[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"footer-top-topics-en":3,"transcript-eb228df7-563c-4a03-a0a5-5f0ff583c800-en":65,"transcript-poster-eb228df7-563c-4a03-a0a5-5f0ff583c800":1870,"footer-top-speakers-en":1871},{"limit":4,"offset":5,"topics":6,"total":64},10,0,[7,13,19,25,31,36,41,47,53,58],{"label":8,"n_speakers":9,"n_utterances":10,"n_videos":11,"slug":12},"National Security",26,2695,190,"seguranca-nacional",{"label":14,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":16,"n_videos":17,"slug":18},"Education",32,1685,229,"educacao",{"label":20,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":22,"n_videos":23,"slug":24},"Public Safety and Order",23,1580,244,"seguranca-publica-e-ordem",{"label":26,"n_speakers":27,"n_utterances":28,"n_videos":29,"slug":30},"Combating Impunity",33,1469,292,"combate-a-impunidade",{"label":32,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":33,"n_videos":34,"slug":35},"Monetary Policy",1448,303,"politica-monetaria",{"label":37,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":38,"n_videos":39,"slug":40},"Judiciary",846,149,"poder-judiciario",{"label":42,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":44,"n_videos":45,"slug":46},"Public Service",28,788,178,"servico-publico",{"label":48,"n_speakers":49,"n_utterances":50,"n_videos":51,"slug":52},"Public Health \u002F Public Safety",25,756,139,"saude-publica-seguranca-publica",{"label":54,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":55,"n_videos":56,"slug":57},"Social Policy",684,197,"politica-social",{"label":59,"n_speakers":60,"n_utterances":61,"n_videos":62,"slug":63},"Fiscal Reform",22,671,134,"reforma-fiscal",625,{"falas":66,"lang":1858,"meta":1859},[67,76,83,90,97,104,109,115,121,128,135,141,148,154,161,166,172,178,183,188,193,198,204,209,214,219,224,229,235,240,246,252,258,263,268,274,280,286,292,298,304,310,316,321,327,333,339,345,350,356,362,368,374,380,386,392,398,404,410,416,422,428,434,440,446,452,458,464,470,476,482,488,494,500,506,512,518,524,530,536,542,548,554,560,566,572,578,584,590,596,602,608,614,620,626,632,638,644,650,656,662,668,674,680,686,692,698,704,710,716,722,728,734,740,746,752,758,764,770,776,782,788,794,800,806,812,818,824,830,836,842,848,854,860,866,871,877,883,889,895,900,906,912,918,924,930,936,942,948,954,959,965,971,977,983,989,995,1001,1007,1013,1019,1025,1031,1037,1043,1049,1055,1061,1067,1073,1079,1085,1091,1097,1103,1109,1115,1121,1127,1132,1138,1144,1150,1156,1162,1168,1174,1180,1186,1192,1198,1203,1209,1215,1221,1227,1233,1239,1244,1250,1256,1262,1268,1274,1280,1286,1292,1298,1304,1310,1316,1322,1328,1334,1340,1346,1352,1358,1364,1370,1376,1382,1388,1394,1400,1406,1412,1418,1424,1430,1435,1441,1447,1453,1459,1465,1471,1477,1483,1489,1495,1501,1507,1513,1519,1524,1530,1536,1542,1548,1554,1560,1566,1572,1578,1584,1590,1596,1602,1608,1614,1619,1625,1631,1637,1643,1649,1655,1661,1667,1673,1679,1685,1691,1697,1703,1709,1715,1721,1727,1733,1739,1745,1751,1757,1763,1769,1775,1781,1787,1793,1799,1805,1810,1816,1822,1828,1834,1840,1846,1852],{"idx":5,"utterance_id":68,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":71,"start_s":72,"end_s":73,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},"65601","Fernando Haddad","fernando-haddad","My guest today has been a professor and researcher at Fundação Getúlio Vargas since 1989.",11.1,16.72,15,false,{"idx":77,"utterance_id":78,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":79,"start_s":80,"end_s":81,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},1,"65602","Previously, he worked at the Ministry of Planning with João Sayad and at the Ministry of Finance with Dilson Funaro.",17.08,23.32,17,{"idx":84,"utterance_id":85,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":86,"start_s":87,"end_s":88,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},2,"65603","He was a researcher at the Institute of Advanced Studies at USP and the author of several books on economics.",23.9,29.54,16,{"idx":91,"utterance_id":92,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":93,"start_s":94,"end_s":95,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},3,"65604","Good evening, Paulo Nogueira Batista.",30.26,31.56,5,{"idx":98,"utterance_id":99,"speaker_name":100,"text":101,"start_s":102,"end_s":103,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},4,"65605","Desconhecido","Good evening.",31.6,31.9,{"idx":96,"utterance_id":105,"speaker_name":100,"text":106,"start_s":107,"end_s":108,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},"65606","How are you?",31.96,33.22,{"idx":110,"utterance_id":111,"speaker_name":100,"text":112,"start_s":113,"end_s":114,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},6,"65607","Fine, thank you.",33.38,33.88,{"idx":116,"utterance_id":117,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":118,"start_s":119,"end_s":120,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},7,"65608","What is true about what people... commonly think about the IMF?",34.74,41.24,{"idx":122,"utterance_id":123,"speaker_name":100,"text":124,"start_s":125,"end_s":126,"word_count":127,"indexable":75},8,"65609","I noticed, for example, that over the period when I was there, the IMF changed for the better in its macroeconomic assessment.",41.72,50.58,24,{"idx":129,"utterance_id":130,"speaker_name":100,"text":131,"start_s":132,"end_s":133,"word_count":134,"indexable":75},9,"65610","Thanks to the work of some people, for example, I would single out Domenico Stauskarn, who was managing director of the IMF, the number one in the administration, the former French presidential candidate, a socialist, who was an open-minded person with a certain Keynesian background.",50.94,67.46,42,{"idx":4,"utterance_id":136,"speaker_name":100,"text":137,"start_s":138,"end_s":139,"word_count":140,"indexable":75},"65611","And he brought in as chief economist Olivier Blanchard, who is a great macroeconomist, a neo‑Keynesian, flexibly open as well.",68.34,78.9,18,{"idx":142,"utterance_id":143,"speaker_name":100,"text":144,"start_s":145,"end_s":146,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},11,"65612","And also with the work of some chairs — the Brazilian, the Russian, the Indian.",79.64,84.14,14,{"idx":149,"utterance_id":150,"speaker_name":100,"text":151,"start_s":152,"end_s":153,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},12,"65613","We opened up the IMF's thinking.",85.14,87.34,{"idx":155,"utterance_id":156,"speaker_name":100,"text":157,"start_s":158,"end_s":159,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},13,"65614","So much so that I'll tell you that I think that today, even with a certain rollback that happened after the departure of Dominique Strauss‑Kahn and Olivier Blanchard, and the normalization of the crisis — the crisis eased — that caused a certain rollback.",87.9,103.52,41,{"idx":147,"utterance_id":162,"speaker_name":100,"text":163,"start_s":164,"end_s":165,"word_count":27,"indexable":75},"65615","But even with this rollback in the Fund's intellectual reforms, I would say that the Fund's economic thinking today is more advanced than what passes for economic orthodoxy in Brazil.",103.56,115.24,{"idx":74,"utterance_id":167,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":168,"start_s":169,"end_s":170,"word_count":171,"indexable":75},"65616","So, the IMF today would be a good influence on Brazilian economists, is that what you're saying?",117.48,123.8,19,{"idx":89,"utterance_id":173,"speaker_name":100,"text":174,"start_s":175,"end_s":176,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},"65617","It would be; it would be good for many Brazilian economists to read the studies and research that the Fund produces, because they are often interesting.",123.86,131.22,20,{"idx":82,"utterance_id":179,"speaker_name":100,"text":180,"start_s":181,"end_s":182,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},"65618","Now, having said that, I don't want to paint a picture of the IMF as a wonder, no, not at all.",131.56,136.2,{"idx":140,"utterance_id":184,"speaker_name":100,"text":185,"start_s":186,"end_s":187,"word_count":140,"indexable":75},"65619","The IMF is a government‑governed entity, its governance is unbalanced; we made an effort to improve that governance.",136.78,143.54,{"idx":171,"utterance_id":189,"speaker_name":100,"text":190,"start_s":191,"end_s":192,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},"65620","to increase the representation of emerging countries in the Fund, but that effort was only partially successful.",144.38,150.18,{"idx":177,"utterance_id":194,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":195,"start_s":196,"end_s":197,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},"65621","And there ends up being an imposition of an agenda that aligns with the interests of those countries, you see?",150.6,157.18,{"idx":199,"utterance_id":200,"speaker_name":100,"text":201,"start_s":202,"end_s":203,"word_count":15,"indexable":75},21,"65622","Yes, and it's mixed — the International Monetary Fund is both a technical and a political entity, and it's not uncommon for it to be used to advance the bilateral agendas of the dominant countries.",157.24,167.8,{"idx":60,"utterance_id":205,"speaker_name":100,"text":206,"start_s":207,"end_s":208,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},"65623","Hence the reluctance of common opinion, what you called common opinion, regarding the Fund, is justified.",169.32,174.7,{"idx":21,"utterance_id":210,"speaker_name":100,"text":211,"start_s":212,"end_s":213,"word_count":140,"indexable":75},"65624","Because in the process of negotiating an agreement with the Fund, pure influences are frequently present as well.",174.88,182.14,{"idx":127,"utterance_id":215,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":216,"start_s":217,"end_s":218,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},"65625","That is, it is very important not to owe the Fund, because that can represent a very large loss of sovereignty.",182.64,189.14,{"idx":49,"utterance_id":220,"speaker_name":100,"text":221,"start_s":222,"end_s":223,"word_count":171,"indexable":75},"65626","That is why Brazil made a successful effort to accumulate reserves, which began in 2005, 2006.",189.28,193.8,{"idx":9,"utterance_id":225,"speaker_name":100,"text":226,"start_s":227,"end_s":228,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},"65627","In 2006, more strongly.",193.9,196.3,{"idx":230,"utterance_id":231,"speaker_name":100,"text":232,"start_s":233,"end_s":234,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},27,"65628","In 2006, more strongly with Manter, when Manter entered the Ministry of Finance.",196.34,199.84,{"idx":43,"utterance_id":236,"speaker_name":100,"text":237,"start_s":238,"end_s":239,"word_count":140,"indexable":75},"65629","And today we have high reserves, which gives Brazil a protection that other countries do not have.",200.52,205.28,{"idx":241,"utterance_id":242,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":243,"start_s":244,"end_s":245,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},29,"65630","And regarding China?",206.56,208.9,{"idx":247,"utterance_id":248,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":249,"start_s":250,"end_s":251,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},30,"65631","You later moved to China.",209.62,211.86,{"idx":253,"utterance_id":254,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":255,"start_s":256,"end_s":257,"word_count":127,"indexable":75},31,"65632","The BRICS Bank is a development of the BRICS themselves, that group of developing countries that have robust economies, so to speak.",212.84,224.06,{"idx":15,"utterance_id":259,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":260,"start_s":261,"end_s":262,"word_count":241,"indexable":75},"65633","And they not only tried to coordinate, but are trying to create mechanisms that are not exactly those inherited from the post‑war period, such as the well‑known multilateral organizations, the World Bank, the IMF.",224.94,240.8,{"idx":27,"utterance_id":264,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":265,"start_s":266,"end_s":267,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},"65634","Trying to create a pole to ensure an external counterbalance, so to speak.",241.3,247.26,{"idx":269,"utterance_id":270,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":271,"start_s":272,"end_s":273,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},34,"65635","You tried to achieve a balance from within, and now a balance from the outside is being attempted.",247.3,252.22,{"idx":275,"utterance_id":276,"speaker_name":100,"text":277,"start_s":278,"end_s":279,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},35,"65636","Exactly.",252.3,252.9,{"idx":281,"utterance_id":282,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":283,"start_s":284,"end_s":285,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},36,"65637","Will that... Will that have any traction?",253.06,255.8,{"idx":287,"utterance_id":288,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":289,"start_s":290,"end_s":291,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},37,"65638","Do you think it will gain momentum?",256.18,257.94,{"idx":293,"utterance_id":294,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":295,"start_s":296,"end_s":297,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},38,"65639","Or does the fact that Brazil is in this situation of ambiguity harm the development of these ideas?",258.2,265.1,{"idx":299,"utterance_id":300,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":301,"start_s":302,"end_s":303,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},39,"65640","It does.",265.52,266.08,{"idx":305,"utterance_id":306,"speaker_name":100,"text":307,"start_s":308,"end_s":309,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},40,"65641","This issue you now raise is connected to the previous one.",266.3,268.58,{"idx":160,"utterance_id":311,"speaker_name":100,"text":312,"start_s":313,"end_s":314,"word_count":315,"indexable":75},"65642","If the Bretton Woods institutions, the IMF and the World Bank, had shown themselves more open to change, as the BRICS wanted, as Brazil wanted, I tell you for certain — I was inside — we would not have moved in the direction of creating our own mechanisms.",271.12,288.04,47,{"idx":134,"utterance_id":317,"speaker_name":100,"text":318,"start_s":319,"end_s":320,"word_count":230,"indexable":75},"65643","That was a decision made by the BRICS from 2012 onwards, which resulted from our disappointment with the slowness of the process of change of the entities in Washington.",288.58,300.12,{"idx":322,"utterance_id":323,"speaker_name":100,"text":324,"start_s":325,"end_s":326,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},43,"65644","So we decided to create, and a development bank was created, to which I would end up going, in Shanghai, a new development bank.",300.74,307.66,{"idx":328,"utterance_id":329,"speaker_name":100,"text":330,"start_s":331,"end_s":332,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},44,"65645","Which Brazil will preside over.",307.7,308.68,{"idx":334,"utterance_id":335,"speaker_name":100,"text":336,"start_s":337,"end_s":338,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},45,"65646","Brazil will preside from July 2020; that's an important point.",309.48,312.98,{"idx":340,"utterance_id":341,"speaker_name":100,"text":342,"start_s":343,"end_s":344,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},46,"65647","And a mechanism for sharing reserves was also created, a monetary reserve fund.",313.38,319.52,{"idx":315,"utterance_id":346,"speaker_name":100,"text":347,"start_s":348,"end_s":349,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},"65648","Brazil has a very important role in both negotiations.",320.38,322.86,{"idx":351,"utterance_id":352,"speaker_name":100,"text":353,"start_s":354,"end_s":355,"word_count":247,"indexable":75},48,"65649","I would even say that Brazil during the Dilma period, since it was already the Dilma government at that time, largely led both negotiations, especially that of the monetary fund.",322.92,333.42,{"idx":357,"utterance_id":358,"speaker_name":100,"text":359,"start_s":360,"end_s":361,"word_count":287,"indexable":75},49,"65650","And not by chance it was at the BRICS summit in Fortaleza, the summit five years ago, presided over by Dilma, that the treaties for the creation of the BRICS Monetary Fund and the New Development Bank were signed.",334.76,347.02,{"idx":363,"utterance_id":364,"speaker_name":100,"text":365,"start_s":366,"end_s":367,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},50,"65651","So these entities exist, they are established.",348.32,351.06,{"idx":369,"utterance_id":370,"speaker_name":100,"text":371,"start_s":372,"end_s":373,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},51,"65652","Unfortunately, however, the Brazilian engine is lacking.",352.28,356.76,{"idx":375,"utterance_id":376,"speaker_name":100,"text":377,"start_s":378,"end_s":379,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},52,"65653","When Brazil fades...",357.28,358.2,{"idx":381,"utterance_id":382,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":383,"start_s":384,"end_s":385,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},53,"65654","The Brazilian turbine is...",358.24,359.44,{"idx":387,"utterance_id":388,"speaker_name":100,"text":389,"start_s":390,"end_s":391,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},54,"65655","It has been varied since 2015, in reality.",359.9,362.52,{"idx":393,"utterance_id":394,"speaker_name":100,"text":395,"start_s":396,"end_s":397,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},55,"65656","But aggravated now, possibly?",363.22,365.24,{"idx":399,"utterance_id":400,"speaker_name":100,"text":401,"start_s":402,"end_s":403,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},56,"65657","Aggravated — I would say aggravated, yes, because... Let's see if it improves, but under the Temer and Bolsonaro governments the malfunction of the Brazil engine in the BRICS worsened.",365.64,376,{"idx":405,"utterance_id":406,"speaker_name":100,"text":407,"start_s":408,"end_s":409,"word_count":253,"indexable":75},57,"65658","Thus, both the BRICS Monetary Fund and the New Development Bank suffered from the absence of a stronger presence, the lack of a stronger presence from Brazil.",376.72,386.06,{"idx":411,"utterance_id":412,"speaker_name":100,"text":413,"start_s":414,"end_s":415,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},58,"65659","Can that change?",387.2,387.78,{"idx":417,"utterance_id":418,"speaker_name":100,"text":419,"start_s":420,"end_s":421,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},59,"65660","It can.",387.92,388.24,{"idx":423,"utterance_id":424,"speaker_name":100,"text":425,"start_s":426,"end_s":427,"word_count":357,"indexable":75},60,"65661","We also cannot entirely rule out that the current government, although it has committed enormous mistakes in several areas, will now evolve toward a... For example, you mentioned, it is very important for the New Development Bank who will be the bank's president, who will be appointed by Brazil.",388.98,406.06,{"idx":429,"utterance_id":430,"speaker_name":100,"text":431,"start_s":432,"end_s":433,"word_count":140,"indexable":75},61,"65662","We negotiated this in Fortaleza, that India would appoint the first president and Brazil would appoint the second.",406.82,411.24,{"idx":435,"utterance_id":436,"speaker_name":100,"text":437,"start_s":438,"end_s":439,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},62,"65663","So let's see whom the government will appoint.",412.36,414.46,{"idx":441,"utterance_id":442,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":443,"start_s":444,"end_s":445,"word_count":357,"indexable":75},63,"65664","Today the Brazilian government seems to be between two equally uncomfortable options: serving one master, in this case the Americans, or serving two, which may be as bad as the first alternative, instead of choosing not to serve any interests other than national ones.",414.86,435.12,{"idx":447,"utterance_id":448,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":449,"start_s":450,"end_s":451,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},64,"65665","Don't you think that this lack of direction in the Brazilian government's foreign policy is one of the reasons why the Brazilian turbine ends up losing power?",435.48,444.62,{"idx":453,"utterance_id":454,"speaker_name":100,"text":455,"start_s":456,"end_s":457,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},65,"65666","Without a doubt.",445.02,445.52,{"idx":459,"utterance_id":460,"speaker_name":100,"text":461,"start_s":462,"end_s":463,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},66,"65667","This lack of direction in foreign policy worsened considerably under the Bolsonaro government.",446.94,451.6,{"idx":465,"utterance_id":466,"speaker_name":100,"text":467,"start_s":468,"end_s":469,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},67,"65668","Foreign policy in the broad sense, including external economic policy, not just Itamaraty's.",452.24,457.56,{"idx":471,"utterance_id":472,"speaker_name":100,"text":473,"start_s":474,"end_s":475,"word_count":305,"indexable":75},68,"65669","And you noticed the following: again, I think the penny began to drop, but in the first, say, nine or ten months of the government, there was an idea that we would build, that Bolsonaro would build, a special relationship with Trump.",458.64,473.62,{"idx":477,"utterance_id":478,"speaker_name":100,"text":479,"start_s":480,"end_s":481,"word_count":199,"indexable":75},69,"65670","And he began to make a series of unilateral concessions and displays, sometimes even humiliating, shameful ones, of alignment with the Trump administration.",474.96,486.48,{"idx":483,"utterance_id":484,"speaker_name":100,"text":485,"start_s":486,"end_s":487,"word_count":281,"indexable":75},70,"65671","And what happened, in my view, in my reading, is that, over time, it became perfectly clear that these unilateral concessions, these displays of affection and adherence, were not receiving any reciprocation.",487.58,500.76,{"idx":489,"utterance_id":490,"speaker_name":100,"text":491,"start_s":492,"end_s":493,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},71,"65672","None.",502.44,502.78,{"idx":495,"utterance_id":496,"speaker_name":100,"text":497,"start_s":498,"end_s":499,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},72,"65673","In any area.",503.6,504.14,{"idx":501,"utterance_id":502,"speaker_name":100,"text":503,"start_s":504,"end_s":505,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},73,"65674","One could even, if one wanted, recap the concessions that were made and the disappointments that occurred, but they are there for all to see; it was widely reported.",504.72,510.92,{"idx":507,"utterance_id":508,"speaker_name":100,"text":509,"start_s":510,"end_s":511,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},74,"65675","You might ask, is the penny dropping?",510.98,513.7,{"idx":513,"utterance_id":514,"speaker_name":100,"text":515,"start_s":516,"end_s":517,"word_count":287,"indexable":75},75,"65676","It is, because the Bolsonaro government abandoned that gratuitous hostility it had been showing during the campaign and even in government toward China and moved toward an approach, a normalization of the relationship with China.",513.76,528.12,{"idx":519,"utterance_id":520,"speaker_name":100,"text":521,"start_s":522,"end_s":523,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},76,"65677","The first vice president went there, Mourão, then the president himself visited China, and now at the BRICS summit.",528.88,534.3,{"idx":525,"utterance_id":526,"speaker_name":100,"text":527,"start_s":528,"end_s":529,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},77,"65678","There was a new rapprochement.",534.96,536.44,{"idx":531,"utterance_id":532,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":533,"start_s":534,"end_s":535,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},78,"65679","Before that he made a cheap provocation toward Taiwan, showing sympathy for Taiwan.",536.92,542.44,{"idx":537,"utterance_id":538,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":539,"start_s":540,"end_s":541,"word_count":142,"indexable":75},79,"65680","Something that already caused discomfort because of the amateurishness.",543.34,548.3,{"idx":543,"utterance_id":544,"speaker_name":100,"text":545,"start_s":546,"end_s":547,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},80,"65681","That was in 2018, when he was a pre-candidate, already with strong voting intentions.",548.82,553.36,{"idx":549,"utterance_id":550,"speaker_name":100,"text":551,"start_s":552,"end_s":553,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},81,"65682","And he went there to visit Taiwan.",554.12,555.38,{"idx":555,"utterance_id":556,"speaker_name":100,"text":557,"start_s":558,"end_s":559,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},82,"65683","Well, I always say when I'm asked about this: you can visit Taiwan.",556.18,559.12,{"idx":561,"utterance_id":562,"speaker_name":100,"text":563,"start_s":564,"end_s":565,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},83,"65684","Of course.",559.26,559.58,{"idx":567,"utterance_id":568,"speaker_name":100,"text":569,"start_s":570,"end_s":571,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},84,"65685","But you need to know why you are doing it.",559.9,562.36,{"idx":573,"utterance_id":574,"speaker_name":100,"text":575,"start_s":576,"end_s":577,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},85,"65686","Not as a bravado, right?",563.3,564.38,{"idx":579,"utterance_id":580,"speaker_name":100,"text":581,"start_s":582,"end_s":583,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},86,"65687","Because that is seen as extremely serious by the Chinese.",564.58,568,{"idx":585,"utterance_id":586,"speaker_name":100,"text":587,"start_s":588,"end_s":589,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},87,"65688","Trump, being Trump, accepted a phone call from Taiwan's prime minister and it was an upheaval, a problem in United States–China relations.",569.08,579.84,{"idx":591,"utterance_id":592,"speaker_name":100,"text":593,"start_s":594,"end_s":595,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},88,"65689","So it was a very amateurish decision, in my view, to visit Taiwan without knowing why, without assessing the consequences.",580.58,589.12,{"idx":597,"utterance_id":598,"speaker_name":100,"text":599,"start_s":600,"end_s":601,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},89,"65690","But since then... The government keeps learning, keeps learning, the penny keeps dropping.",589.74,594.2,{"idx":603,"utterance_id":604,"speaker_name":100,"text":605,"start_s":606,"end_s":607,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},90,"65691","And I would tell you the following...",595.1,595.98,{"idx":609,"utterance_id":610,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":611,"start_s":612,"end_s":613,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},91,"65692","It learns on one side and unlearns on another, as we have seen.",596.02,599.16,{"idx":615,"utterance_id":616,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":617,"start_s":618,"end_s":619,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},92,"65693","But anyway, let's talk about that side.",599.38,600.82,{"idx":621,"utterance_id":622,"speaker_name":100,"text":623,"start_s":624,"end_s":625,"word_count":134,"indexable":75},93,"65694","At least in that respect, I think it became clear, I hope it became clear that... Look, I needed 11 months, not 10 months, because anyone who knows... I lived for eight years in the United States, I even say that in my book.",600.86,614.9,{"idx":627,"utterance_id":628,"speaker_name":100,"text":629,"start_s":630,"end_s":631,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},94,"65695","What did I notice, among other things?",615.46,617.2,{"idx":633,"utterance_id":634,"speaker_name":100,"text":635,"start_s":636,"end_s":637,"word_count":142,"indexable":75},95,"65696","The Americans treat their satellites with indifference and even contempt.",617.96,623.58,{"idx":639,"utterance_id":640,"speaker_name":100,"text":641,"start_s":642,"end_s":643,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},96,"65697","I saw that at the International Monetary Fund, I saw it at the G20.",623.88,625.5,{"idx":645,"utterance_id":646,"speaker_name":100,"text":647,"start_s":648,"end_s":649,"word_count":140,"indexable":75},97,"65698","I don't want to name countries so as not to offend anyone, but Brazil at that time was not like that.",626.76,630.52,{"idx":651,"utterance_id":652,"speaker_name":100,"text":653,"start_s":654,"end_s":655,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},98,"65699","And I observed the American relationship with its satellites.",631.2,633.68,{"idx":657,"utterance_id":658,"speaker_name":100,"text":659,"start_s":660,"end_s":661,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},99,"65700","Including some developed countries that behave as American satellites.",633.76,637.3,{"idx":663,"utterance_id":664,"speaker_name":100,"text":665,"start_s":666,"end_s":667,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},100,"65701","So, when I saw...",637.38,639.58,{"idx":669,"utterance_id":670,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":671,"start_s":672,"end_s":673,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},101,"65702","Actually, you pay attention to who causes you problems.",639.86,642.3,{"idx":675,"utterance_id":676,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":677,"start_s":678,"end_s":679,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},102,"65703","If a country doesn't cause any problem.",643.32,646.02,{"idx":681,"utterance_id":682,"speaker_name":100,"text":683,"start_s":684,"end_s":685,"word_count":15,"indexable":75},103,"65704","I'll tell you more: it's not only the Americans who don't pay attention; other countries disregard the opinions of countries that are seen as aligned with the United States or China.",647.3,657.14,{"idx":687,"utterance_id":688,"speaker_name":100,"text":689,"start_s":690,"end_s":691,"word_count":199,"indexable":75},104,"65705","So Brazil only had an active voice on several matters because it was seen as an independent actor until recently.",658.46,665.38,{"idx":693,"utterance_id":694,"speaker_name":100,"text":695,"start_s":696,"end_s":697,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},105,"65706","So let's see, but I also think you're right in the following: you put it well, the person will now want to... move toward China, but the way he moves toward China is also clumsy.",666.22,678.48,{"idx":699,"utterance_id":700,"speaker_name":100,"text":701,"start_s":702,"end_s":703,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},106,"65707","Because he stays, for example, at the BRICS summit, repeatedly thanking China for having respected Brazilian sovereignty on the Amazon issue.",679.24,687.26,{"idx":705,"utterance_id":706,"speaker_name":100,"text":707,"start_s":708,"end_s":709,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},107,"65708","In that controversy with Macron, with France.",687.7,691.52,{"idx":711,"utterance_id":712,"speaker_name":100,"text":713,"start_s":714,"end_s":715,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},108,"65709","This is basic: that important countries like Brazil have their sovereignty respected.",693.56,698.66,{"idx":717,"utterance_id":718,"speaker_name":100,"text":719,"start_s":720,"end_s":721,"word_count":247,"indexable":75},109,"65710","So even in the way he gets closer to China, he shows... What you said: it's not about going from alignment with the United States to alignment with China.",699.18,706.3,{"idx":723,"utterance_id":724,"speaker_name":100,"text":725,"start_s":726,"end_s":727,"word_count":322,"indexable":75},110,"65711","It's about not aligning with anyone, because Brazil has a size, it's a country of such importance that the rest of the world is even surprised when it sees Brazil automatically aligning with another country, whether China or the United States.",706.86,718.54,{"idx":729,"utterance_id":730,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":731,"start_s":732,"end_s":733,"word_count":171,"indexable":75},111,"65712","Precisely because independence is an asset in the international market, let's say, politically and economically.",719.14,725.14,{"idx":735,"utterance_id":736,"speaker_name":100,"text":737,"start_s":738,"end_s":739,"word_count":299,"indexable":75},112,"65713","One very important thing — which is why I chose this title in my book, Brazil doesn't fit in anyone's backyard — Brazilians forget that Brazil is part of a list, of a group of only five countries.",725.78,735.64,{"idx":741,"utterance_id":742,"speaker_name":100,"text":743,"start_s":744,"end_s":745,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},113,"65714","Only five countries in the entire world simultaneously belong to the lists of the ten largest GDPs, the ten largest territories, and the ten largest populations.",736.46,744.6,{"idx":747,"utterance_id":748,"speaker_name":100,"text":749,"start_s":750,"end_s":751,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},114,"65715","Those five countries are the United States, Brazil, Russia, India, and China.",745.22,747.66,{"idx":753,"utterance_id":754,"speaker_name":100,"text":755,"start_s":756,"end_s":757,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},115,"65716","So Brazil is one of the giants of the world and cannot behave as if it were a small country.",748.44,754.58,{"idx":759,"utterance_id":760,"speaker_name":100,"text":761,"start_s":762,"end_s":763,"word_count":199,"indexable":75},116,"65717","It voted now, for example — how can Brazil vote against the UN resolution condemning the embargo on Cuba?",755.52,762.24,{"idx":765,"utterance_id":766,"speaker_name":100,"text":767,"start_s":768,"end_s":769,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},117,"65718","187 countries voted in favor, two abstained, Colombia and Ukraine, and three voted against.",762.26,770,{"idx":771,"utterance_id":772,"speaker_name":100,"text":773,"start_s":774,"end_s":775,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},118,"65719","The United States, of course, Israel, which depends structurally on the United States, including budgetary and political terms, and Brazil, gratuitously.",770.58,778.44,{"idx":777,"utterance_id":778,"speaker_name":100,"text":779,"start_s":780,"end_s":781,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},119,"65720","Micronesia voted in favor of the resolution.",780.8,783.34,{"idx":783,"utterance_id":784,"speaker_name":100,"text":785,"start_s":786,"end_s":787,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},120,"65721","Palau voted in favor of the resolution.",783.52,785.24,{"idx":789,"utterance_id":790,"speaker_name":100,"text":791,"start_s":792,"end_s":793,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},121,"65722","Vanuatu voted in favor of the resolution.",786.16,787.96,{"idx":795,"utterance_id":796,"speaker_name":100,"text":797,"start_s":798,"end_s":799,"word_count":287,"indexable":75},122,"65723","But how can Brazil, one of the giants of the world, align itself gratuitously with an odious decision condemned by a broad majority of the international community, namely this embargo, which has worsened, including in the recent past, toward Cuba.",788.14,799.8,{"idx":801,"utterance_id":802,"speaker_name":100,"text":803,"start_s":804,"end_s":805,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},123,"65724","It has worsened a lot.",800.22,801.02,{"idx":807,"utterance_id":808,"speaker_name":100,"text":809,"start_s":810,"end_s":811,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},124,"65725","A lot.",801.1,801.46,{"idx":813,"utterance_id":814,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":815,"start_s":816,"end_s":817,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},125,"65726","Under Trump it worsened excessively.",801.86,803.16,{"idx":819,"utterance_id":820,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":821,"start_s":822,"end_s":823,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},126,"65727","They invoked a chapter of the embargo law that had never been activated.",803.7,808.74,{"idx":825,"utterance_id":826,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":827,"start_s":828,"end_s":829,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},127,"65728","In other words, they intensified the embargo, even relative to the original measures against Cuba.",810.66,819.16,{"idx":831,"utterance_id":832,"speaker_name":100,"text":833,"start_s":834,"end_s":835,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},128,"65729","So, the situation got much worse.",819.34,820.84,{"idx":837,"utterance_id":838,"speaker_name":100,"text":839,"start_s":840,"end_s":841,"word_count":142,"indexable":75},129,"65730","This has nothing to do with ideological sympathies for Cuba.",820.88,823.62,{"idx":843,"utterance_id":844,"speaker_name":100,"text":845,"start_s":846,"end_s":847,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},130,"65731","187 countries of the most varied tendencies condemned the embargo.",823.64,827.82,{"idx":849,"utterance_id":850,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":851,"start_s":852,"end_s":853,"word_count":142,"indexable":75},131,"65732","Brazil can do without Mercosur, it can do without regional pacts.",829.06,835.8,{"idx":855,"utterance_id":856,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":857,"start_s":858,"end_s":859,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},132,"65733","Does it have the size to do without that?",836.6,838.62,{"idx":861,"utterance_id":862,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":863,"start_s":864,"end_s":865,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},133,"65734","Or do you think that would require us to reflect on integration in new forms?",839.3,845.28,{"idx":62,"utterance_id":867,"speaker_name":100,"text":868,"start_s":869,"end_s":870,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},"65735","Brazil is so big that it could, in the limit, do without that.",845.66,848.46,{"idx":872,"utterance_id":873,"speaker_name":100,"text":874,"start_s":875,"end_s":876,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},135,"65736","But there is no reason to do without it.",848.72,850.12,{"idx":878,"utterance_id":879,"speaker_name":100,"text":880,"start_s":881,"end_s":882,"word_count":322,"indexable":75},136,"65737","Under the Lula government — and actually even before, but it deepened under Lula and continued under Dilma — there was an entire effort to create an environment of unity in South America primarily, but also in Latin America more generally.",851.96,868.58,{"idx":884,"utterance_id":885,"speaker_name":100,"text":886,"start_s":887,"end_s":888,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},137,"65738","And that effort was important.",869.68,871.42,{"idx":890,"utterance_id":891,"speaker_name":100,"text":892,"start_s":893,"end_s":894,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},138,"65739","It's not easy, you know, Fernando?",871.46,872.82,{"idx":51,"utterance_id":896,"speaker_name":100,"text":897,"start_s":898,"end_s":899,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},"65740","Because I used to say, back when Lula was president, quietly, that if Lula was the leader of Latin America, he was a leader with few followers, because nobody followed Lula's model of international policy.",872.88,887,{"idx":901,"utterance_id":902,"speaker_name":100,"text":903,"start_s":904,"end_s":905,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},140,"65741","That's true.",887.06,887.42,{"idx":907,"utterance_id":908,"speaker_name":100,"text":909,"start_s":910,"end_s":911,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},141,"65742","Which was a centrist, reformist model.",887.72,889.66,{"idx":913,"utterance_id":914,"speaker_name":100,"text":915,"start_s":916,"end_s":917,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},142,"65743","You had two groups of countries in Latin America: the satellites of the United States.",890.1,894.2,{"idx":919,"utterance_id":920,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":921,"start_s":922,"end_s":923,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},143,"65744","Automatically aligned.",894.78,896.28,{"idx":925,"utterance_id":926,"speaker_name":100,"text":927,"start_s":928,"end_s":929,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},144,"65745","And the Bolivarian ones.",896.4,897.38,{"idx":931,"utterance_id":932,"speaker_name":100,"text":933,"start_s":934,"end_s":935,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},145,"65746","Automatically non-aligned.",898.08,899.58,{"idx":937,"utterance_id":938,"speaker_name":100,"text":939,"start_s":940,"end_s":941,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},146,"65747","A counterproductive rhetoric — the Bolivians and the Kirchnerists.",900.22,904.18,{"idx":943,"utterance_id":944,"speaker_name":100,"text":945,"start_s":946,"end_s":947,"word_count":275,"indexable":75},147,"65748","Brazil is big, yes, it can do without regional alliances when necessary, but it will maximize its capacity to defend national interests and to act for a better world if it acts in alliance.",904.74,918.38,{"idx":949,"utterance_id":950,"speaker_name":100,"text":951,"start_s":952,"end_s":953,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},148,"65749","And we know how to do that.",918.42,919.58,{"idx":39,"utterance_id":955,"speaker_name":100,"text":956,"start_s":957,"end_s":958,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},"65750","We have one of the best diplomatic services in the world, which is Itamaraty.",920.36,924.06,{"idx":960,"utterance_id":961,"speaker_name":100,"text":962,"start_s":963,"end_s":964,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},150,"65751","We have a tradition.",924.14,924.98,{"idx":966,"utterance_id":967,"speaker_name":100,"text":968,"start_s":969,"end_s":970,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},151,"65752","So Brazil has a... It must have a focus on alliances in South America and in Latin America.",925.68,931.38,{"idx":972,"utterance_id":973,"speaker_name":100,"text":974,"start_s":975,"end_s":976,"word_count":142,"indexable":75},152,"65753","There is a lot of room to operate in Central America and the Caribbean as well.",932.12,935.42,{"idx":978,"utterance_id":979,"speaker_name":100,"text":980,"start_s":981,"end_s":982,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},153,"65754","Is there space?",936.14,936.68,{"idx":984,"utterance_id":985,"speaker_name":100,"text":986,"start_s":987,"end_s":988,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},154,"65755","There is; I noticed that at the International Monetary Fund.",936.8,938.52,{"idx":990,"utterance_id":991,"speaker_name":100,"text":992,"start_s":993,"end_s":994,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},155,"65756","Something that is not very much our tradition.",939,940.76,{"idx":996,"utterance_id":997,"speaker_name":100,"text":998,"start_s":999,"end_s":1000,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},156,"65757","It's not, but there is.",940.86,941.64,{"idx":1002,"utterance_id":1003,"speaker_name":100,"text":1004,"start_s":1005,"end_s":1006,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},157,"65758","Brazil has an enormous reach.",942.1,944.92,{"idx":1008,"utterance_id":1009,"speaker_name":100,"text":1010,"start_s":1011,"end_s":1012,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},158,"65759","Mexico has now evolved into a center-left government.",945.3,947.74,{"idx":1014,"utterance_id":1015,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1016,"start_s":1017,"end_s":1018,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},159,"65760","And do you think that Mexico — should we have our radar tuned to Mexico as well?",947.88,951.42,{"idx":1020,"utterance_id":1021,"speaker_name":100,"text":1022,"start_s":1023,"end_s":1024,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},160,"65761","Look, Mexico is...",951.74,952.52,{"idx":1026,"utterance_id":1027,"speaker_name":100,"text":1028,"start_s":1029,"end_s":1030,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},161,"65762","Because Mexico is...",952.64,953.22,{"idx":1032,"utterance_id":1033,"speaker_name":100,"text":1034,"start_s":1035,"end_s":1036,"word_count":287,"indexable":75},162,"65763","My experience with Mexicans was not the best during the period I was there, but two very important things happened after I left Mexico that I think, perhaps, change your view of Mexico.",954.04,968.58,{"idx":1038,"utterance_id":1039,"speaker_name":100,"text":1040,"start_s":1041,"end_s":1042,"word_count":15,"indexable":75},163,"65764","The election of Trump in the United States, with truculent attitudes that show the danger of Mexico's long-standing automatic alignment option, and the election of López Obrador.",968.64,983,{"idx":1044,"utterance_id":1045,"speaker_name":100,"text":1046,"start_s":1047,"end_s":1048,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},164,"65765","So I think there's a space there.",983.42,984.9,{"idx":1050,"utterance_id":1051,"speaker_name":100,"text":1052,"start_s":1053,"end_s":1054,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},165,"65766","But also in Africa.",985.48,987.7,{"idx":1056,"utterance_id":1057,"speaker_name":100,"text":1058,"start_s":1059,"end_s":1060,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},166,"65767","Africa looks to Brazil with great interest.",987.8,990.84,{"idx":1062,"utterance_id":1063,"speaker_name":100,"text":1064,"start_s":1065,"end_s":1066,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},167,"65768","And there's competition.",993.9,994.34,{"idx":1068,"utterance_id":1069,"speaker_name":100,"text":1070,"start_s":1071,"end_s":1072,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},168,"65769","So I would tell you that Brazil has to act simultaneously on several fronts.",995.54,999.28,{"idx":1074,"utterance_id":1075,"speaker_name":100,"text":1076,"start_s":1077,"end_s":1078,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},169,"65770","And it must have a good relationship with Europe, with the United States, and so on.",1000.56,1003.1,{"idx":1080,"utterance_id":1081,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1082,"start_s":1083,"end_s":1084,"word_count":247,"indexable":75},170,"65771","That is, looking to equals, both in Africa and in the Middle East, and possibly in Latin America, is far from... third-worldism; that is characteristic of an inferiority complex.",1003.32,1016.78,{"idx":1086,"utterance_id":1087,"speaker_name":100,"text":1088,"start_s":1089,"end_s":1090,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},171,"65772","It is not third-worldism.",1016.86,1018.36,{"idx":1092,"utterance_id":1093,"speaker_name":100,"text":1094,"start_s":1095,"end_s":1096,"word_count":199,"indexable":75},172,"65773","Brazil has to have a global role commensurate with its size and with what is expected of Brazil.",1019.66,1026.3,{"idx":1098,"utterance_id":1099,"speaker_name":100,"text":1100,"start_s":1101,"end_s":1102,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},173,"65774","What is happening today, in my view, is causing bewilderment in the rest of the world.",1028,1032.58,{"idx":1104,"utterance_id":1105,"speaker_name":100,"text":1106,"start_s":1107,"end_s":1108,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},174,"65775","This is not the Brazil people have gotten used to knowing in recent decades.",1033.3,1036.86,{"idx":1110,"utterance_id":1111,"speaker_name":100,"text":1112,"start_s":1113,"end_s":1114,"word_count":142,"indexable":75},175,"65776","Brazil is a country that radiated conciliation, friendliness, dialogue, peace.",1038.04,1042.56,{"idx":1116,"utterance_id":1117,"speaker_name":100,"text":1118,"start_s":1119,"end_s":1120,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},176,"65777","It was not a country with a strongly ideological foreign policy, contrary to what is said today.",1044.2,1049.56,{"idx":1122,"utterance_id":1123,"speaker_name":100,"text":1124,"start_s":1125,"end_s":1126,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},177,"65778","It was a predominantly pragmatic foreign policy.",1050.2,1052.86,{"idx":45,"utterance_id":1128,"speaker_name":100,"text":1129,"start_s":1130,"end_s":1131,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},"65779","Based on principles and values, but pragmatic.",1054.12,1057.2,{"idx":1133,"utterance_id":1134,"speaker_name":100,"text":1135,"start_s":1136,"end_s":1137,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},179,"65780","For example, Brazil was a friend of Israel and of the Arabs as well.",1058.16,1064.64,{"idx":1139,"utterance_id":1140,"speaker_name":100,"text":1141,"start_s":1142,"end_s":1143,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},180,"65781","It never took sides in that conflict.",1064.74,1066.74,{"idx":1145,"utterance_id":1146,"speaker_name":100,"text":1147,"start_s":1148,"end_s":1149,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},181,"65782","We have populations...",1067,1068.38,{"idx":1151,"utterance_id":1152,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1153,"start_s":1154,"end_s":1155,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},182,"65783","And it never refrained from acting either.",1068.76,1070.14,{"idx":1157,"utterance_id":1158,"speaker_name":100,"text":1159,"start_s":1160,"end_s":1161,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},183,"65784","It never refrained from acting when it had to.",1070.24,1072.34,{"idx":1163,"utterance_id":1164,"speaker_name":100,"text":1165,"start_s":1166,"end_s":1167,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},184,"65785","It acted, but with balance.",1072.38,1074.1,{"idx":1169,"utterance_id":1170,"speaker_name":100,"text":1171,"start_s":1172,"end_s":1173,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},185,"65786","When it had to condemn abuses, for example against the Palestinians, it did so, but without declaring itself hostile to Israel.",1074.14,1080.86,{"idx":1175,"utterance_id":1176,"speaker_name":100,"text":1177,"start_s":1178,"end_s":1179,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},186,"65787","Likewise, it makes no sense to imitate Trump in transferring the embassy.",1081.52,1086.84,{"idx":1181,"utterance_id":1182,"speaker_name":100,"text":1183,"start_s":1184,"end_s":1185,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},187,"65788","to Jerusalem, creating a totally decisive disruption.",1087.46,1089.98,{"idx":1187,"utterance_id":1188,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1189,"start_s":1190,"end_s":1191,"word_count":142,"indexable":75},188,"65789","Again, two or three countries in the world followed that orientation.",1090.02,1092.52,{"idx":1193,"utterance_id":1194,"speaker_name":100,"text":1195,"start_s":1196,"end_s":1197,"word_count":142,"indexable":75},189,"65790","The United States, if I'm not mistaken, Nicaragua and Brazil.",1092.56,1094.78,{"idx":11,"utterance_id":1199,"speaker_name":100,"text":1200,"start_s":1201,"end_s":1202,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},"65791","But then Brazil backtracked, fortunately.",1094.86,1096.74,{"idx":1204,"utterance_id":1205,"speaker_name":100,"text":1206,"start_s":1207,"end_s":1208,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},191,"65792","Bolsonaro backtracked.",1097.8,1098.88,{"idx":1210,"utterance_id":1211,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1212,"start_s":1213,"end_s":1214,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},192,"65793","But he returns to talk, now and then, about the subject.",1098.92,1101.5,{"idx":1216,"utterance_id":1217,"speaker_name":100,"text":1218,"start_s":1219,"end_s":1220,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},193,"65794","Now it became a representation office in Jerusalem.",1101.56,1104.58,{"idx":1222,"utterance_id":1223,"speaker_name":100,"text":1224,"start_s":1225,"end_s":1226,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},194,"65795","But, for now, it abandoned that absurd idea of following the Americans in transferring the embassy to Jerusalem.",1104.76,1112.54,{"idx":1228,"utterance_id":1229,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1230,"start_s":1231,"end_s":1232,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},195,"65796","How genuine is the environmental and human rights agenda on the international stage?",1113.5,1119.68,{"idx":1234,"utterance_id":1235,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1236,"start_s":1237,"end_s":1238,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},196,"65797","How much weight does it actually have?",1120.18,1121.78,{"idx":56,"utterance_id":1240,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1241,"start_s":1242,"end_s":1243,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},"65798","How bold is it in order to torpedo situational adversaries?",1121.96,1128.38,{"idx":1245,"utterance_id":1246,"speaker_name":100,"text":1247,"start_s":1248,"end_s":1249,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},198,"65799","Good question.",1130.48,1131.2,{"idx":1251,"utterance_id":1252,"speaker_name":100,"text":1253,"start_s":1254,"end_s":1255,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},199,"65800","A question that's not easy to answer because there's a mixture there.",1131.62,1134.42,{"idx":1257,"utterance_id":1258,"speaker_name":100,"text":1259,"start_s":1260,"end_s":1261,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},200,"65801","I even use in the book the expression 'politically correct protectionism'.",1135.16,1138.66,{"idx":1263,"utterance_id":1264,"speaker_name":100,"text":1265,"start_s":1266,"end_s":1267,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},201,"65802","Good expression.",1138.74,1141.32,{"idx":1269,"utterance_id":1270,"speaker_name":100,"text":1271,"start_s":1272,"end_s":1273,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},202,"65803","Which is what you're saying, in reality.",1142.38,1144.08,{"idx":1275,"utterance_id":1276,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1277,"start_s":1278,"end_s":1279,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},203,"65804","That's it; it was merely a pretext.",1144.12,1145.98,{"idx":1281,"utterance_id":1282,"speaker_name":100,"text":1283,"start_s":1284,"end_s":1285,"word_count":15,"indexable":75},204,"65805","I think it's an agenda we cannot confront crudely, as the current government has done; we cannot confront this environmentalist and human rights agenda in a clumsy way.",1146.22,1156.1,{"idx":1287,"utterance_id":1288,"speaker_name":100,"text":1289,"start_s":1290,"end_s":1291,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},205,"65806","Obviously, right?",1156.54,1156.92,{"idx":1293,"utterance_id":1294,"speaker_name":100,"text":1295,"start_s":1296,"end_s":1297,"word_count":299,"indexable":75},206,"65807","Because we must respect the fact that there is a real concern in many sectors of society, in other countries, about the environment, about human rights, about the international consequences of what is done in the environmental area.",1157.76,1170.92,{"idx":1299,"utterance_id":1300,"speaker_name":100,"text":1301,"start_s":1302,"end_s":1303,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},207,"65808","The spillovers to other countries—we have to respect them.",1171.66,1174.56,{"idx":1305,"utterance_id":1306,"speaker_name":100,"text":1307,"start_s":1308,"end_s":1309,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},208,"65809","At the same time, we have to be cautious, because that sympathetic discourse is manipulated by interests.",1175.2,1181.98,{"idx":1311,"utterance_id":1312,"speaker_name":100,"text":1313,"start_s":1314,"end_s":1315,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},209,"65810","It is manipulated by economic interests, political interests.",1183.04,1186.64,{"idx":1317,"utterance_id":1318,"speaker_name":100,"text":1319,"start_s":1320,"end_s":1321,"word_count":199,"indexable":75},210,"65811","So, in relation to the multilateral sphere, we must have an open, cooperative attitude, but with skepticism, examining every step.",1187.66,1195.18,{"idx":1323,"utterance_id":1324,"speaker_name":100,"text":1325,"start_s":1326,"end_s":1327,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},211,"65812","That is why I am worried, for example, when I see Bolsonaro's recent speech at the UN.",1195.32,1200.54,{"idx":1329,"utterance_id":1330,"speaker_name":100,"text":1331,"start_s":1332,"end_s":1333,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},212,"65813","He said some truths, some quite important truths.",1201.74,1205.5,{"idx":1335,"utterance_id":1336,"speaker_name":100,"text":1337,"start_s":1338,"end_s":1339,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},213,"65814","The Amazon is not the heritage of humanity.",1206.46,1208.3,{"idx":1341,"utterance_id":1342,"speaker_name":100,"text":1343,"start_s":1344,"end_s":1345,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},214,"65815","The Amazon is not the world's lung.",1208.46,1211.54,{"idx":1347,"utterance_id":1348,"speaker_name":100,"text":1349,"start_s":1350,"end_s":1351,"word_count":293,"indexable":75},215,"65816","But these truths, these important points are mixed with things so crude, so primitive, that my concern is that this contaminates certain central ideas he put forward there, which are valuable and that we have to defend.",1211.76,1224.28,{"idx":1353,"utterance_id":1354,"speaker_name":100,"text":1355,"start_s":1356,"end_s":1357,"word_count":140,"indexable":75},216,"65817","Yes, the Amazon is not the heritage of humanity; it is the patrimony of the countries of the Amazon basin, notably Brazil.",1224.66,1230.8,{"idx":1359,"utterance_id":1360,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1361,"start_s":1362,"end_s":1363,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},217,"65818","Now, that does not mean that, although this serves as a pretext for the politically correct,",1233.84,1243.12,{"idx":1365,"utterance_id":1366,"speaker_name":100,"text":1367,"start_s":1368,"end_s":1369,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},218,"65819","which is, in",1244.28,1245.98,{"idx":1371,"utterance_id":1372,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1373,"start_s":1374,"end_s":1375,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},219,"65820","part, a manipulation, but the declarations of the Brazilian government about the environment, about human rights, for example, we had three 'authorities' of the government,",1246.14,1257.94,{"idx":1377,"utterance_id":1378,"speaker_name":100,"text":1379,"start_s":1380,"end_s":1381,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},220,"65821","the son",1258.12,1258.54,{"idx":1383,"utterance_id":1384,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1385,"start_s":1386,"end_s":1387,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},221,"65822","of the president, the president's 'do-it-all' general, Heleno, and now Guedes talking about AI-5.",1258.58,1266.7,{"idx":1389,"utterance_id":1390,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1391,"start_s":1392,"end_s":1393,"word_count":127,"indexable":75},222,"65823","I think most Brazilians don't even know what AI-5 is, because it's something from... We're talking about something from 1968.",1266.74,1272.94,{"idx":1395,"utterance_id":1396,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1397,"start_s":1398,"end_s":1399,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},223,"65824","But talking about it probably has international repercussions as well.",1275.72,1280.7,{"idx":1401,"utterance_id":1402,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1403,"start_s":1404,"end_s":1405,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},224,"65825","It's not just local.",1281.16,1282.06,{"idx":1407,"utterance_id":1408,"speaker_name":100,"text":1409,"start_s":1410,"end_s":1411,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},225,"65826","No, without a doubt.",1282.5,1283.4,{"idx":1413,"utterance_id":1414,"speaker_name":100,"text":1415,"start_s":1416,"end_s":1417,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},226,"65827","Again, Brazil is a very important country.",1284.08,1285.86,{"idx":1419,"utterance_id":1420,"speaker_name":100,"text":1421,"start_s":1422,"end_s":1423,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},227,"65828","So when the president of the Republic or important ministers say crude, even caricatured things, it resonates.",1286.56,1293.86,{"idx":1425,"utterance_id":1426,"speaker_name":100,"text":1427,"start_s":1428,"end_s":1429,"word_count":369,"indexable":75},228,"65829","It reverberates in the international media, resonates with investors, and projects the image of a country — I don't want to use an exaggerated word — perhaps a country that begins to behave in an ungoverned manner, that attacks notions that are notions of civilization in the 21st century: concern for human rights, for democracy, for the environment.",1294.4,1315.5,{"idx":17,"utterance_id":1431,"speaker_name":100,"text":1432,"start_s":1433,"end_s":1434,"word_count":134,"indexable":75},"65830","So, this Brazilian backward step in these areas, and I don't want to be too negative either, but... it seems that no sector of the government is spared, that there is a media operation, the Brazilian establishment, to create a sanitary cordon around Paulo Guedes.",1316.62,1334.18,{"idx":1436,"utterance_id":1437,"speaker_name":100,"text":1438,"start_s":1439,"end_s":1440,"word_count":269,"indexable":75},230,"65831","There have been attempts to do the same regarding Moro, but neither Paulo Guedes nor Moro help sustain this sanitary cordon and often show their deep affinity with the rest of the government.",1337.12,1347.74,{"idx":1442,"utterance_id":1443,"speaker_name":100,"text":1444,"start_s":1445,"end_s":1446,"word_count":140,"indexable":75},231,"65832","It is no coincidence that Moro is in the government, it is no coincidence that Guedes is in the government.",1348.5,1351.98,{"idx":1448,"utterance_id":1449,"speaker_name":100,"text":1450,"start_s":1451,"end_s":1452,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},232,"65833","They're not mere ornaments there, right?",1352.64,1353.98,{"idx":1454,"utterance_id":1455,"speaker_name":100,"text":1456,"start_s":1457,"end_s":1458,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},233,"65834","No, they are, each in their own way, extremists as well, right?",1354.02,1357.86,{"idx":1460,"utterance_id":1461,"speaker_name":100,"text":1462,"start_s":1463,"end_s":1464,"word_count":142,"indexable":75},234,"65835","Extremists in the area of law, extremists in the area of economics, right?",1358.1,1362.88,{"idx":1466,"utterance_id":1467,"speaker_name":100,"text":1468,"start_s":1469,"end_s":1470,"word_count":140,"indexable":75},235,"65836","And extremism in the area of economics — ultraliberalism, market fundamentalism — has historically been associated with dictatorial movements.",1363.56,1372,{"idx":1472,"utterance_id":1473,"speaker_name":100,"text":1474,"start_s":1475,"end_s":1476,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},236,"65837","We know that, don't we?",1372.44,1374.62,{"idx":1478,"utterance_id":1479,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1480,"start_s":1481,"end_s":1482,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},237,"65838","Former president Fernando Henrique said a phrase, after a long time, right?",1374.66,1377.9,{"idx":1484,"utterance_id":1485,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1486,"start_s":1487,"end_s":1488,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},238,"65839","Without major criticisms of the Bolsonaro government.",1378.6,1381,{"idx":1490,"utterance_id":1491,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1492,"start_s":1493,"end_s":1494,"word_count":447,"indexable":75},239,"65840","When Guedes threatened, in the wake of Heleno and Bolsonaro's son, with the 'five', saying that soon they'll ask for the five and don't be surprised by that, he said—look, Fernando Henrique said a phrase in counterpoint, saying the following: look, ultra-neoliberalism, ultra-liberalism, the expression he used, is what can drive people into the streets.",1382.36,1406.4,{"idx":1496,"utterance_id":1497,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1498,"start_s":1499,"end_s":1500,"word_count":328,"indexable":75},240,"65841","Meaning the following: don't put on account of the opposition political forces any eventual loss of control over the moods of the population, which in May went into the streets, by the millions, to question the government's decision on cuts to education.",1407.44,1426.22,{"idx":1502,"utterance_id":1503,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1504,"start_s":1505,"end_s":1506,"word_count":171,"indexable":75},241,"65842","And it succeeded, because the Bolsonaro government was forced to release education funds over the course of the year.",1427.22,1433.34,{"idx":1508,"utterance_id":1509,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1510,"start_s":1511,"end_s":1512,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},242,"65843","He felt there would be a reaction.",1433.82,1436.04,{"idx":1514,"utterance_id":1515,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1516,"start_s":1517,"end_s":1518,"word_count":171,"indexable":75},243,"65844","Do you think Bolsonaro's measures could lead to more serious problems in terms of social stability?",1437.22,1445.64,{"idx":23,"utterance_id":1520,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1521,"start_s":1522,"end_s":1523,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},"65845","Because Chile is a politically stable country.",1446.18,1450.04,{"idx":1525,"utterance_id":1526,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1527,"start_s":1528,"end_s":1529,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},245,"65846","For quite some time, since the end of Pinochet's dictatorship, there has been a democratic pact there that works.",1450.34,1457.18,{"idx":1531,"utterance_id":1532,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1533,"start_s":1534,"end_s":1535,"word_count":171,"indexable":75},246,"65847","And that does not prevent people from taking to the streets to protest, just like the rest of Latin America.",1457.76,1462.62,{"idx":1537,"utterance_id":1538,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1539,"start_s":1540,"end_s":1541,"word_count":140,"indexable":75},247,"65848","Do you think these measures are so radical that they could provoke such a level of unrest?",1463.88,1470.72,{"idx":1543,"utterance_id":1544,"speaker_name":100,"text":1545,"start_s":1546,"end_s":1547,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},248,"65849","It can, it can.",1471.04,1471.78,{"idx":1549,"utterance_id":1550,"speaker_name":100,"text":1551,"start_s":1552,"end_s":1553,"word_count":171,"indexable":75},249,"65850","I believe that Guedes's statement must be understood in the context of what is happening in the region.",1472.38,1479.74,{"idx":1555,"utterance_id":1556,"speaker_name":100,"text":1557,"start_s":1558,"end_s":1559,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},250,"65851","What is happening in Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Ecuador, Colombia, those turbulences in Bolivia, are frightening.",1481.5,1490.9,{"idx":1561,"utterance_id":1562,"speaker_name":100,"text":1563,"start_s":1564,"end_s":1565,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},251,"65852","the Brazilian establishment and the Bolsonaro government in particular.",1491.52,1494.1,{"idx":1567,"utterance_id":1568,"speaker_name":100,"text":1569,"start_s":1570,"end_s":1571,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},252,"65853","So, of course, the Finance Minister cannot do what Guedes did.",1495.2,1500,{"idx":1573,"utterance_id":1574,"speaker_name":100,"text":1575,"start_s":1576,"end_s":1577,"word_count":15,"indexable":75},253,"65854","He was questioned in an interview about statements by former president Lula and decided to bicker with... 'Ah, you're calling the people to the streets, so don't be surprised by AI-5.'",1500.04,1511.48,{"idx":1579,"utterance_id":1580,"speaker_name":100,"text":1581,"start_s":1582,"end_s":1583,"word_count":199,"indexable":75},254,"65855","That is not the role of the Finance Minister, or Minister of Economy in this case, to be polemicizing with opposition leaders.",1512.52,1518.8,{"idx":1585,"utterance_id":1586,"speaker_name":100,"text":1587,"start_s":1588,"end_s":1589,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},255,"65856","He has to be more restrained, you know?",1519.26,1520.78,{"idx":1591,"utterance_id":1592,"speaker_name":100,"text":1593,"start_s":1594,"end_s":1595,"word_count":60,"indexable":75},256,"65857","But I understand that his reaction was... Fernando, I dug up for you an interview of his in the Financial Times from February of this year.",1521.22,1530.5,{"idx":1597,"utterance_id":1598,"speaker_name":100,"text":1599,"start_s":1600,"end_s":1601,"word_count":299,"indexable":75},257,"65858","He said, among other pearls, that he was a scientist, just a scientist doing his work, and that Chile, that the Chicago Boys, the Chicago economists, had fixed Chile and Chile was now like Switzerland.",1531.48,1547.36,{"idx":1603,"utterance_id":1604,"speaker_name":100,"text":1605,"start_s":1606,"end_s":1607,"word_count":27,"indexable":75},258,"65859","So with that kind of radical mentality, somewhat politically blind, blind to the problems of inequality and poverty, he must have taken a shock when he saw what happened in Chile.",1548.66,1562.9,{"idx":1609,"utterance_id":1610,"speaker_name":100,"text":1611,"start_s":1612,"end_s":1613,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},259,"65860","Right after.",1563.18,1563.82,{"idx":1615,"utterance_id":1616,"speaker_name":100,"text":1611,"start_s":1617,"end_s":1618,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},260,"65861",1563.92,1564.58,{"idx":1620,"utterance_id":1621,"speaker_name":100,"text":1622,"start_s":1623,"end_s":1624,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},261,"65862","The challenge to the model he preached.",1565.44,1568.24,{"idx":1626,"utterance_id":1627,"speaker_name":100,"text":1628,"start_s":1629,"end_s":1630,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},262,"65863","Remember that he wanted to implement in Brazil a pension system based on individual capitalization, which was the Chilean model.",1568.34,1575.46,{"idx":1632,"utterance_id":1633,"speaker_name":100,"text":1634,"start_s":1635,"end_s":1636,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},263,"65864","implemented in '80, '81, under Pinochet's government, during the military dictatorship.",1576.72,1582.16,{"idx":1638,"utterance_id":1639,"speaker_name":100,"text":1640,"start_s":1641,"end_s":1642,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},264,"65865","So there is a problematic association between market fundamentalism and repression, which several people are noticing.",1583.56,1591.74,{"idx":1644,"utterance_id":1645,"speaker_name":100,"text":1646,"start_s":1647,"end_s":1648,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},265,"65866","And that statement by Guedes fits into that.",1592.2,1594.36,{"idx":1650,"utterance_id":1651,"speaker_name":100,"text":1652,"start_s":1653,"end_s":1654,"word_count":171,"indexable":75},266,"65867","But I also notice that Bolsonaro is putting the brakes on a bit; he is noticing what's happening.",1595.08,1603.88,{"idx":1656,"utterance_id":1657,"speaker_name":100,"text":1658,"start_s":1659,"end_s":1660,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},267,"65868","They are taking two measures.",1603.92,1605.74,{"idx":1662,"utterance_id":1663,"speaker_name":100,"text":1664,"start_s":1665,"end_s":1666,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},268,"65869","They are taking repressive measures — claims of exculpatory justification, interference, right?",1606.34,1612.56,{"idx":1668,"utterance_id":1669,"speaker_name":100,"text":1670,"start_s":1671,"end_s":1672,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},269,"65870","Interference.",1613.24,1613.56,{"idx":1674,"utterance_id":1675,"speaker_name":100,"text":1676,"start_s":1677,"end_s":1678,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},270,"65871","And those repeated statements about AI-5, almost as if trying to scare the opposition, right?",1613.92,1621.58,{"idx":1680,"utterance_id":1681,"speaker_name":100,"text":1682,"start_s":1683,"end_s":1684,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},271,"65872","Stay calm, because otherwise the dictatorship will come, right?",1622.3,1625.52,{"idx":1686,"utterance_id":1687,"speaker_name":100,"text":1688,"start_s":1689,"end_s":1690,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},272,"65873","That's one side.",1626.58,1627.12,{"idx":1692,"utterance_id":1693,"speaker_name":100,"text":1694,"start_s":1695,"end_s":1696,"word_count":142,"indexable":75},273,"65874","But the other side is that certain reforms are being slowed down.",1627.16,1630.48,{"idx":1698,"utterance_id":1699,"speaker_name":100,"text":1700,"start_s":1701,"end_s":1702,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},274,"65875","For example, Bolsonaro postponed sending the administrative reform to Congress.",1630.56,1636.2,{"idx":1704,"utterance_id":1705,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1706,"start_s":1707,"end_s":1708,"word_count":140,"indexable":75},275,"65876","When neoliberal thought emerges in the 1980s, at the end of the decade we approve a social-democratic constitution.",1636.62,1644.56,{"idx":1710,"utterance_id":1711,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1712,"start_s":1713,"end_s":1714,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},276,"65877","That is, at the same moment that things are being prepared for dismantling, we decide to build our state, in quotes, social-democratic.",1645.3,1655.34,{"idx":1716,"utterance_id":1717,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1718,"start_s":1719,"end_s":1720,"word_count":247,"indexable":75},277,"65878","And to tell the truth, during the 1990s — that is, up to 10, 15 years after the constitution was enacted — we effectively implemented very little of the Constitution, but we did implement it.",1656.14,1668.7,{"idx":1722,"utterance_id":1723,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1724,"start_s":1725,"end_s":1726,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},278,"65879","Then Lula's government came and implemented it; I think it was the government that took most seriously what was written in the 1988 Constitution.",1669.44,1675.92,{"idx":1728,"utterance_id":1729,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1730,"start_s":1731,"end_s":1732,"word_count":230,"indexable":75},279,"65880","You say Brazil does not fit in anyone's backyard, but I see many liberal economists saying our Constitution doesn't fit in our economy.",1675.96,1688.02,{"idx":1734,"utterance_id":1735,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1736,"start_s":1737,"end_s":1738,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},280,"65881","That is, the dismantling of constitutional rights is a prerequisite.",1689.86,1694.32,{"idx":1740,"utterance_id":1741,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1742,"start_s":1743,"end_s":1744,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},281,"65882","for the resumption of our development.",1695.04,1697.24,{"idx":1746,"utterance_id":1747,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1748,"start_s":1749,"end_s":1750,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},282,"65883","I would like you to explore that.",1697.42,1699.34,{"idx":1752,"utterance_id":1753,"speaker_name":100,"text":1754,"start_s":1755,"end_s":1756,"word_count":127,"indexable":75},283,"65884","A variant of that phrase, which I haven't heard from anyone but could have been said, is that the people do not fit in the public budget.",1699.38,1705.46,{"idx":1758,"utterance_id":1759,"speaker_name":100,"text":1760,"start_s":1761,"end_s":1762,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},284,"65885","In reality, what did Lula's government and Dilma's government do?",1707.42,1711.2,{"idx":1764,"utterance_id":1765,"speaker_name":100,"text":1766,"start_s":1767,"end_s":1768,"word_count":171,"indexable":75},285,"65886","They tried to put the people into the budget, but, to simplify to the extreme, the others remained in that budget — the rich.",1711.78,1721.64,{"idx":1770,"utterance_id":1771,"speaker_name":100,"text":1772,"start_s":1773,"end_s":1774,"word_count":110,"indexable":75},286,"65887","With incentives, with subsidies, with concessions.",1723.18,1725.02,{"idx":1776,"utterance_id":1777,"speaker_name":100,"text":1778,"start_s":1779,"end_s":1780,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},287,"65888","And when the crisis comes you have to ask who will be pushed out.",1725.1,1727.36,{"idx":1782,"utterance_id":1783,"speaker_name":100,"text":1784,"start_s":1785,"end_s":1786,"word_count":15,"indexable":75},288,"65889","Exactly. Now the crisis has come, resources have become scarcer, and the Brazilian theaters want to expel the people from the budget again so they can continue there with their incentives, subsidies, concessions, advantages.",1727.58,1739,{"idx":1788,"utterance_id":1789,"speaker_name":100,"text":1790,"start_s":1791,"end_s":1792,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},289,"65890","So the budgetary dispute is at the same time a social, distributive dispute.",1740.04,1743.52,{"idx":1794,"utterance_id":1795,"speaker_name":100,"text":1796,"start_s":1797,"end_s":1798,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},290,"65891","But Brazil is a particular case, I think.",1745.08,1747.92,{"idx":1800,"utterance_id":1801,"speaker_name":100,"text":1802,"start_s":1803,"end_s":1804,"word_count":381,"indexable":75},291,"65892","What happened in the United States and Europe, which we were trying to describe before, is different, because in Brazil, during the period when the populist right was gaining ground in Europe and the United States, there was a long reign of a kind of social democracy with Lula and with Dilma.",1748.98,1765.22,{"idx":29,"utterance_id":1806,"speaker_name":100,"text":1807,"start_s":1808,"end_s":1809,"word_count":247,"indexable":75},"65893","Although the party in Brazil that carries the name social democratic is PSDB, in reality social democracy is much more associated with the PT, in my view, really.",1765.72,1775.7,{"idx":1811,"utterance_id":1812,"speaker_name":100,"text":1813,"start_s":1814,"end_s":1815,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},293,"65894","Clearly.",1776.16,1776.72,{"idx":1817,"utterance_id":1818,"speaker_name":100,"text":1819,"start_s":1820,"end_s":1821,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},294,"65895","PSDB is a kind of new UDN.",1777.28,1779.08,{"idx":1823,"utterance_id":1824,"speaker_name":100,"text":1825,"start_s":1826,"end_s":1827,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},295,"65896","Much more than a social democracy.",1779.8,1781.48,{"idx":1829,"utterance_id":1830,"speaker_name":100,"text":1831,"start_s":1832,"end_s":1833,"word_count":122,"indexable":75},296,"65897","In Brazil everything is complicated, everything is complex.",1782.04,1784.16,{"idx":1835,"utterance_id":1836,"speaker_name":100,"text":1837,"start_s":1838,"end_s":1839,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},297,"65898","Very well.",1784.66,1785.06,{"idx":1841,"utterance_id":1842,"speaker_name":100,"text":1843,"start_s":1844,"end_s":1845,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},298,"65899","Thank you, Paulo.",1785.36,1786.1,{"idx":1847,"utterance_id":1848,"speaker_name":100,"text":1849,"start_s":1850,"end_s":1851,"word_count":116,"indexable":75},299,"65900","It was a pleasure to be here with you.",1787.02,1810.4,{"idx":1853,"utterance_id":1854,"speaker_name":100,"text":1855,"start_s":1856,"end_s":1857,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},300,"65901","It was a pleasure.",1810.82,1814.68,"en",{"job_id":1860,"title":1861,"source_url":1862,"platform":1863,"content_type":1864,"published_at":1865,"duration_sec":1866,"n_classified":1867,"speakers":1868},"eb228df7-563c-4a03-a0a5-5f0ff583c800","Painel Haddad (16\u002F12\u002F2020) - Paulo Nogueira Batista","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002Fwatch?v=PH5gIZk-UIA","youtube","video","2019-12-16T23:00:10Z",1814.697563,301,[1869],{"name":69,"slug":70,"n_falas":477},"https:\u002F\u002Fi.ytimg.com\u002Fvi\u002FPH5gIZk-UIA\u002Fhqdefault.jpg",{"limit":4,"offset":5,"speakers":1872,"total":287},[1873,1887,1900,1911,1917,1928,1939,1948,1955,1964],{"slug":1874,"name":1875,"party":1876,"role":1876,"state":1876,"n_speeches":1877,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1878,"photo_url":1882,"bio_short":1876,"wikidata_id":1883,"mandate_status":1884,"social_links":1885},"renan-santos","Renan Santos","",22525,[1879,1880,1881],"Abuse of Authority","Administrative and Labor Reform","Affirmative action","\u002Fprofiles\u002Frenan-santos\u002Fphoto.png","Q51882553","none",{"twitter":1886},"@RenanSantosMBL",{"slug":1888,"name":1889,"party":1876,"role":1876,"state":1890,"n_speeches":1891,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1892,"photo_url":1896,"bio_short":1876,"wikidata_id":1897,"mandate_status":1884,"social_links":1898},"romeu-zema","Romeu Zema","MG",12888,[1893,1894,1895],"Agriculture & Agribusiness","Amnesty and Jan 8 Characterization","Anti-Discrimination","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fromeu-zema\u002Fphoto.png","Q57092113",{"twitter":1899},"@RomeuZema",{"slug":1901,"name":1902,"party":1876,"role":1876,"state":1876,"n_speeches":1903,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1904,"bio_short":1876,"mandate_status":1884,"social_links":1908},"pablo-marcal","Pablo Marçal",12772,[1905,1906,1907],"Agricultural Policy","Business Environment","Campaign Financing",{"twitter":1909,"youtube":1910},"@pablomarcal","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002F@pablomarcall",{"slug":70,"name":69,"party":1876,"role":1876,"state":1912,"n_speeches":1913,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1914,"bio_short":1876,"wikidata_id":1915,"mandate_status":1884,"social_links":1916},"SP",12647,[1905,1893,1895],"Q3069485",{},{"slug":1918,"name":1919,"party":1876,"role":1876,"state":1920,"n_speeches":1921,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1922,"photo_url":1924,"bio_short":1876,"wikidata_id":1925,"mandate_status":1884,"social_links":1926},"ronaldo-caiado","Ronaldo Caiado","GO",12538,[1880,1881,1923],"Agribusiness & Regional Development","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fronaldo-caiado\u002Fphoto.png","Q10364348",{"twitter":1927},"@ronaldocaiado",{"slug":1929,"name":1930,"party":1876,"role":1931,"state":1912,"n_speeches":1932,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1933,"photo_url":1935,"bio_short":1876,"wikidata_id":1936,"mandate_status":1884,"social_links":1937},"tarcisio","Tarcisio","Governador",11298,[1934,1905,1893],"Age of Criminal Responsibility","\u002Fprofiles\u002Ftarcisio\u002Fphoto.png","Q60392579",{"twitter":1938},"tarcisiogdf",{"slug":1940,"name":1941,"party":1876,"role":1876,"state":1876,"n_speeches":1942,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1943,"photo_url":1945,"bio_short":1876,"wikidata_id":1946,"mandate_status":1884,"social_links":1947},"luis-inacio-lula-da-silva","Luis Inacio Lula da Silva",10531,[1905,1893,1944],"Benefits fraud & efficiency","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fluis-inacio-lula-da-silva\u002Fphoto.png","Q37181",{},{"slug":1949,"name":1950,"party":1876,"role":1876,"state":1876,"n_speeches":1951,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1952,"bio_short":1876,"mandate_status":1884,"social_links":1954},"augusto-cury","Augusto Cury",8912,[1923,1953,1905],"Agribusiness \u002F Environment",{},{"slug":1956,"name":1957,"party":1876,"role":1876,"state":1912,"n_speeches":1958,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1959,"photo_url":1960,"bio_short":1876,"wikidata_id":1961,"mandate_status":1884,"social_links":1962},"kim-kataguiri","Kim Kataguiri",8748,[1880,1934,1893],"\u002Fprofiles\u002Fkim-kataguiri\u002Fphoto.png","Q21715169",{"twitter":1963},"@KimKataguiri",{"slug":1965,"name":1966,"party":1876,"role":1876,"state":1967,"n_speeches":1968,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1969,"photo_url":1971,"bio_short":1876,"wikidata_id":1972,"mandate_status":1884,"social_links":1973},"flavio-bolsonaro","Flavio Bolsonaro","RJ",8066,[1905,1893,1970],"Anti-Fascism","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fflavio-bolsonaro\u002Fphoto.png","Q10283057",{"twitter":1974},"@FlavioBolsonaro"]