[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"transcript-5cf8afca-56db-4d9d-9ee1-9c7aaaa8e792-es":3,"transcript-poster-5cf8afca-56db-4d9d-9ee1-9c7aaaa8e792":1858,"footer-top-topics-es":1859,"footer-top-speakers-es":1902},{"falas":4,"lang":1846,"meta":1847},[5,15,22,29,36,42,48,54,60,66,72,78,84,90,96,102,107,114,120,126,132,137,143,149,155,160,166,172,178,184,190,196,201,206,212,218,224,230,236,243,249,255,261,267,273,279,285,291,297,303,308,314,320,326,332,338,344,350,356,362,368,373,379,385,391,397,403,409,415,421,427,433,439,445,451,457,463,469,475,481,487,493,499,505,511,517,523,529,535,541,547,553,559,565,571,577,583,589,595,601,607,613,618,624,630,636,642,648,654,660,666,672,678,684,690,696,702,708,714,720,726,732,738,744,750,756,762,768,774,780,786,792,798,804,810,816,822,828,834,840,846,852,858,864,870,876,882,888,894,900,906,912,918,924,930,936,942,948,954,960,966,972,978,984,990,996,1002,1008,1013,1019,1025,1031,1037,1043,1049,1055,1061,1067,1073,1079,1085,1091,1097,1103,1109,1114,1120,1126,1132,1138,1144,1150,1156,1162,1168,1174,1180,1186,1192,1198,1204,1210,1216,1222,1228,1234,1240,1246,1252,1258,1264,1270,1276,1282,1288,1294,1300,1306,1312,1318,1324,1330,1336,1342,1348,1354,1360,1366,1372,1378,1384,1390,1396,1402,1408,1414,1420,1426,1432,1438,1444,1450,1456,1462,1468,1474,1480,1486,1492,1498,1504,1510,1516,1522,1528,1534,1540,1546,1552,1558,1564,1570,1576,1582,1588,1594,1600,1606,1612,1618,1624,1630,1636,1642,1648,1654,1660,1666,1672,1678,1684,1690,1696,1702,1708,1714,1720,1726,1732,1738,1744,1750,1756,1762,1768,1774,1780,1786,1792,1798,1804,1810,1816,1822,1828,1834,1840],{"idx":6,"utterance_id":7,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":10,"start_s":11,"end_s":12,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},0,"86021","Fernando Haddad","fernando-haddad","Mi entrevistada de hoy es especialista en un tema recurrente en la historia brasileña desde el siglo XVI: el autoritarismo.",10.14,16.64,20,false,{"idx":16,"utterance_id":17,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":18,"start_s":19,"end_s":20,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},1,"86022","Ella es antropóloga, historiadora y profesora de la Facultad de Filosofía, Ciencias Humanas y Letras de la Universidade de São Paulo y de la Universidade de Princeton.",17.2,25.46,24,{"idx":23,"utterance_id":24,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":25,"start_s":26,"end_s":27,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},2,"86023","Buenas noches, mi amiga Lília Schwartz.",26.22,28.52,6,{"idx":30,"utterance_id":31,"speaker_name":32,"text":33,"start_s":34,"end_s":35,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},3,"86024","Desconhecido","Buenas noches.",28.94,29.46,{"idx":37,"utterance_id":38,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":39,"start_s":40,"end_s":41,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},4,"86025","¿Todo bien?",29.5,29.8,{"idx":43,"utterance_id":44,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":45,"start_s":46,"end_s":47,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},5,"86026","Todo bien.",30.08,30.48,{"idx":28,"utterance_id":49,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":50,"start_s":51,"end_s":52,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},"86027","Bueno, voy a empezar por, ante todo, agradecerte el obsequio, el libro sobre el autoritarismo brasileño.",31,38.96,15,{"idx":55,"utterance_id":56,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":57,"start_s":58,"end_s":59,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},7,"86028","Lília Schwartz, recién publicado, hace como tres meses.",39.36,42.92,{"idx":61,"utterance_id":62,"speaker_name":32,"text":63,"start_s":64,"end_s":65,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},8,"86029","Tres meses.",43.22,43.86,{"idx":67,"utterance_id":68,"speaker_name":32,"text":69,"start_s":70,"end_s":71,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},9,"86030","Tres meses y medio.",44.12,45.5,{"idx":73,"utterance_id":74,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":75,"start_s":76,"end_s":77,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},10,"86031","Y ya con más de 30 mil ejemplares.",45.54,49.32,{"idx":79,"utterance_id":80,"speaker_name":32,"text":81,"start_s":82,"end_s":83,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},11,"86032","Se nota que el tema está candente, ¿no?",49.66,51.64,{"idx":85,"utterance_id":86,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":87,"start_s":88,"end_s":89,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},12,"86033","Es decir, los brasileños están muy interesados en debatir Brasil, la historia de Brasil.",51.7,57.74,{"idx":91,"utterance_id":92,"speaker_name":32,"text":93,"start_s":94,"end_s":95,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},13,"86034","Quieren entender, ¿no?",57.78,58.44,{"idx":97,"utterance_id":98,"speaker_name":32,"text":99,"start_s":100,"end_s":101,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},14,"86035","Entender sus raíces, sus problemas.",58.48,60.86,{"idx":53,"utterance_id":103,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":104,"start_s":105,"end_s":106,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},"86036","Y aquí, tu libro, que leí con mucho interés.",61.12,65.8,{"idx":108,"utterance_id":109,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":110,"start_s":111,"end_s":112,"word_count":113,"indexable":14},16,"86037","Porque yo también estoy estudiando Brasil, creo que todo brasileño está más interesado que nunca en la historia de este país, para que podamos repensar nuestro futuro, nuestra condición actual.",66.1,77.66,32,{"idx":115,"utterance_id":116,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":117,"start_s":118,"end_s":119,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},17,"86038","Tiene ocho capítulos, cada uno de ellos dedicado a un problema estructural de Brasil.",78.66,85.68,{"idx":121,"utterance_id":122,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":123,"start_s":124,"end_s":125,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},18,"86039","El primer capítulo es sobre la esclavitud y el racismo, el segundo sobre el mandonismo.",88.04,92.44,{"idx":127,"utterance_id":128,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":129,"start_s":130,"end_s":131,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},19,"86040","Tercero, sobre el patrimonialismo.",93.06,94.84,{"idx":13,"utterance_id":133,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":134,"start_s":135,"end_s":136,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},"86041","Cuarto, sobre la corrupción.",95.46,96.7,{"idx":138,"utterance_id":139,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":140,"start_s":141,"end_s":142,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},21,"86042","Quinto, sobre la desigualdad social.",97.34,99.08,{"idx":144,"utterance_id":145,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":146,"start_s":147,"end_s":148,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},22,"86043","Sexto, sobre la violencia.",99.74,101,{"idx":150,"utterance_id":151,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":152,"start_s":153,"end_s":154,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},23,"86044","Séptimo, sobre raza y género.",102.52,104.64,{"idx":21,"utterance_id":156,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":157,"start_s":158,"end_s":159,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},"86045","Octavo, sobre la intolerancia.",105.24,107.38,{"idx":161,"utterance_id":162,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":163,"start_s":164,"end_s":165,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},25,"86046","Es una especie de las ocho plagas de Brasil.",108.48,111.98,{"idx":167,"utterance_id":168,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":169,"start_s":170,"end_s":171,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},26,"86047","Hemos superado a Egipto.",113.06,114.54,{"idx":173,"utterance_id":174,"speaker_name":32,"text":175,"start_s":176,"end_s":177,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},27,"86048","Pero plagas superables, porque son plagas históricas, no plagas biológicas.",115.2,119.74,{"idx":179,"utterance_id":180,"speaker_name":32,"text":181,"start_s":182,"end_s":183,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},28,"86049","Entonces quería empezar...",119.78,121.26,{"idx":185,"utterance_id":186,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":187,"start_s":188,"end_s":189,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},29,"86050","Antes de hablar del Brasil actual, de las perspectivas que ves para nuestro futuro, tú eres historiadora y antropóloga, quería que tú,",122.24,129.58,{"idx":191,"utterance_id":192,"speaker_name":32,"text":193,"start_s":194,"end_s":195,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},30,"86051","en",131.48,131.56,{"idx":51,"utterance_id":197,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":198,"start_s":199,"end_s":200,"word_count":173,"indexable":14},"86052","rápidas pinceladas, abordaras estos temas, sobre todo aquellos que no son tan tematizados por la prensa, pero que son objeto de estudios historiográficos bastante profundos, como tú misma señalas.",132.18,146.4,{"idx":113,"utterance_id":202,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":203,"start_s":204,"end_s":205,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},"86053","Pero yo empezaría, bueno, la esclavitud es un tema clásico; luego hablas del mandonismo.",147.42,151.84,{"idx":207,"utterance_id":208,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":209,"start_s":210,"end_s":211,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},33,"86054","¿Por qué destacaste el mandonismo como un problema estructural de la historia brasileña?",152.6,158.4,{"idx":213,"utterance_id":214,"speaker_name":32,"text":215,"start_s":216,"end_s":217,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},34,"86055","Porque Brasil fue un país creado a partir de la lógica colonial.",159.06,165.78,{"idx":219,"utterance_id":220,"speaker_name":32,"text":221,"start_s":222,"end_s":223,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},35,"86056","También fue un país creado a partir de una metrópoli específica, Portugal, que era un país pequeño, con poca población.",167,173.74,{"idx":225,"utterance_id":226,"speaker_name":32,"text":227,"start_s":228,"end_s":229,"word_count":73,"indexable":14},36,"86057","Y esa lógica colonial forma, de manera perversa,",174.4,178.82,{"idx":231,"utterance_id":232,"speaker_name":32,"text":233,"start_s":234,"end_s":235,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},37,"86058","parte de nuestra historia y de nuestra estructura, como tú misma señalas.",179.14,182.56,{"idx":237,"utterance_id":238,"speaker_name":32,"text":239,"start_s":240,"end_s":241,"word_count":242,"indexable":14},38,"86059","Brasil, como todos sabemos, fue construido sobre la base de la distribución de grandes propiedades, propiedades en las que, si uno mira los mapas de los siglos XVI y XVII, sabíamos cuál era la costa, nadie sabía qué había más adentro; eran mapas muy curiosos, del tipo: tierras desconocidas.",184,201.08,49,{"idx":244,"utterance_id":245,"speaker_name":32,"text":246,"start_s":247,"end_s":248,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},39,"86060","Parece casi kafkiano, es decir... tierras desconocidas, pero ya están en el mapa.",201.18,205.84,{"idx":250,"utterance_id":251,"speaker_name":32,"text":252,"start_s":253,"end_s":254,"word_count":121,"indexable":14},40,"86061","Y esos territorios amplios, inmensos y sin límite, sin fin, eran entregados a ciertos gobernadores generales, donatarios.",206.38,215.56,{"idx":256,"utterance_id":257,"speaker_name":32,"text":258,"start_s":259,"end_s":260,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},41,"86062","En ese principio, por eso comienzo con la esclavitud, a partir del siguiente principio: algunos mandan y muchos deben obedecer.",215.98,224.86,{"idx":262,"utterance_id":263,"speaker_name":32,"text":264,"start_s":265,"end_s":266,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},42,"86063","Eso no funcionó, pero ese era el modelo.",225.44,227.82,{"idx":268,"utterance_id":269,"speaker_name":32,"text":270,"start_s":271,"end_s":272,"word_count":268,"indexable":14},43,"86064","Entonces creamos esa figura de los grandes mandones, de los grandes jefes oligárquicos, que tenían el control no solo económico, tenían el control político, el control social, el control religioso, el control cultural y también el control de la vida y de la muerte.",228.18,245.12,{"idx":274,"utterance_id":275,"speaker_name":32,"text":276,"start_s":277,"end_s":278,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},44,"86065","Existe una figura muy fuerte en la Primera República llamada el coronel.",245.72,249.7,{"idx":280,"utterance_id":281,"speaker_name":32,"text":282,"start_s":283,"end_s":284,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},45,"86066","¿Quién era el coronel?",250.2,251.08,{"idx":286,"utterance_id":287,"speaker_name":32,"text":288,"start_s":289,"end_s":290,"word_count":73,"indexable":14},46,"86067","No era una persona que hubiera seguido la carrera militar.",251.32,254.56,{"idx":292,"utterance_id":293,"speaker_name":32,"text":294,"start_s":295,"end_s":296,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},47,"86068","Eran grandes jefes oligárquicos que tenían en ese nombre, el coronel, una especie de aval político.",255.04,261.54,{"idx":298,"utterance_id":299,"speaker_name":32,"text":300,"start_s":301,"end_s":302,"word_count":144,"indexable":14},48,"86069","Es decir, podían mandar, mandaban y tenían el derecho de establecer en quién iba a votar el elector y cómo iba a votar.",261.64,270.54,{"idx":242,"utterance_id":304,"speaker_name":32,"text":305,"start_s":306,"end_s":307,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},"86070","Y eso se mantiene en nuestro presente.",271.1,273.42,{"idx":309,"utterance_id":310,"speaker_name":32,"text":311,"start_s":312,"end_s":313,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},50,"86071","Con las grandes familias de caciques.",273.86,276.6,{"idx":315,"utterance_id":316,"speaker_name":32,"text":317,"start_s":318,"end_s":319,"word_count":173,"indexable":14},51,"86072","Este modelo es tan fuerte que en las elecciones de 2018, donde se vendió la idea de un Brasil nuevo, una política nueva, nada de eso ocurrió.",277.1,287.04,{"idx":321,"utterance_id":322,"speaker_name":32,"text":323,"start_s":324,"end_s":325,"word_count":127,"indexable":14},52,"86073","La famosa bancada de los parientes, que son los grupos de candidatos que luego son diputados y senadores, ocupan esos puestos.",287.58,297.88,{"idx":327,"utterance_id":328,"speaker_name":32,"text":329,"start_s":330,"end_s":331,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},53,"86074","Ahora en Brasilia, ella creció en la elección de 2018 en lugar de disminuir.",297.94,302.6,{"idx":333,"utterance_id":334,"speaker_name":32,"text":335,"start_s":336,"end_s":337,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},54,"86075","Por lo tanto, yo diría bienvenido a la nueva vieja política brasileña.",302.68,307.36,{"idx":339,"utterance_id":340,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":341,"start_s":342,"end_s":343,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},55,"86076","¿Diría usted que las relaciones interpersonales fueron la tónica de las elecciones del año pasado en el Congreso Nacional?",307.44,317.04,{"idx":345,"utterance_id":346,"speaker_name":32,"text":347,"start_s":348,"end_s":349,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},56,"86077","Lo fueron y siguen siéndolo.",317.58,318.8,{"idx":351,"utterance_id":352,"speaker_name":32,"text":353,"start_s":354,"end_s":355,"word_count":73,"indexable":14},57,"86078","Tanto que la tercera plaga, la maldición, es el patrimonialismo.",319.18,323.24,{"idx":357,"utterance_id":358,"speaker_name":32,"text":359,"start_s":360,"end_s":361,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},58,"86079","¿Qué es el patrimonialismo?",324.36,325.86,{"idx":363,"utterance_id":364,"speaker_name":32,"text":365,"start_s":366,"end_s":367,"word_count":161,"indexable":14},59,"86080","Sé que usted conoce muy bien este tema, estudiamos en la universidad, fuimos colegas allí, colegas del glorioso curso PET, que tenía alumnos sensacionales.",326.24,335.66,{"idx":369,"utterance_id":370,"speaker_name":32,"text":359,"start_s":371,"end_s":372,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},60,"86081",336.22,337.46,{"idx":374,"utterance_id":375,"speaker_name":32,"text":376,"start_s":377,"end_s":378,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},61,"86082","En breve.",337.94,338.6,{"idx":380,"utterance_id":381,"speaker_name":32,"text":382,"start_s":383,"end_s":384,"word_count":161,"indexable":14},62,"86083","El patrimonialismo es cuando se permite que las esferas personales interfieran en las esferas públicas, cuando hay una inflación de lo privado por sobre lo público.",338.92,350.94,{"idx":386,"utterance_id":387,"speaker_name":32,"text":388,"start_s":389,"end_s":390,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},63,"86084","Esto en Brasil ocurre... en todo momento.",351.44,354.48,{"idx":392,"utterance_id":393,"speaker_name":32,"text":394,"start_s":395,"end_s":396,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},64,"86085","y fue también la tónica de las elecciones de 2018.",354.54,357.68,{"idx":398,"utterance_id":399,"speaker_name":32,"text":400,"start_s":401,"end_s":402,"word_count":121,"indexable":14},65,"86086","Bueno, basta con pensar que existió un candidato que simplemente cambió su apellido, ¿no es así?",357.9,363.94,{"idx":404,"utterance_id":405,"speaker_name":32,"text":406,"start_s":407,"end_s":408,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},66,"86087","Se convirtió en Hélio Bolsonaro, ¿no es así?",364.7,366.04,{"idx":410,"utterance_id":411,"speaker_name":32,"text":412,"start_s":413,"end_s":414,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},67,"86088","Para ganar la elección.",366.08,367.24,{"idx":416,"utterance_id":417,"speaker_name":32,"text":418,"start_s":419,"end_s":420,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},68,"86089","Pues, ¿qué significa eso?",367.66,368.88,{"idx":422,"utterance_id":423,"speaker_name":32,"text":424,"start_s":425,"end_s":426,"word_count":150,"indexable":14},69,"86090","Cuando se hace un trato corrupto y se hace que los propios valores privados sean más importantes que los valores de la res pública.",368.96,378.18,{"idx":428,"utterance_id":429,"speaker_name":32,"text":430,"start_s":431,"end_s":432,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},70,"86091","La res pública significa la cosa pública.",378.88,381.88,{"idx":434,"utterance_id":435,"speaker_name":32,"text":436,"start_s":437,"end_s":438,"word_count":167,"indexable":14},71,"86092","Entonces, el primer historiador brasileño, Frei Vicente, ya decía que el problema en Brasil es que todo el mundo era casa y nadie era público.",382.3,392,{"idx":440,"utterance_id":441,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":442,"start_s":443,"end_s":444,"word_count":231,"indexable":14},72,"86093","Lilian, una cosa que... Primero, creo que esta forma de exposición ayuda mucho a las personas que no son del área a organizar un poco el caudal de información que usted trae, de la relevancia que aporta.",392.68,408.74,{"idx":446,"utterance_id":447,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":448,"start_s":449,"end_s":450,"word_count":179,"indexable":14},73,"86094","Y eso también tiene costos, porque en un cierto momento uno se queda preguntándose cómo es que esas estructuras se relacionan en torno a una totalidad llamada Brasil.",411.56,422.94,{"idx":452,"utterance_id":453,"speaker_name":32,"text":454,"start_s":455,"end_s":456,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},74,"86095","Perfecto, concuerdo.",423.82,425.22,{"idx":458,"utterance_id":459,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":460,"start_s":461,"end_s":462,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},75,"86096","Y la pregunta que le hago, ¿qué es esa totalidad?",425.28,428.8,{"idx":464,"utterance_id":465,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":466,"start_s":467,"end_s":468,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},76,"86097","¿Cómo conseguimos ver Brasil?",428.86,431,{"idx":470,"utterance_id":471,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":472,"start_s":473,"end_s":474,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},77,"86098","Es decir, miramos cada una de estas cuestiones, nos reconocemos en ellas.",431.68,436.98,{"idx":476,"utterance_id":477,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":478,"start_s":479,"end_s":480,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},78,"86099","El día a día de Brasil es mucho eso, desde siempre.",437.58,440.4,{"idx":482,"utterance_id":483,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":484,"start_s":485,"end_s":486,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},79,"86100","¿Qué es esa totalidad?",441.44,442.84,{"idx":488,"utterance_id":489,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":490,"start_s":491,"end_s":492,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},80,"86101","¿Cuánto tiene que ver esto con nuestra tradición ibérica?",442.9,447.84,{"idx":494,"utterance_id":495,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":496,"start_s":497,"end_s":498,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},81,"86102","¿Cuánto es original de Brasil?",447.98,451.56,{"idx":500,"utterance_id":501,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":502,"start_s":503,"end_s":504,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},82,"86103","Toda esa polémica contemporánea, en la literatura contemporánea, sobre nuestra particularidad.",452.32,462.38,{"idx":506,"utterance_id":507,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":508,"start_s":509,"end_s":510,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},83,"86104","¿Cómo percibe usted esa totalidad?",463.9,465.76,{"idx":512,"utterance_id":513,"speaker_name":32,"text":514,"start_s":515,"end_s":516,"word_count":150,"indexable":14},84,"86105","Bueno, escribí este libro al calor del final del proceso electoral del año pasado y lo terminé y lo feché el 1.º de marzo.",466.46,476.74,{"idx":518,"utterance_id":519,"speaker_name":32,"text":520,"start_s":521,"end_s":522,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},85,"86106","¿Por qué lo feché?",476.8,477.5,{"idx":524,"utterance_id":525,"speaker_name":32,"text":526,"start_s":527,"end_s":528,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},86,"86107","Primero porque los historiadores son muy malos con la historia del presente.",478.12,481.16,{"idx":530,"utterance_id":531,"speaker_name":32,"text":532,"start_s":533,"end_s":534,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},87,"86108","Nos gusta analizar procesos cerrados.",481.2,483.44,{"idx":536,"utterance_id":537,"speaker_name":32,"text":538,"start_s":539,"end_s":540,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},88,"86109","Muchas veces nos equivocamos y está bien que nos equivoquemos, ¿no es así?",484.16,487.04,{"idx":542,"utterance_id":543,"speaker_name":32,"text":544,"start_s":545,"end_s":546,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},89,"86110","También lo feché porque el tiempo corre rápido en Brasil.",488.24,491.52,{"idx":548,"utterance_id":549,"speaker_name":32,"text":550,"start_s":551,"end_s":552,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},90,"86111","Pero, ¿cuáles eran las apuestas de este libro?",492,494.04,{"idx":554,"utterance_id":555,"speaker_name":32,"text":556,"start_s":557,"end_s":558,"word_count":73,"indexable":14},91,"86112","Que había, exactamente como usted dijo, un fenómeno más amplio.",494.1,498.66,{"idx":560,"utterance_id":561,"speaker_name":32,"text":562,"start_s":563,"end_s":564,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},92,"86113","y un fenómeno más particular.",499.26,500.58,{"idx":566,"utterance_id":567,"speaker_name":32,"text":568,"start_s":569,"end_s":570,"word_count":179,"indexable":14},93,"86114","Si acudimos a la historia del pasado, es posible decir que Brasil fue una colonia como otros países fueron colonias, pero aun así tuvo un destino distinto.",500.98,508.88,{"idx":572,"utterance_id":573,"speaker_name":32,"text":574,"start_s":575,"end_s":576,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},94,"86115","Entonces, de nuevo, lo particular.",509.22,510.48,{"idx":578,"utterance_id":579,"speaker_name":32,"text":580,"start_s":581,"end_s":582,"word_count":237,"indexable":14},95,"86116","Pero si vamos al presente, es posible decir —y me arriesgo aquí— que quien presta mucha atención a este término es el profesor Oscar Vilhena, y que estamos viviendo una ola conservadora que podríamos denominar democraduras.",510.92,525.24,{"idx":584,"utterance_id":585,"speaker_name":32,"text":586,"start_s":587,"end_s":588,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},96,"86117","¿Qué son democraduras?",526.36,527.68,{"idx":590,"utterance_id":591,"speaker_name":32,"text":592,"start_s":593,"end_s":594,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},97,"86118","¿Democraduras?",528.06,528.78,{"idx":596,"utterance_id":597,"speaker_name":32,"text":598,"start_s":599,"end_s":600,"word_count":127,"indexable":14},98,"86119","son gobiernos que siguen una pretensa forma democrática, pero que en su día a día contradicen esa forma democrática.",528.86,537.38,{"idx":602,"utterance_id":603,"speaker_name":32,"text":604,"start_s":605,"end_s":606,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},99,"86120","Son países que creen que la democracia se logra sólo con elecciones.",537.76,541.28,{"idx":608,"utterance_id":609,"speaker_name":32,"text":610,"start_s":611,"end_s":612,"word_count":150,"indexable":14},100,"86121","Bueno, no voy a enseñar a engañar ni a rezar, pero sabemos que la elección es sólo un momento ritual, ¿cierto?",542.28,549.06,{"idx":148,"utterance_id":614,"speaker_name":32,"text":615,"start_s":616,"end_s":617,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},"86122","Comienza a partir del día a día.",549.18,552.02,{"idx":619,"utterance_id":620,"speaker_name":32,"text":621,"start_s":622,"end_s":623,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},102,"86123","Estos son países que están creciendo.",553.22,555.48,{"idx":625,"utterance_id":626,"speaker_name":32,"text":627,"start_s":628,"end_s":629,"word_count":327,"indexable":14},103,"86124","Podemos recordar a Donald Trump en Estados Unidos, podemos recordar el caso de Filipinas, el caso de Hungría, el caso de Polonia, el caso de Italia y aún más —voy a plantear aquí una polémica— incluso Venezuela, que ha adoptado un modelo que no podemos llamar democrático.",555.8,574.78,{"idx":631,"utterance_id":632,"speaker_name":32,"text":633,"start_s":634,"end_s":635,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},104,"86125","Bueno, este es un panorama más amplio, pero ¿qué hay de específico en Brasil?",575.34,581.44,{"idx":637,"utterance_id":638,"speaker_name":32,"text":639,"start_s":640,"end_s":641,"word_count":113,"indexable":14},105,"86126","Lo que hay de específico en Brasil, y por eso empiezo el tema por ahí, es ese nudo de la cuestión de la esclavitud y ese nudo de la cuestión del racismo en Brasil.",581.82,592.86,{"idx":643,"utterance_id":644,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":645,"start_s":646,"end_s":647,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},106,"86127","Usted inaugura el libro con este tema, no por casualidad.",593.04,595.82,{"idx":649,"utterance_id":650,"speaker_name":32,"text":651,"start_s":652,"end_s":653,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},107,"86128","No, y también termino con ello, porque termino con raza y género.",596,598.86,{"idx":655,"utterance_id":656,"speaker_name":32,"text":657,"start_s":658,"end_s":659,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},108,"86129","Pienso que Brasil aún no...",599.58,601.98,{"idx":661,"utterance_id":662,"speaker_name":32,"text":663,"start_s":664,"end_s":665,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},109,"86130","Raza y género e intolerancia.",602.02,603.16,{"idx":667,"utterance_id":668,"speaker_name":32,"text":669,"start_s":670,"end_s":671,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},110,"86131","Y la intolerancia, tiene toda la razón.",603.2,604.8,{"idx":673,"utterance_id":674,"speaker_name":32,"text":675,"start_s":676,"end_s":677,"word_count":150,"indexable":14},111,"86132","Pienso que Brasil aún no... ha prestado atención a este tema, tanto que Brasil se niega a hacer políticas de reparación.",605.2,611.46,{"idx":679,"utterance_id":680,"speaker_name":32,"text":681,"start_s":682,"end_s":683,"word_count":173,"indexable":14},112,"86133","No es casualidad que nuestro jefe del ejecutivo, cuando aún era diputado federal, lanzó una polémica diciendo que los portugueses jamás habían pisado África.",611.88,621.14,{"idx":685,"utterance_id":686,"speaker_name":32,"text":687,"start_s":688,"end_s":689,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},113,"86134","Qué locura, ¿no?",621.86,622.5,{"idx":691,"utterance_id":692,"speaker_name":32,"text":693,"start_s":694,"end_s":695,"word_count":138,"indexable":14},114,"86135","Totalmente, respondí en Folha de São Paulo, porque su supuesta idea era que los africanos fueron los que se esclavizaron.",622.9,628.44,{"idx":697,"utterance_id":698,"speaker_name":32,"text":699,"start_s":700,"end_s":701,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},115,"86136","Sabemos que existía esclavitud en África, como existía en Europa, como existía en las Américas.",629.04,633.66,{"idx":703,"utterance_id":704,"speaker_name":32,"text":705,"start_s":706,"end_s":707,"word_count":231,"indexable":14},116,"86137","Pero la esclavitud mercantil, de la magnitud que tuvo, es decir, hablamos de la salida de más de 12 millones de africanos y africanas; de esos, 10 millones vinieron a las Américas, consiguieron llegar y... 4,8 se quedaron en Brasil.",634.04,652.98,{"idx":709,"utterance_id":710,"speaker_name":32,"text":711,"start_s":712,"end_s":713,"word_count":73,"indexable":14},117,"86138","Es decir, Brasil recibió prácticamente la mitad de esa población.",653.32,656.62,{"idx":715,"utterance_id":716,"speaker_name":32,"text":717,"start_s":718,"end_s":719,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},118,"86139","Brasil fue el último país en abolir la esclavitud en las Américas.",657.12,660.64,{"idx":721,"utterance_id":722,"speaker_name":32,"text":723,"start_s":724,"end_s":725,"word_count":73,"indexable":14},119,"86140","Sabemos que aún existe esclavitud; me refiero a la esclavitud mercantil.",660.72,663.8,{"idx":727,"utterance_id":728,"speaker_name":32,"text":729,"start_s":730,"end_s":731,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},120,"86141","Y Brasil no tuvo una política de pos-emancipación en el sentido de incluir a esa población.",664.46,670.26,{"idx":733,"utterance_id":734,"speaker_name":32,"text":735,"start_s":736,"end_s":737,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},121,"86142","Mira, Fernando, Brasil, en este momento, tiene un 55% de su población entre negros y pardos.",670.88,677.64,{"idx":739,"utterance_id":740,"speaker_name":32,"text":741,"start_s":742,"end_s":743,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},122,"86143","Esos son los datos actuales.",677.72,678.78,{"idx":745,"utterance_id":746,"speaker_name":32,"text":747,"start_s":748,"end_s":749,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},123,"86144","Somos el segundo país con mayor población de origen africano; sólo estamos por detrás de Nigeria.",679.26,685.14,{"idx":751,"utterance_id":752,"speaker_name":32,"text":753,"start_s":754,"end_s":755,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},124,"86145","Y aun así, hacemos una especie de diversionismo.",685.76,689.76,{"idx":757,"utterance_id":758,"speaker_name":32,"text":759,"start_s":760,"end_s":761,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},125,"86146","Esa es una especificidad nuestra.",689.96,691.42,{"idx":763,"utterance_id":764,"speaker_name":32,"text":765,"start_s":766,"end_s":767,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},126,"86147","Otra especificidad, el hecho de haber sido una colonia de explotación.",691.96,695.24,{"idx":769,"utterance_id":770,"speaker_name":32,"text":771,"start_s":772,"end_s":773,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},127,"86148","No todos los países lo fueron.",695.96,697.86,{"idx":775,"utterance_id":776,"speaker_name":32,"text":777,"start_s":778,"end_s":779,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},128,"86149","Colonias cuya economía, cuyo mercado se orientaba exclusivamente hacia afuera y no hacia dentro.",698.24,704.12,{"idx":781,"utterance_id":782,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":783,"start_s":784,"end_s":785,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},129,"86150","Productos primarios para exportación, ¿no?",704.32,705.98,{"idx":787,"utterance_id":788,"speaker_name":32,"text":789,"start_s":790,"end_s":791,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},130,"86151","Totalmente.",706.26,706.8,{"idx":793,"utterance_id":794,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":795,"start_s":796,"end_s":797,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},131,"86152","Todos los ciclos económicos, ¿no?",707.52,709.56,{"idx":799,"utterance_id":800,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":801,"start_s":802,"end_s":803,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},132,"86153","De la caña, del algodón, del café.",709.64,711.32,{"idx":805,"utterance_id":806,"speaker_name":32,"text":807,"start_s":808,"end_s":809,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},133,"86154","Todos de economía primaria.",711.82,713.32,{"idx":811,"utterance_id":812,"speaker_name":32,"text":813,"start_s":814,"end_s":815,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},134,"86155","Caucho, ¿no?",713.36,713.88,{"idx":817,"utterance_id":818,"speaker_name":32,"text":819,"start_s":820,"end_s":821,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},135,"86156","Sí, es decir, producíamos producto.",714.2,716.58,{"idx":823,"utterance_id":824,"speaker_name":32,"text":825,"start_s":826,"end_s":827,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},136,"86157","el producto natural para que fuera exportado y fuera incluso manufacturado en el exterior.",717.88,723.08,{"idx":829,"utterance_id":830,"speaker_name":32,"text":831,"start_s":832,"end_s":833,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},137,"86158","Pues, esos ciclos resultaron también, lo que hoy conocemos, en un sector agrario muy fuerte.",723.6,729.74,{"idx":835,"utterance_id":836,"speaker_name":32,"text":837,"start_s":838,"end_s":839,"word_count":213,"indexable":14},138,"86159","No estoy en contra del agronegocio; creo que hay representantes del agronegocio, pero todos sabemos también cómo el agronegocio impulsa nuestra economía y ejerce presión sobre nuestra población.",730.14,742.36,{"idx":841,"utterance_id":842,"speaker_name":32,"text":843,"start_s":844,"end_s":845,"word_count":161,"indexable":14},139,"86160","Sabemos muy bien de los conflictos que hemos tenido en zonas indígenas, en zonas quilombolas, y de los problemas, sin olvidar, de nuestro medio ambiente.",742.76,751.88,{"idx":847,"utterance_id":848,"speaker_name":32,"text":849,"start_s":850,"end_s":851,"word_count":179,"indexable":14},140,"86161","Entonces, si nos quedamos sólo en esto, podríamos hablar mucho más, pero en estos dos elementos —esclavitud... Fueron más de tres siglos de mano de obra esclava y ninguna compensación.",752.22,763.46,{"idx":853,"utterance_id":854,"speaker_name":32,"text":855,"start_s":856,"end_s":857,"word_count":144,"indexable":14},141,"86162","Consideremos también que fuimos una colonia de explotación que todavía nos presenta como un país que, sobre todo, produce productos primarios para exportación.",764.26,772.7,{"idx":859,"utterance_id":860,"speaker_name":32,"text":861,"start_s":862,"end_s":863,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},142,"86163","Esa fisonomía va cambiando.",772.88,774.14,{"idx":865,"utterance_id":866,"speaker_name":32,"text":867,"start_s":868,"end_s":869,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},143,"86164","Pero esos son sectores muy fuertes en nuestra economía y en nuestra política.",774.48,779.1,{"idx":871,"utterance_id":872,"speaker_name":32,"text":873,"start_s":874,"end_s":875,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},144,"86165","Bueno, ahí tenemos elementos muy particulares que hablan de nuestro autoritarismo.",779.58,784.44,{"idx":877,"utterance_id":878,"speaker_name":32,"text":879,"start_s":880,"end_s":881,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},145,"86166","La apuesta del libro es que no es que nos hayamos vuelto autoritarios.",784.5,788.04,{"idx":883,"utterance_id":884,"speaker_name":32,"text":885,"start_s":886,"end_s":887,"word_count":150,"indexable":14},146,"86167","Siempre hemos sido autoritarios, pero hubo un momento en que los brasileños gustaban de presentarse como democráticos, muy pacíficos y todo eso.",788.54,798.18,{"idx":889,"utterance_id":890,"speaker_name":32,"text":891,"start_s":892,"end_s":893,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},147,"86168","La pregunta de fondo es por qué dimos ese giro.",798.32,802.26,{"idx":895,"utterance_id":896,"speaker_name":32,"text":897,"start_s":898,"end_s":899,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},148,"86169","Y ahora queremos presentarnos ante el mundo como intolerantes, aversos a las minorías, en contra de la agenda del medio ambiente.",802.76,812.3,{"idx":901,"utterance_id":902,"speaker_name":32,"text":903,"start_s":904,"end_s":905,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},149,"86170","Eso cambió y eso es particular de Brasil.",812.5,814.86,{"idx":907,"utterance_id":908,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":909,"start_s":910,"end_s":911,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},150,"86171","¿Hasta qué punto lo que vivimos hoy es una recrudescencia de todo ese trágico pasado que vivimos?",815.58,825.18,{"idx":913,"utterance_id":914,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":915,"start_s":916,"end_s":917,"word_count":292,"indexable":14},151,"86172","Y hasta qué punto, provocado por sus observaciones sobre lo que está ocurriendo en el mundo, también es fruto de ese viento que viene soplando desde fuera y que tiene que ver también con el recrudecimiento de lo que están llamando... democracias iliberales o \"democraduras\", como tú lo pones.",825.34,845.78,{"idx":919,"utterance_id":920,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":921,"start_s":922,"end_s":923,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},152,"86173","¿Cuál es el vínculo entre nuestro pasado, es decir, entre la historia y la geografía presente?",846.86,853.7,{"idx":925,"utterance_id":926,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":927,"start_s":928,"end_s":929,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},153,"86174","¿Qué, en tu opinión, pesa más en el momento actual en Brasil?",854.1,857.48,{"idx":931,"utterance_id":932,"speaker_name":32,"text":933,"start_s":934,"end_s":935,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},154,"86175","Bueno, la pregunta es difícil.",858.42,859.72,{"idx":937,"utterance_id":938,"speaker_name":32,"text":939,"start_s":940,"end_s":941,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},155,"86176","La famosa pregunta vale un millón.",859.82,861.72,{"idx":943,"utterance_id":944,"speaker_name":32,"text":945,"start_s":946,"end_s":947,"word_count":150,"indexable":14},156,"86177","En un momento volveré a hacerte la pregunta, porque básicamente nadie puede responderla, pero creo que es una combinación.",863.86,870.1,{"idx":949,"utterance_id":950,"speaker_name":32,"text":951,"start_s":952,"end_s":953,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},157,"86178","Por ejemplo, no es posible decir que el racismo estructural e institucional que vivimos hoy en Brasil sea exclusivamente un legado del pasado.",870.52,880.98,{"idx":955,"utterance_id":956,"speaker_name":32,"text":957,"start_s":958,"end_s":959,"word_count":121,"indexable":14},158,"86179","Porque si decimos que es exclusivamente un legado del pasado, vamos a crear una actitud muy pasiva.",881.64,887.38,{"idx":961,"utterance_id":962,"speaker_name":32,"text":963,"start_s":964,"end_s":965,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},159,"86180","Es decir: la culpa es del pasado, lo siento mucho, no tengo nada que hacer.",888.18,892.3,{"idx":967,"utterance_id":968,"speaker_name":32,"text":969,"start_s":970,"end_s":971,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},160,"86181","No, estamos reproduciendo ampliamente ese pasado nuestro.",892.82,897.6,{"idx":973,"utterance_id":974,"speaker_name":32,"text":975,"start_s":976,"end_s":977,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},161,"86182","Suelo decir que nuestro presente está atormentado por nuestro pasado.",897.64,902.76,{"idx":979,"utterance_id":980,"speaker_name":32,"text":981,"start_s":982,"end_s":983,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},162,"86183","Entonces, ¿el pasado es importante?",903.26,904.9,{"idx":985,"utterance_id":986,"speaker_name":32,"text":987,"start_s":988,"end_s":989,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},163,"86184","Es muy importante.",905.06,905.94,{"idx":991,"utterance_id":992,"speaker_name":32,"text":993,"start_s":994,"end_s":995,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},164,"86185","¿Tenemos novedades del presente?",906.1,907.52,{"idx":997,"utterance_id":998,"speaker_name":32,"text":999,"start_s":1000,"end_s":1001,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},165,"86186","Sí, las tenemos.",907.64,908,{"idx":1003,"utterance_id":1004,"speaker_name":32,"text":1005,"start_s":1006,"end_s":1007,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},166,"86187","Vamos a hablar de la cuestión, vamos a dar un panorama más amplio para hablar del presente.",908.28,914.28,{"idx":222,"utterance_id":1009,"speaker_name":32,"text":1010,"start_s":1011,"end_s":1012,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},"86188","Hemos vivido, vamos a hablar de polarización, cambié.",914.74,918.14,{"idx":1014,"utterance_id":1015,"speaker_name":32,"text":1016,"start_s":1017,"end_s":1018,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},168,"86189","Si pensamos en las jornadas de 13, 14, creo que los brasileños vivieron ese momento.",918.22,924.6,{"idx":1020,"utterance_id":1021,"speaker_name":32,"text":1022,"start_s":1023,"end_s":1024,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},169,"86190","como un momento de mucha inclusión social, puesto que las jornadas tenían agendas muy diferenciadas.",925.52,931.36,{"idx":1026,"utterance_id":1027,"speaker_name":32,"text":1028,"start_s":1029,"end_s":1030,"word_count":161,"indexable":14},170,"86191","Había gente allí luchando por las poblaciones LGBTs, gente luchando por el feminismo, por el feminismo negro, por los profesores, contra los jugadores de fútbol, ustedes recuerdan bien aquellas.",931.9,941.46,{"idx":1032,"utterance_id":1033,"speaker_name":32,"text":1034,"start_s":1035,"end_s":1036,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},171,"86192","Y era un Brasil nuevo el que se presentaba.",941.9,943.98,{"idx":1038,"utterance_id":1039,"speaker_name":32,"text":1040,"start_s":1041,"end_s":1042,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},172,"86193","¿Qué no vimos allí?",944.52,945.82,{"idx":1044,"utterance_id":1045,"speaker_name":32,"text":1046,"start_s":1047,"end_s":1048,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},173,"86194","Que ya en aquella época, o al menos yo no lo vi, ya existían dos avenidas.",946.54,951.86,{"idx":1050,"utterance_id":1051,"speaker_name":32,"text":1052,"start_s":1053,"end_s":1054,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},174,"86195","que no tenían semáforo, no tenían bifurcación.",952.52,956.1,{"idx":1056,"utterance_id":1057,"speaker_name":32,"text":1058,"start_s":1059,"end_s":1060,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},175,"86196","Eran dos avenidas de agendas diferentes, con colores de camisetas distintos.",956.64,961.54,{"idx":1062,"utterance_id":1063,"speaker_name":32,"text":1064,"start_s":1065,"end_s":1066,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},176,"86197","Fue un momento en que secuestraron a una buena parte de los brasileños el verde y amarillo.",961.58,965.8,{"idx":1068,"utterance_id":1069,"speaker_name":32,"text":1070,"start_s":1071,"end_s":1072,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},177,"86198","Considero que fuimos secuestrados.",965.84,967.74,{"idx":1074,"utterance_id":1075,"speaker_name":32,"text":1076,"start_s":1077,"end_s":1078,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},178,"86199","Colores diferentes, agendas diferentes, ya había mucha intolerancia.",969.06,973.76,{"idx":1080,"utterance_id":1081,"speaker_name":32,"text":1082,"start_s":1083,"end_s":1084,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},179,"86200","Después de eso tuvimos nuestra crisis económica y financiera.",974.14,977.52,{"idx":1086,"utterance_id":1087,"speaker_name":32,"text":1088,"start_s":1089,"end_s":1090,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},180,"86201","Ustedes saben que las crisis están marcadas por algunos elementos.",977.6,980.52,{"idx":1092,"utterance_id":1093,"speaker_name":32,"text":1094,"start_s":1095,"end_s":1096,"word_count":161,"indexable":14},181,"86202","Barrington Moore, que sé que es un autor que te gusta mucho, dice que a veces tienes crisis por exceso de derechos.",981.16,986.76,{"idx":1098,"utterance_id":1099,"speaker_name":32,"text":1100,"start_s":1101,"end_s":1102,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},182,"86203","¿Es posible decir que desde el '88 veníamos practicando una democracia plena en Brasil?",987.42,992.9,{"idx":1104,"utterance_id":1105,"speaker_name":32,"text":1106,"start_s":1107,"end_s":1108,"word_count":150,"indexable":14},183,"86204","Es decir, si la democracia es siempre un proceso inconcluso... Porque siempre puedes mejorar; tienes que conquistar cada día nuevos derechos.",993.54,1002.4,{"idx":240,"utterance_id":1110,"speaker_name":32,"text":1111,"start_s":1112,"end_s":1113,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},"86205","Tuvimos una democracia bastante plena.",1002.76,1004.74,{"idx":1115,"utterance_id":1116,"speaker_name":32,"text":1117,"start_s":1118,"end_s":1119,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},185,"86206","¿Qué fue lo que provocó la crisis recesiva de los años 15, 16?",1005.14,1008.88,{"idx":1121,"utterance_id":1122,"speaker_name":32,"text":1123,"start_s":1124,"end_s":1125,"word_count":144,"indexable":14},186,"86207","Interrumpió un ciclo optimista, un ciclo virtuoso, como parecía que se iba a presentar para Brasil, y puso a los brasileños en primer plano.",1009.92,1019.06,{"idx":1127,"utterance_id":1128,"speaker_name":32,"text":1129,"start_s":1130,"end_s":1131,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},187,"86208","Por un lado, como dice Barrington Moore, muchos brasileños que habían conquistado derechos, querían más derechos.",1019.14,1025.58,{"idx":1133,"utterance_id":1134,"speaker_name":32,"text":1135,"start_s":1136,"end_s":1137,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},188,"86209","Eso estaba en la avenida.",1025.82,1026.92,{"idx":1139,"utterance_id":1140,"speaker_name":32,"text":1141,"start_s":1142,"end_s":1143,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},189,"86210","Y otros que fueron perdiendo derechos debido a la crisis recesiva, asumieron la figura de cobradores.",1027.38,1035.58,{"idx":1145,"utterance_id":1146,"speaker_name":32,"text":1147,"start_s":1148,"end_s":1149,"word_count":262,"indexable":14},190,"86211","Cobrador es aquel que dice: estoy reclamando mi empleo, estoy reclamando a mi mujer, que ahora es independiente, estoy reclamando a mi hijo, que tiene opciones de género diferentes a las mías, estoy reclamando... ¿Y de quién era la culpa?",1036.72,1047.66,{"idx":1151,"utterance_id":1152,"speaker_name":32,"text":1153,"start_s":1154,"end_s":1155,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},191,"86212","La culpa, en mi opinión, era de los nuevos agentes sociales y de la política.",1048.28,1051.92,{"idx":1157,"utterance_id":1158,"speaker_name":32,"text":1159,"start_s":1160,"end_s":1161,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},192,"86213","Otro elemento fuerte para hablar, no de la pintura general, sino de la particular, es el impeachment de la presidenta Dilma.",1052.66,1059.2,{"idx":1163,"utterance_id":1164,"speaker_name":32,"text":1165,"start_s":1166,"end_s":1167,"word_count":113,"indexable":14},193,"86214","El impeachment de 2016, la gente puede pensar lo que quiera; yo creo que fue un golpe, pero, en fin, lo que quiero discutir aquí es que el impeachment de la presidenta Dilma...",1060,1070.38,{"idx":1169,"utterance_id":1170,"speaker_name":32,"text":1171,"start_s":1172,"end_s":1173,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},194,"86215","estábamos hablando de patrimonialismo.",1070.44,1072.1,{"idx":1175,"utterance_id":1176,"speaker_name":32,"text":1177,"start_s":1178,"end_s":1179,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},195,"86216","La justificación de nuestros políticos no era una justificación pública, era una justificación de orden privado.",1072.54,1079.88,{"idx":1181,"utterance_id":1182,"speaker_name":32,"text":1183,"start_s":1184,"end_s":1185,"word_count":121,"indexable":14},196,"86217","Nuestros diputados votaron en nombre de su madre, de su hijo, de su primo, de su ciudad.",1080.68,1085.7,{"idx":1187,"utterance_id":1188,"speaker_name":32,"text":1189,"start_s":1190,"end_s":1191,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},197,"86218","Nunca trataron los términos del impeachment.",1085.82,1088.76,{"idx":1193,"utterance_id":1194,"speaker_name":32,"text":1195,"start_s":1196,"end_s":1197,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},198,"86219","Y creo que cuando ese proceso pasa, los brasileños avalizan esa intolerancia, esa polaridad.",1089.22,1098.96,{"idx":1199,"utterance_id":1200,"speaker_name":32,"text":1201,"start_s":1202,"end_s":1203,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},199,"86220","Eso que vivimos ahora, ¿qué es?",1100.32,1102.3,{"idx":1205,"utterance_id":1206,"speaker_name":32,"text":1207,"start_s":1208,"end_s":1209,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},200,"86221","En la democracia, tener adversarios es una forma virtuosa de ejercer el poder.",1103.06,1109.54,{"idx":1211,"utterance_id":1212,"speaker_name":32,"text":1213,"start_s":1214,"end_s":1215,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},201,"86222","¿En qué sentido?",1109.96,1110.76,{"idx":1217,"utterance_id":1218,"speaker_name":32,"text":1219,"start_s":1220,"end_s":1221,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},202,"86223","Porque la democracia se hace con la diferencia.",1111.12,1113.86,{"idx":1223,"utterance_id":1224,"speaker_name":32,"text":1225,"start_s":1226,"end_s":1227,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},203,"86224","Sin embargo, cuando quieres transformar a tu adversario en enemigo, ahí la conversación es otra.",1114.92,1121.62,{"idx":1229,"utterance_id":1230,"speaker_name":32,"text":1231,"start_s":1232,"end_s":1233,"word_count":268,"indexable":14},204,"86225","Entonces, creo que tenemos elementos de una pintura más amplia y elementos muy particulares que tienen que ver con nuestra crisis, que fue una crisis económica, pero insisto, fue también una crisis cultural, una crisis política y una crisis social.",1122.06,1137.36,{"idx":1235,"utterance_id":1236,"speaker_name":32,"text":1237,"start_s":1238,"end_s":1239,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},205,"86226","Y eso es lo que estamos viviendo hoy.",1137.86,1139.58,{"idx":1241,"utterance_id":1242,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1243,"start_s":1244,"end_s":1245,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},206,"86227","¿Cuál es tu percepción como ciudadana, como investigadora?",1140.08,1143.86,{"idx":1247,"utterance_id":1248,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1249,"start_s":1250,"end_s":1251,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},207,"86228","Nuestro ambiente se está deteriorando, existe un riesgo real.",1145.18,1148.56,{"idx":1253,"utterance_id":1254,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1255,"start_s":1256,"end_s":1257,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},208,"86229","¿Cuál es la actitud de las fuerzas políticas en cuanto a preservar ese valor?",1150.12,1154.7,{"idx":1259,"utterance_id":1260,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1261,"start_s":1262,"end_s":1263,"word_count":73,"indexable":14},209,"86230","tan importante para nuestras vidas, para nuestro futuro.",1155.82,1158.48,{"idx":1265,"utterance_id":1266,"speaker_name":32,"text":1267,"start_s":1268,"end_s":1269,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},210,"86231","Entonces, pienso que, por un lado, sí estamos teniendo ejemplos de cómo el gobierno quiere cada vez más atentar contra nuestra democracia.",1158.82,1168.28,{"idx":1271,"utterance_id":1272,"speaker_name":32,"text":1273,"start_s":1274,"end_s":1275,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},211,"86232","Nuestro jefe del ejecutivo no dijo solo una vez que él es quien manda.",1168.5,1172.06,{"idx":1277,"utterance_id":1278,"speaker_name":32,"text":1279,"start_s":1280,"end_s":1281,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},212,"86233","La destitución del jefe del INPE, ¿no es así?",1173.02,1176.16,{"idx":1283,"utterance_id":1284,"speaker_name":32,"text":1285,"start_s":1286,"end_s":1287,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},213,"86234","Fue un caso terrible, porque es exactamente un ejemplo de aquello a lo que tú llamabas la atención.",1177.04,1182.52,{"idx":1289,"utterance_id":1290,"speaker_name":32,"text":1291,"start_s":1292,"end_s":1293,"word_count":191,"indexable":14},214,"86235","Es decir, la persona habla desde... la perspectiva del ejecutivo, no es considerada una especialista, es considerada un enemigo y, por lo tanto, le tienen que cortar la cabeza.",1182.6,1193.86,{"idx":1295,"utterance_id":1296,"speaker_name":32,"text":1297,"start_s":1298,"end_s":1299,"word_count":286,"indexable":14},215,"86236","Esos son ejemplos; yo también soy antropóloga de formación y los antropólogos siempre creen que Dios mora en los detalles, es decir, que los detalles son muy significativos y muy simbólicos y que lo simbólico carga una eficacia muy grande, pero esos ejemplos han venido en aumento.",1194.3,1212.36,{"idx":1301,"utterance_id":1302,"speaker_name":32,"text":1303,"start_s":1304,"end_s":1305,"word_count":127,"indexable":14},216,"86237","Y muestran cómo estamos en un momento en que nuestro termómetro de la democracia anda por ahí mostrando fiebre alta, altísima.",1213.56,1221.5,{"idx":1307,"utterance_id":1308,"speaker_name":32,"text":1309,"start_s":1310,"end_s":1311,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},217,"86238","Pero no creo que estemos en un momento en que no hay nada que hacer.",1222.08,1225.62,{"idx":1313,"utterance_id":1314,"speaker_name":32,"text":1315,"start_s":1316,"end_s":1317,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},218,"86239","Pienso lo contrario.",1226.42,1227.38,{"idx":1319,"utterance_id":1320,"speaker_name":32,"text":1321,"start_s":1322,"end_s":1323,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},219,"86240","Sí, vivimos una crisis, que también es una crisis de valores.",1227.98,1231.48,{"idx":1325,"utterance_id":1326,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1327,"start_s":1328,"end_s":1329,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},220,"86241","¿Crees que el episodio de la Bienal o las jornadas de mayo... por la educación?",1231.52,1237.2,{"idx":1331,"utterance_id":1332,"speaker_name":32,"text":1333,"start_s":1334,"end_s":1335,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},221,"86242","Exactamente, eso es lo que quería decir.",1237.32,1238.74,{"idx":1337,"utterance_id":1338,"speaker_name":32,"text":1339,"start_s":1340,"end_s":1341,"word_count":51,"indexable":14},222,"86243","Creo que yo estuve allí, también lo vi en la Paulista; pienso que estamos viviendo un momento en que la sociedad civil ha sido llamada a manifestarse.",1238.84,1249.82,{"idx":1343,"utterance_id":1344,"speaker_name":32,"text":1345,"start_s":1346,"end_s":1347,"word_count":127,"indexable":14},223,"86244","Y cuando digo llamada a manifestarse, al menos en mi percepción, es llamada a manifestarse democráticamente.",1250.42,1258.9,{"idx":1349,"utterance_id":1350,"speaker_name":32,"text":1351,"start_s":1352,"end_s":1353,"word_count":144,"indexable":14},224,"86245","Creo que la democracia es flexible en ese sentido, es decir, tiene que mejorar, tiene que ser perfeccionada cada día.",1259.34,1266.4,{"idx":1355,"utterance_id":1356,"speaker_name":32,"text":1357,"start_s":1358,"end_s":1359,"word_count":280,"indexable":14},225,"86246","Entonces, me imagino que las jornadas, por ejemplo, de mayo, por la educación... Fue un momento maravilloso; no pude asistir en todo Brasil, porque no tenemos poder, el cuerpo no puede estar en todos los lugares, pero ese era mi deseo.",1266.7,1279.2,{"idx":1361,"utterance_id":1362,"speaker_name":32,"text":1363,"start_s":1364,"end_s":1365,"word_count":298,"indexable":14},226,"86247","Pero en la Avenida Paulista fue impresionante el clima de calma; lo que se pedía era una jornada muy concentrada, en fin, no podíamos imaginar que el MEC (Ministerio de Educación) recortaría de la manera en que está recortando las becas y recortaría la ciencia de la manera en que lo está haciendo.",1279.64,1299.58,{"idx":1367,"utterance_id":1368,"speaker_name":32,"text":1369,"start_s":1370,"end_s":1371,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},227,"86248","Fue un momento muy democrático, así como lo que ocurrió en la Bienal.",1300.94,1304.92,{"idx":1373,"utterance_id":1374,"speaker_name":32,"text":1375,"start_s":1376,"end_s":1377,"word_count":225,"indexable":14},228,"86249","Yo estuve allí; hubo una marcha con personas con libros en las manos, y eran libros de temáticas variadas, que mostraban en sí una población lectora y una población comprometida con el fin de la censura.",1305.54,1321.1,{"idx":1379,"utterance_id":1380,"speaker_name":32,"text":1381,"start_s":1382,"end_s":1383,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},229,"86250","Es un símbolo muy fuerte de esos gobiernos autoritarios.",1321.64,1325.16,{"idx":1385,"utterance_id":1386,"speaker_name":32,"text":1387,"start_s":1388,"end_s":1389,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},230,"86251","¿Qué realizan?",1326.08,1327.36,{"idx":1391,"utterance_id":1392,"speaker_name":32,"text":1393,"start_s":1394,"end_s":1395,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},231,"86252","Intentan atacar el periodismo, intentan atacar las instituciones, intentan atacar la academia y, sobre todo, profesan esa histeria en relación con las cuestiones de género.",1327.4,1338.76,{"idx":1397,"utterance_id":1398,"speaker_name":32,"text":1399,"start_s":1400,"end_s":1401,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},232,"86253","Esas son las puntas del iceberg, en mi opinión.",1339.32,1341.96,{"idx":1403,"utterance_id":1404,"speaker_name":32,"text":1405,"start_s":1406,"end_s":1407,"word_count":121,"indexable":14},233,"86254","Pero lo que muestran es hasta dónde el gobierno puede llegar con su autoritarismo.",1342.36,1348.62,{"idx":1409,"utterance_id":1410,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1411,"start_s":1412,"end_s":1413,"word_count":179,"indexable":14},234,"86255","Lili, voy a tocar un asunto delicadísimo, porque son cuestiones que generalmente se malinterpretan y a veces se distorsionan, de modo que sean mal comprendidas por quienes nos escuchan.",1348.66,1366.24,{"idx":1415,"utterance_id":1416,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1417,"start_s":1418,"end_s":1419,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},235,"86256","Que es la cuestión de la religión.",1367.54,1368.64,{"idx":1421,"utterance_id":1422,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1423,"start_s":1424,"end_s":1425,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},236,"86257","Lili, sabes que soy hijo de libanés.",1370.08,1373.84,{"idx":1427,"utterance_id":1428,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1429,"start_s":1430,"end_s":1431,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},237,"86258","Mi padre nació en el Líbano y mi madre es hija de libanés.",1375.76,1378.7,{"idx":1433,"utterance_id":1434,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1435,"start_s":1436,"end_s":1437,"word_count":191,"indexable":14},238,"86259","Por lo tanto, vengo de una región donde la religión es un tema recurrente y buena parte de la inmigración sirio-libanesa a Brasil se dio por causas religiosas, no solo económicas.",1378.76,1396.8,{"idx":1439,"utterance_id":1440,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1441,"start_s":1442,"end_s":1443,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},239,"86260","También económicas, pero también religiosas.",1397.26,1400.18,{"idx":1445,"utterance_id":1446,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1447,"start_s":1448,"end_s":1449,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},240,"86261","Vinieron en busca de un lugar donde hubiera paz, desde el punto de vista... religioso, y oportunidades económicas.",1401.24,1409.06,{"idx":1451,"utterance_id":1452,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1453,"start_s":1454,"end_s":1455,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},241,"86262","Entonces llevé conmigo, desde mi infancia, la perspectiva de una congregación en torno a la religión.",1410.38,1419.4,{"idx":1457,"utterance_id":1458,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1459,"start_s":1460,"end_s":1461,"word_count":185,"indexable":14},242,"86263","Tanto es así que toda mi vida fui educado para valorar la amistad con judíos, con musulmanes, precisamente lo que mi familia no tenía necesariamente en el Oriente Medio.",1420.24,1435.74,{"idx":1463,"utterance_id":1464,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1465,"start_s":1466,"end_s":1467,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},243,"86264","Entonces, para nosotros, esta cuestión del respeto religioso es una cuestión muy valiosa.",1436.28,1440.34,{"idx":1469,"utterance_id":1470,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1471,"start_s":1472,"end_s":1473,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},244,"86265","Y tengo un temor, y entonces me pregunto, le pregunto a usted si estoy siendo, de cierta forma, influenciado por mis raíces.",1441.22,1453.72,{"idx":1475,"utterance_id":1476,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1477,"start_s":1478,"end_s":1479,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},245,"86266","Tengo el temor de que este tipo de conflicto se establezca en Brasil, porque nunca había visto que se discutiera tanto este asunto aquí.",1454.16,1460.64,{"idx":1481,"utterance_id":1482,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1483,"start_s":1484,"end_s":1485,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},246,"86267","Entonces, es la cuestión de la embajada.",1461.36,1463.04,{"idx":1487,"utterance_id":1488,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1489,"start_s":1490,"end_s":1491,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},247,"86268","El traslado de la Embajada de Tel Aviv a Jerusalén.",1464.32,1466.82,{"idx":1493,"utterance_id":1494,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1495,"start_s":1496,"end_s":1497,"word_count":79,"indexable":14},248,"86269","Que es un tema que no estaba planteado en la agenda nacional.",1468.16,1471.9,{"idx":1499,"utterance_id":1500,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1501,"start_s":1502,"end_s":1503,"word_count":150,"indexable":14},249,"86270","Conflicto ahora con la Iglesia Católica, en relación con el sínodo de la Amazonía, en relación con la posición del Papa sobre los derechos humanos, sobre la tolerancia.",1472.78,1483.88,{"idx":1505,"utterance_id":1506,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1507,"start_s":1508,"end_s":1509,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},250,"86271","Temas extraños a nuestra tradición, incluso a la más remota.",1485.18,1488.82,{"idx":1511,"utterance_id":1512,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1513,"start_s":1514,"end_s":1515,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},251,"86272","Incluso mirando hacia atrás.",1491.14,1492.44,{"idx":1517,"utterance_id":1518,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1519,"start_s":1520,"end_s":1521,"word_count":179,"indexable":14},252,"86273","La religión siempre tuvo un peso importante en Brasil, pero los conflictos religiosos no adquirían una expresión política, como la están adquiriendo hoy, incluso desde el punto de vista electoral.",1492.78,1502.82,{"idx":1523,"utterance_id":1524,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1525,"start_s":1526,"end_s":1527,"word_count":61,"indexable":14},253,"86274","¿Usted teme el desenlace de este tipo de discurso?",1504.24,1507.74,{"idx":1529,"utterance_id":1530,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1531,"start_s":1532,"end_s":1533,"word_count":53,"indexable":14},254,"86275","¿Se imagina usted que esto pueda ser un tema que ha venido para quedarse en Brasil?",1507.82,1513.28,{"idx":1535,"utterance_id":1536,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1537,"start_s":1538,"end_s":1539,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},255,"86276","¿O cree usted que es un momento que sabremos superar?",1514.94,1518.04,{"idx":1541,"utterance_id":1542,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1543,"start_s":1544,"end_s":1545,"word_count":127,"indexable":14},256,"86277","¿Cuál es la tendencia de... Es un tema que me preocupa mucho, quizá influenciado, como dije, por mis raíces.",1519.08,1527.98,{"idx":1547,"utterance_id":1548,"speaker_name":32,"text":1549,"start_s":1550,"end_s":1551,"word_count":225,"indexable":14},257,"86278","Bueno, podría volverme en contra y decir, usar al viejo y buen personaje de Machado de Assis, el consejero Ayres; los consejeros hacían eso, aconsejaban, que decía, las cosas sólo son previsibles cuando ya han ocurrido.",1529.02,1542.3,{"idx":1553,"utterance_id":1554,"speaker_name":32,"text":1555,"start_s":1556,"end_s":1557,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},258,"86279","Pero no me iré, me quedaré.",1543.12,1544.52,{"idx":1559,"utterance_id":1560,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1561,"start_s":1562,"end_s":1563,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},259,"86280","No, aquí hay un carácter especulativo.",1545.6,1547.58,{"idx":1565,"utterance_id":1566,"speaker_name":32,"text":1567,"start_s":1568,"end_s":1569,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},260,"86281","Sí, vamos a especular aquí.",1547.68,1549.06,{"idx":1571,"utterance_id":1572,"speaker_name":32,"text":1573,"start_s":1574,"end_s":1575,"word_count":121,"indexable":14},261,"86282","Lo primero que creo es que, en la crisis, la crisis tiene aspectos buenos, pero tiene más aspectos malos.",1549.98,1556.02,{"idx":1577,"utterance_id":1578,"speaker_name":32,"text":1579,"start_s":1580,"end_s":1581,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},262,"86283","¿De comprensión de los procesos?",1556.28,1558.08,{"idx":1583,"utterance_id":1584,"speaker_name":32,"text":1585,"start_s":1586,"end_s":1587,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},263,"86284","Pienso que sí, porque la crisis muchas veces explicita conflictos, que son conflictos que quedan subterráneos.",1558.12,1565.36,{"idx":1589,"utterance_id":1590,"speaker_name":32,"text":1591,"start_s":1592,"end_s":1593,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},264,"86285","Entonces diría que Brasil siempre ha tenido conflictos religiosos, no guerras.",1565.74,1570.3,{"idx":1595,"utterance_id":1596,"speaker_name":32,"text":1597,"start_s":1598,"end_s":1599,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},265,"86286","Pero si pensamos que las religiones de matriz, en el candomblé, era necesario tener un orixá.",1570.72,1577.42,{"idx":1601,"utterance_id":1602,"speaker_name":32,"text":1603,"start_s":1604,"end_s":1605,"word_count":219,"indexable":14},266,"86287","que fuera compatible con un santo, porque así usted fingía que estaba rezando al santo, pero estaba rindiendo culto a su orixá; eso ya es un conflicto, es decir, usted ya tenía un no reconocimiento.",1578.1,1591.62,{"idx":1607,"utterance_id":1608,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1609,"start_s":1610,"end_s":1611,"word_count":67,"indexable":14},267,"86288","Es decir, es fruto de la violencia, de cierta manera.",1591.66,1593.82,{"idx":1613,"utterance_id":1614,"speaker_name":32,"text":1615,"start_s":1616,"end_s":1617,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},268,"86289","Es otra forma de violencia, pero una forma de violencia muy fuerte.",1593.92,1597.36,{"idx":1619,"utterance_id":1620,"speaker_name":32,"text":1621,"start_s":1622,"end_s":1623,"word_count":121,"indexable":14},269,"86290","Si pensamos en la rebelión de los malês, que estalla en los años 30 del siglo XIX, en Salvador.",1597.68,1605.24,{"idx":1625,"utterance_id":1626,"speaker_name":32,"text":1627,"start_s":1628,"end_s":1629,"word_count":179,"indexable":14},270,"86291","Salvador fue tomada... por esclavizados de origen malê que escribieron en las paredes mensajes que los señores no podían reconocer y que eran musulmanes y que tenían otras religiones.",1605.82,1621.2,{"idx":1631,"utterance_id":1632,"speaker_name":32,"text":1633,"start_s":1634,"end_s":1635,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},271,"86292","fueron reprimidos y muertos ejemplarmente.",1621.7,1625.02,{"idx":1637,"utterance_id":1638,"speaker_name":32,"text":1639,"start_s":1640,"end_s":1641,"word_count":207,"indexable":14},272,"86293","Entonces tenemos, podría dar varios ejemplos; quizá el más clamoroso es que en 1930 Getúlio Vargas, nuestro presidente populista —hubo muchos Vargas, pero hablemos de su faceta populista—",1625.34,1639.54,{"idx":1643,"utterance_id":1644,"speaker_name":32,"text":1645,"start_s":1646,"end_s":1647,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},273,"86294","Él decidió nacionalizar y desafricanizar la capoeira y, por ejemplo, el candomblé.",1640.16,1648.78,{"idx":1649,"utterance_id":1650,"speaker_name":32,"text":1651,"start_s":1652,"end_s":1653,"word_count":115,"indexable":14},274,"86295","Soy bastante levistrociana, es decir, muy ligada a Levistroza, ese antropólogo estructural, que dice qué?",1651.04,1657.76,{"idx":1655,"utterance_id":1656,"speaker_name":32,"text":1657,"start_s":1658,"end_s":1659,"word_count":73,"indexable":14},275,"86296","Sólo se crean reglas si existe el deseo de burlarlas.",1658.5,1663.24,{"idx":1661,"utterance_id":1662,"speaker_name":32,"text":1663,"start_s":1664,"end_s":1665,"word_count":121,"indexable":14},276,"86297","Si no existiera problema en relación al candomblé, ¿por qué Getúlio Vargas tendría que aprobar una ley?",1665.02,1669.9,{"idx":1667,"utterance_id":1668,"speaker_name":32,"text":1669,"start_s":1670,"end_s":1671,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},277,"86298","No tendría que aprobar una ley, ¿cierto?",1670.42,1671.98,{"idx":1673,"utterance_id":1674,"speaker_name":32,"text":1675,"start_s":1676,"end_s":1677,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},278,"86299","No voy a aprobar una ley.",1672.02,1672.78,{"idx":1679,"utterance_id":1680,"speaker_name":32,"text":1681,"start_s":1682,"end_s":1683,"word_count":138,"indexable":14},279,"86300","Está prohibido sentarse encima de la mesa, porque ninguno de nosotros tiene ese deseo absoluto de burlar esa regla.",1673.12,1679.12,{"idx":1685,"utterance_id":1686,"speaker_name":32,"text":1687,"start_s":1688,"end_s":1689,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},280,"86301","Creamos reglas para eso.",1679.16,1680.44,{"idx":1691,"utterance_id":1692,"speaker_name":32,"text":1693,"start_s":1694,"end_s":1695,"word_count":161,"indexable":14},281,"86302","Y el mismo problema es si prestan atención al letrerito que todavía existe hoy día al lado de los ascensores, que dice 'prohibido', ¿recuerdan?",1681.06,1690.28,{"idx":1697,"utterance_id":1698,"speaker_name":32,"text":1699,"start_s":1700,"end_s":1701,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},282,"86303","Discriminar por raza.",1690.38,1692.48,{"idx":1703,"utterance_id":1704,"speaker_name":32,"text":1705,"start_s":1706,"end_s":1707,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},283,"86304","Etnia, religión.",1693.32,1694.88,{"idx":1709,"utterance_id":1710,"speaker_name":32,"text":1711,"start_s":1712,"end_s":1713,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},284,"86305","Es decir, de nuevo, tenemos una placa que muestra cuánto, en el fondo, reprimimos.",1695.56,1702.1,{"idx":1715,"utterance_id":1716,"speaker_name":32,"text":1717,"start_s":1718,"end_s":1719,"word_count":244,"indexable":14},285,"86306","Entonces, creo que si hay un lado bueno en la crisis, no quiero ser Pollyanna, porque en mi libro no soy nada Pollyanna, pero es porque deja aflorar aspectos que no queríamos ver, pero que ya existían.",1702.84,1717.5,{"idx":1721,"utterance_id":1722,"speaker_name":32,"text":1723,"start_s":1724,"end_s":1725,"word_count":73,"indexable":14},286,"86307","Es el mismo juego que hago con el autoritarismo.",1717.98,1720.52,{"idx":1727,"utterance_id":1728,"speaker_name":32,"text":1729,"start_s":1730,"end_s":1731,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},287,"86308","Siempre hemos sido autoritarios.",1720.64,1722.3,{"idx":1733,"utterance_id":1734,"speaker_name":32,"text":1735,"start_s":1736,"end_s":1737,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},288,"86309","pero nos gustaba decir que no lo éramos.",1722.76,1724.8,{"idx":1739,"utterance_id":1740,"speaker_name":32,"text":1741,"start_s":1742,"end_s":1743,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},289,"86310","Entonces, pienso que no tuvimos guerras del tipo que sus padres pasaron, o que mis padres pasaron.",1725.3,1730.6,{"idx":1745,"utterance_id":1746,"speaker_name":32,"text":1747,"start_s":1748,"end_s":1749,"word_count":121,"indexable":14},290,"86311","Mi familia es judía y vino aquí por lo que fue la Segunda Guerra Mundial.",1730.8,1736.1,{"idx":1751,"utterance_id":1752,"speaker_name":32,"text":1753,"start_s":1754,"end_s":1755,"word_count":191,"indexable":14},291,"86312","Es decir, el primo Levy, que es un gran escritor, que se suicidó, dijo que después de la experiencia de los campos de concentración, la humanidad no sería la misma.",1736.68,1748.4,{"idx":1757,"utterance_id":1758,"speaker_name":32,"text":1759,"start_s":1760,"end_s":1761,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},292,"86313","Entonces, la idea era esa: venir a un país... de inexistencia de conflictos religiosos.",1748.74,1754.34,{"idx":1763,"utterance_id":1764,"speaker_name":32,"text":1765,"start_s":1766,"end_s":1767,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},293,"86314","Lo que este gobierno ha demostrado es que sólo tiene fermento porque existe una realidad.",1754.9,1759.52,{"idx":1769,"utterance_id":1770,"speaker_name":32,"text":1771,"start_s":1772,"end_s":1773,"word_count":73,"indexable":14},294,"86315","Entonces, buena parte de nuestra intolerancia está basada en la religión.",1759.76,1763.46,{"idx":1775,"utterance_id":1776,"speaker_name":32,"text":1777,"start_s":1778,"end_s":1779,"word_count":55,"indexable":14},295,"86316","Si no existiera, esto no florecería aquí.",1764,1767.14,{"idx":1781,"utterance_id":1782,"speaker_name":32,"text":1783,"start_s":1784,"end_s":1785,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},296,"86317","¿Por qué sólo floreció?",1767.56,1768.62,{"idx":1787,"utterance_id":1788,"speaker_name":32,"text":1789,"start_s":1790,"end_s":1791,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},297,"86318","Porque ya existía, pero estaba callado.",1768.84,1771.08,{"idx":1793,"utterance_id":1794,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1795,"start_s":1796,"end_s":1797,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},298,"86319","Bueno, podría pasar días aquí con mi colega de facultad, Lília Schwartz.",1771.74,1775.9,{"idx":1799,"utterance_id":1800,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1801,"start_s":1802,"end_s":1803,"word_count":43,"indexable":14},299,"86320","Un enorme placer recibirte.",1776.64,1778,{"idx":1805,"utterance_id":1806,"speaker_name":32,"text":1807,"start_s":1808,"end_s":1809,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},300,"86321","Todo mío.",1778.3,1778.7,{"idx":1811,"utterance_id":1812,"speaker_name":32,"text":1813,"start_s":1814,"end_s":1815,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},301,"86322","Una delicia.",1778.78,1779.4,{"idx":1817,"utterance_id":1818,"speaker_name":32,"text":1819,"start_s":1820,"end_s":1821,"word_count":23,"indexable":14},302,"86323","Muy grande.",1779.44,1780.08,{"idx":1823,"utterance_id":1824,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1825,"start_s":1826,"end_s":1827,"word_count":21,"indexable":14},303,"86324","Estoy segura de que nuestro público aquí, que a las 8 de la noche del lunes nos ve, sacará gran provecho de esta nuestra conversación.",1780.62,1788.02,{"idx":1829,"utterance_id":1830,"speaker_name":32,"text":1831,"start_s":1832,"end_s":1833,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},304,"86325","Soy yo quien agradece.",1788.08,1789.16,{"idx":1835,"utterance_id":1836,"speaker_name":32,"text":1837,"start_s":1838,"end_s":1839,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},305,"86326","Muchas gracias, Lívia.",1789.2,1790.02,{"idx":1841,"utterance_id":1842,"speaker_name":32,"text":1843,"start_s":1844,"end_s":1845,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},306,"86327","Gracias.",1807.5,1807.64,"es",{"job_id":1848,"title":1849,"source_url":1850,"platform":1851,"content_type":1852,"published_at":1853,"duration_sec":1854,"n_classified":1855,"speakers":1856},"5cf8afca-56db-4d9d-9ee1-9c7aaaa8e792","Painel Haddad (21\u002F10\u002F2019) - Lilia Schwarcz","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002Fwatch?v=HC-PJPKtJLo","youtube","video","2019-10-21T23:00:12Z",1807.65025,307,[1857],{"name":8,"slug":9,"n_falas":476},"https:\u002F\u002Fi.ytimg.com\u002Fvi\u002FHC-PJPKtJLo\u002Fhqdefault.jpg",{"limit":73,"offset":6,"topics":1860,"total":1901},[1861,1865,1869,1873,1877,1881,1885,1889,1893,1897],{"label":1862,"n_speakers":167,"n_utterances":1863,"n_videos":1145,"slug":1864},"Seguridad Nacional",2695,"seguranca-nacional",{"label":1866,"n_speakers":113,"n_utterances":1867,"n_videos":1379,"slug":1868},"Educación",1685,"educacao",{"label":1870,"n_speakers":150,"n_utterances":1871,"n_videos":1469,"slug":1872},"Seguridad pública y orden",1580,"seguranca-publica-e-ordem",{"label":1874,"n_speakers":207,"n_utterances":1875,"n_videos":1757,"slug":1876},"Combate a la Impunidad",1469,"combate-a-impunidade",{"label":1878,"n_speakers":113,"n_utterances":1879,"n_videos":1823,"slug":1880},"Política monetaria",1448,"politica-monetaria",{"label":1882,"n_speakers":150,"n_utterances":1883,"n_videos":901,"slug":1884},"Poder judicial",846,"poder-judiciario",{"label":1886,"n_speakers":179,"n_utterances":1887,"n_videos":1074,"slug":1888},"Servicio Público",788,"servico-publico",{"label":1890,"n_speakers":161,"n_utterances":1891,"n_videos":841,"slug":1892},"Salud Pública \u002F Seguridad Pública",756,"saude-publica-seguranca-publica",{"label":1894,"n_speakers":179,"n_utterances":1895,"n_videos":1187,"slug":1896},"Política social",684,"politica-social",{"label":1898,"n_speakers":144,"n_utterances":1899,"n_videos":811,"slug":1900},"Reforma fiscal",671,"reforma-fiscal",625,{"limit":73,"offset":6,"speakers":1903,"total":231},[1904,1918,1930,1939,1947,1958,1969,1977,1984,1995],{"slug":1905,"name":1906,"party":1907,"role":1907,"state":1907,"n_speeches":1908,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1909,"photo_url":1913,"bio_short":1907,"wikidata_id":1914,"mandate_status":1915,"social_links":1916},"renan-santos","Renan Santos","",22525,[1910,1911,1912],"Abuso de Autoridad","Acciones afirmativas","Acción ejecutiva","\u002Fprofiles\u002Frenan-santos\u002Fphoto.png","Q51882553","none",{"twitter":1917},"@RenanSantosMBL",{"slug":1919,"name":1920,"party":1907,"role":1907,"state":1921,"n_speeches":1922,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1923,"photo_url":1926,"bio_short":1907,"wikidata_id":1927,"mandate_status":1915,"social_links":1928},"romeu-zema","Romeu Zema","MG",12888,[1912,1924,1925],"Activismo político","Afiliación Partidaria","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fromeu-zema\u002Fphoto.png","Q57092113",{"twitter":1929},"@RomeuZema",{"slug":1931,"name":1932,"party":1907,"role":1907,"state":1907,"n_speeches":1933,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1934,"bio_short":1907,"mandate_status":1915,"social_links":1936},"pablo-marcal","Pablo Marçal",12772,[1935,1912,1924],"Acción Humanitaria",{"twitter":1937,"youtube":1938},"@pablomarcal","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002F@pablomarcall",{"slug":9,"name":8,"party":1907,"role":1907,"state":1940,"n_speeches":1941,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1942,"bio_short":1907,"wikidata_id":1945,"mandate_status":1915,"social_links":1946},"SP",12647,[1925,1943,1944],"Agricultura y agronegocio","Alianzas políticas","Q3069485",{},{"slug":1948,"name":1949,"party":1907,"role":1907,"state":1950,"n_speeches":1951,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1952,"photo_url":1954,"bio_short":1907,"wikidata_id":1955,"mandate_status":1915,"social_links":1956},"ronaldo-caiado","Ronaldo Caiado","GO",12538,[1911,1925,1953],"Agenda Pública","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fronaldo-caiado\u002Fphoto.png","Q10364348",{"twitter":1957},"@ronaldocaiado",{"slug":1959,"name":1960,"party":1907,"role":1961,"state":1940,"n_speeches":1962,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1963,"photo_url":1965,"bio_short":1907,"wikidata_id":1966,"mandate_status":1915,"social_links":1967},"tarcisio","Tarcisio","Governador",11298,[1964,1925,1953],"Actos Legislativos Locales","\u002Fprofiles\u002Ftarcisio\u002Fphoto.png","Q60392579",{"twitter":1968},"tarcisiogdf",{"slug":1970,"name":1971,"party":1907,"role":1907,"state":1907,"n_speeches":1972,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1973,"photo_url":1974,"bio_short":1907,"wikidata_id":1975,"mandate_status":1915,"social_links":1976},"luis-inacio-lula-da-silva","Luis Inacio Lula da Silva",10531,[1924,1925,1943],"\u002Fprofiles\u002Fluis-inacio-lula-da-silva\u002Fphoto.png","Q37181",{},{"slug":1978,"name":1979,"party":1907,"role":1907,"state":1907,"n_speeches":1980,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1981,"bio_short":1907,"mandate_status":1915,"social_links":1983},"augusto-cury","Augusto Cury",8912,[1912,1943,1982],"Agro y desarrollo regional",{},{"slug":1985,"name":1986,"party":1907,"role":1907,"state":1940,"n_speeches":1987,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1988,"photo_url":1991,"bio_short":1907,"wikidata_id":1992,"mandate_status":1915,"social_links":1993},"kim-kataguiri","Kim Kataguiri",8748,[1989,1912,1990],"Abono Salarial","Activismo judicial","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fkim-kataguiri\u002Fphoto.png","Q21715169",{"twitter":1994},"@KimKataguiri",{"slug":1996,"name":1997,"party":1907,"role":1907,"state":1998,"n_speeches":1999,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":2000,"photo_url":2002,"bio_short":1907,"wikidata_id":2003,"mandate_status":1915,"social_links":2004},"flavio-bolsonaro","Flavio Bolsonaro","RJ",8066,[2001,1912,1924],"Acción de oposición","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fflavio-bolsonaro\u002Fphoto.png","Q10283057",{"twitter":2005},"@FlavioBolsonaro"]