance_id":1920,"speaker_name":25,"text":1921,"start_s":1922,"end_s":1923,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},319,"67625","Y la otra cosa que hace a un gran periodista es una indiscreción esencial.",1885.64,1891.52,{"idx":1925,"utterance_id":1926,"speaker_name":25,"text":1927,"start_s":1928,"end_s":1929,"word_count":92,"indexable":14},320,"67626","Al periodista le encanta contar una historia que nadie sabía y hace cualquier cosa por ello.",1892.44,1897.46,{"idx":1931,"utterance_id":1932,"speaker_name":25,"text":1933,"start_s":1934,"end_s":1935,"word_count":62,"indexable":14},321,"67627","Es su gran placer, su realización.",1897.72,1900.1,{"idx":1937,"utterance_id":1938,"speaker_name":25,"text":1939,"start_s":1940,"end_s":1941,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},322,"67628","Son dos cosas malas, pero combinadas en un periodista producen un gran periodismo.",1901.08,1906.46,{"idx":1943,"utterance_id":1944,"speaker_name":25,"text":1945,"start_s":1946,"end_s":1947,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},323,"67629","Así como el sadismo es malo, pero en un cirujano que sabe disciplinarlo, lo transforma en una forma de salvar vidas.",1906.54,1915.52,{"idx":1949,"utterance_id":1950,"speaker_name":25,"text":1951,"start_s":1952,"end_s":1953,"word_count":119,"indexable":14},324,"67630","Porque es una persona a la que le gusta abrir el cuerpo del otro, tomar el corazón en la mano.",1915.76,1920,{"idx":1955,"utterance_id":1956,"speaker_name":25,"text":1957,"start_s":1958,"end_s":1959,"word_count":34,"indexable":14},325,"67631","Esa persona es sádica, pero disciplina eso para el bien de... 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