[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"transcript-e56b3fae-4268-470e-9216-ce35d117d8fb-en":3,"transcript-poster-e56b3fae-4268-470e-9216-ce35d117d8fb":1340,"footer-top-topics-en":1341,"footer-top-speakers-en":1387},{"falas":4,"lang":1328,"meta":1329},[5,15,21,29,36,43,50,57,63,68,74,79,84,90,96,102,107,113,119,125,132,139,145,152,157,163,169,175,181,186,192,198,204,210,216,221,227,233,238,244,250,256,262,268,274,280,286,292,298,304,310,316,322,328,334,340,346,352,357,363,369,375,381,387,393,399,405,411,417,423,429,435,441,447,453,459,465,471,477,483,489,495,501,507,513,519,525,531,537,543,549,555,561,567,573,579,585,591,597,603,609,615,621,627,633,639,645,651,657,663,669,675,681,687,693,699,705,711,717,723,729,735,741,747,753,759,764,770,776,782,788,794,800,806,812,818,824,830,836,842,848,854,860,866,872,878,884,890,896,902,908,914,920,926,932,938,944,950,956,962,968,974,980,986,992,998,1004,1010,1016,1022,1028,1034,1040,1046,1052,1058,1064,1070,1076,1082,1088,1094,1100,1106,1112,1118,1124,1130,1136,1142,1148,1154,1160,1166,1172,1178,1184,1190,1196,1202,1208,1214,1220,1226,1232,1238,1244,1250,1256,1262,1268,1274,1280,1286,1292,1298,1304,1310,1316,1322],{"idx":6,"utterance_id":7,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":10,"start_s":11,"end_s":12,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},0,"85183","Fernando Haddad","fernando-haddad","Flávio, there's a legend I wanted to check with you, that you placed first in the exam for federal judge, in the same exam as Sérgio Moro.",17.66,28.84,28,false,{"idx":16,"utterance_id":17,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":18,"start_s":19,"end_s":20,"word_count":16,"indexable":14},1,"85184","Is that true?",29.18,29.68,{"idx":22,"utterance_id":23,"speaker_name":24,"text":25,"start_s":26,"end_s":27,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},2,"85185","Desconhecido","There's part truth and part legend.",32.18,34.52,10,{"idx":30,"utterance_id":31,"speaker_name":24,"text":32,"start_s":33,"end_s":34,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},3,"85186","The true part is that, indeed, I had the pleasure in 1994 of passing the federal judge exam in first place.",34.56,42.26,23,{"idx":37,"utterance_id":38,"speaker_name":24,"text":39,"start_s":40,"end_s":41,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},4,"85187","But Moro's exam wasn't that one.",42.34,44.4,8,{"idx":44,"utterance_id":45,"speaker_name":24,"text":46,"start_s":47,"end_s":48,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},5,"85188","Moro's exam was, I think, one or two years after mine.",44.78,49.34,15,{"idx":51,"utterance_id":52,"speaker_name":24,"text":53,"start_s":54,"end_s":55,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},6,"85189","That idea came up and there was some doubt; later I checked.",49.68,53.58,11,{"idx":58,"utterance_id":59,"speaker_name":24,"text":60,"start_s":61,"end_s":62,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},7,"85190","In fact, he is a little younger than me in the career, so it's... It's true in a way, exactly.",53.76,62.88,{"idx":42,"utterance_id":64,"speaker_name":24,"text":65,"start_s":66,"end_s":67,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},"85191","And for how long did you serve as a judge?",62.98,65.08,{"idx":69,"utterance_id":70,"speaker_name":24,"text":71,"start_s":72,"end_s":73,"word_count":22,"indexable":14},9,"85192","Twelve years.",65.38,65.92,{"idx":28,"utterance_id":75,"speaker_name":24,"text":76,"start_s":77,"end_s":78,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},"85193","Twelve fairly intense years, from 1994 until 2006.",66.06,69.58,{"idx":56,"utterance_id":80,"speaker_name":24,"text":81,"start_s":82,"end_s":83,"word_count":58,"indexable":14},"85194","I served on the bench in Maranhão and in Brasília.",69.84,72.36,{"idx":85,"utterance_id":86,"speaker_name":24,"text":87,"start_s":88,"end_s":89,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},12,"85195","I worked at the Federal Regional Court of the First Region.",73.48,76.24,{"idx":91,"utterance_id":92,"speaker_name":24,"text":93,"start_s":94,"end_s":95,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},13,"85196","And when I left the career, I was secretary-general of the National Council of Justice.",76.38,80.54,{"idx":97,"utterance_id":98,"speaker_name":24,"text":99,"start_s":100,"end_s":101,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},14,"85197","That was the last one.",80.62,81.24,{"idx":49,"utterance_id":103,"speaker_name":24,"text":104,"start_s":105,"end_s":106,"word_count":44,"indexable":14},"85198","I helped establish the CNJ.",81.64,82.7,{"idx":108,"utterance_id":109,"speaker_name":24,"text":110,"start_s":111,"end_s":112,"word_count":22,"indexable":14},16,"85199","Oh, really?",83.1,83.72,{"idx":114,"utterance_id":115,"speaker_name":24,"text":116,"start_s":117,"end_s":118,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},17,"85200","Did you take part in the reform?",84.48,85.44,{"idx":120,"utterance_id":121,"speaker_name":24,"text":122,"start_s":123,"end_s":124,"word_count":44,"indexable":14},18,"85201","The reform, Amendment 45.",85.5,87.08,{"idx":126,"utterance_id":127,"speaker_name":24,"text":128,"start_s":129,"end_s":130,"word_count":131,"indexable":14},19,"85202","I helped to approve Amendment 45; I had been president of the National Association of Federal Judges and I worked very strongly toward the approval of the judiciary reform, which had been launched by an amendment signed by Hélio Bicudo, José de Seu, José Genuíno and several parliamentarians at the time from the PT, who spearheaded it right at the start.",88.38,111.18,57,{"idx":133,"utterance_id":134,"speaker_name":24,"text":135,"start_s":136,"end_s":137,"word_count":138,"indexable":14},20,"85203","In 1992, and after, therefore, 13 years of processing, this amendment was approved, creating the CNJ, and I worked on the implementation of the National Council of Justice until I left the career.",111.58,125.26,37,{"idx":140,"utterance_id":141,"speaker_name":24,"text":142,"start_s":143,"end_s":144,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},21,"85204","And then, after that?",125.5,126.88,{"idx":146,"utterance_id":147,"speaker_name":24,"text":148,"start_s":149,"end_s":150,"word_count":151,"indexable":14},22,"85205","Then I ran for federal deputy; I was elected in 2006 with the PCdoB, and I served four years on the Chamber of Deputies' Constitution and Justice Committee, so I remained tied to the legal field.",126.92,138.94,32,{"idx":35,"utterance_id":153,"speaker_name":24,"text":154,"start_s":155,"end_s":156,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},"85206","So there was a certain continuity between that role as a federal judge and as a federal deputy.",139.56,144.54,{"idx":158,"utterance_id":159,"speaker_name":24,"text":160,"start_s":161,"end_s":162,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},24,"85207","In 2010 I ran for governor, I lost the election and later I was elected twice, in 2014 and 2018.",144.84,154.22,{"idx":164,"utterance_id":165,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":166,"start_s":167,"end_s":168,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},25,"85208","You even served in the federal government; you even held positions...",154.6,158.52,{"idx":170,"utterance_id":171,"speaker_name":24,"text":172,"start_s":173,"end_s":174,"word_count":170,"indexable":14},26,"85209","Yes, when I was defeated in the election for governor in 2010—I came in second—I was invited by President Dilma to chair Embratur.",158.56,168.68,{"idx":176,"utterance_id":177,"speaker_name":24,"text":178,"start_s":179,"end_s":180,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},27,"85210","And I chaired it for three years in President Dilma's first administration.",169.26,173.9,{"idx":13,"utterance_id":182,"speaker_name":24,"text":183,"start_s":184,"end_s":185,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},"85211","That was also a very positive, very good experience.",174.44,176.68,{"idx":187,"utterance_id":188,"speaker_name":24,"text":189,"start_s":190,"end_s":191,"word_count":170,"indexable":14},29,"85212","And with that I completed, in a certain sense, the development of a broader view of State affairs, because I served in the Judiciary, in the Legislature and in the Executive, successively.",177.62,190.76,{"idx":193,"utterance_id":194,"speaker_name":24,"text":195,"start_s":196,"end_s":197,"word_count":120,"indexable":14},30,"85213","Therefore, when I took office as governor in 2015, I arrived with that very important, very useful experience,",190.82,198.36,{"idx":199,"utterance_id":200,"speaker_name":24,"text":201,"start_s":202,"end_s":203,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},31,"85214","for the day-to-day conduct of government affairs.",198.74,200.96,{"idx":151,"utterance_id":205,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":206,"start_s":207,"end_s":208,"word_count":209,"indexable":14},"85215","Well, we're going to try here to talk a little about your experience across all those stages of your life, all very rich from the point of view of public management and results.",201.4,211.26,34,{"idx":211,"utterance_id":212,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":213,"start_s":214,"end_s":215,"word_count":170,"indexable":14},33,"85216","And I'll start with being a judge, because I think we're living in a moment that, for those listening to us, it is important to hear from a judge.",212.12,220.28,{"idx":209,"utterance_id":217,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":218,"start_s":219,"end_s":220,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},"85217","Therefore, you have a commitment to the career, a commitment to the magistracy.",220.74,225.18,{"idx":222,"utterance_id":223,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":224,"start_s":225,"end_s":226,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},35,"85218","You honored the magistracy and have respect for it; I'd like to know a little better what your understanding is of the moment we're living through.",225.84,232.86,{"idx":228,"utterance_id":229,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":230,"start_s":231,"end_s":232,"word_count":51,"indexable":14},36,"85219","And I ask the following question.",233.04,234.48,{"idx":138,"utterance_id":234,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":235,"start_s":236,"end_s":237,"word_count":51,"indexable":14},"85220","It's normal for a judge to be right and to err.",235.44,239.74,{"idx":239,"utterance_id":240,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":241,"start_s":242,"end_s":243,"word_count":58,"indexable":14},38,"85221","It's part of a judge's life.",239.88,241.66,{"idx":245,"utterance_id":246,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":247,"start_s":248,"end_s":249,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},39,"85222","Obviously we expect them to be right much more often than they are wrong.",243.6,246.04,{"idx":251,"utterance_id":252,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":253,"start_s":254,"end_s":255,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},40,"85223","But if there were no possibility of error, there would be no appeals.",246.68,250.44,{"idx":257,"utterance_id":258,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":259,"start_s":260,"end_s":261,"word_count":251,"indexable":14},41,"85224","If the Constitution itself provides for appeals, if the legislation provides for them... a State Court of Justice, then the STJ and sometimes the STF, or in Labor or Electoral Courts, you always have a second and sometimes a third instance to review.",251.36,268.38,{"idx":263,"utterance_id":264,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":265,"start_s":266,"end_s":267,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},42,"85225","What happens now?",269.3,270.6,{"idx":269,"utterance_id":270,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":271,"start_s":272,"end_s":273,"word_count":164,"indexable":14},43,"85226","That reviewing a first-instance decision seems to have become, contrary to what one would reasonably imagine, a correction of course",271.34,283.18,{"idx":275,"utterance_id":276,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":277,"start_s":278,"end_s":279,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},44,"85227","in the pursuit of the truth.",283.94,284.92,{"idx":281,"utterance_id":282,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":283,"start_s":284,"end_s":285,"word_count":58,"indexable":14},45,"85228","What is happening with the judiciary?",284.96,286.82,{"idx":287,"utterance_id":288,"speaker_name":24,"text":289,"start_s":290,"end_s":291,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},46,"85229","In my assessment, what happened is that the judiciary in the country, fortunately, because of the 1988 Constitution, gained a lot of prominence.",287.56,296.36,{"idx":293,"utterance_id":294,"speaker_name":24,"text":295,"start_s":296,"end_s":297,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},47,"85230","And that brought some byproducts, which are, indeed, desirable.",297.08,301.18,{"idx":299,"utterance_id":300,"speaker_name":24,"text":301,"start_s":302,"end_s":303,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},48,"85231","One of them was the fact that there was an excessive mediatization of the judiciary.",301.3,307.88,{"idx":305,"utterance_id":306,"speaker_name":24,"text":307,"start_s":308,"end_s":309,"word_count":176,"indexable":14},49,"85232","I would say that part of the judiciary—and the justice system more generally—was greatly seduced by this civilization of the spectacle.",307.98,319.4,{"idx":311,"utterance_id":312,"speaker_name":24,"text":313,"start_s":314,"end_s":315,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},50,"85233","Which caused, paradoxically, a weakness to arise from strength.",319.9,324.42,{"idx":317,"utterance_id":318,"speaker_name":24,"text":319,"start_s":320,"end_s":321,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},51,"85234","Namely, the submission of the judiciary, of the justice system, to external institutions.",324.52,332.08,{"idx":323,"utterance_id":324,"speaker_name":24,"text":325,"start_s":326,"end_s":327,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},52,"85235","And therefore leading to a loss of independence.",332.62,335.48,{"idx":329,"utterance_id":330,"speaker_name":24,"text":331,"start_s":332,"end_s":333,"word_count":138,"indexable":14},53,"85236","Such that what was the normal error, as you mention, which is part of any human activity and therefore should and can be corrected through appeals, has often turned into improper acts.",336.2,350.5,{"idx":335,"utterance_id":336,"speaker_name":24,"text":337,"start_s":338,"end_s":339,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},54,"85237","Privileges, persecutions, discriminations.",350.86,353.96,{"idx":341,"utterance_id":342,"speaker_name":24,"text":343,"start_s":344,"end_s":345,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},55,"85238","And this led internal tensions in the justice system to become quite high.",354.64,361,{"idx":347,"utterance_id":348,"speaker_name":24,"text":349,"start_s":350,"end_s":351,"word_count":245,"indexable":14},56,"85239","And this ended up transforming what would be commonplace and routine—one judge decides one way, another decides another—into a stage of intense political struggle by forces internal to the justice system and deeply linked to external forces.",361.58,379.08,{"idx":131,"utterance_id":353,"speaker_name":24,"text":354,"start_s":355,"end_s":356,"word_count":13,"indexable":14},"85240","We have recently seen the revelation of a series of dialogues between members of the justice system showing this political, partisan, ideological instrumentalization of parts of the justice system.",379.52,393.06,{"idx":358,"utterance_id":359,"speaker_name":24,"text":360,"start_s":361,"end_s":362,"word_count":140,"indexable":14},58,"85241","And this is the main anomaly that leads to a distortion of the judicial game as it was conceived, in the abstract.",393.38,402.3,{"idx":364,"utterance_id":365,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":366,"start_s":367,"end_s":368,"word_count":245,"indexable":14},59,"85242","Do you understand that this mediatization, as you say—very aptly—you, who were part of the magistracy and have relatives in the justice system, who interact with appellate judges and with ministers, and also because you are governor for a second term...",403.66,419.26,{"idx":370,"utterance_id":371,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":372,"start_s":373,"end_s":374,"word_count":114,"indexable":14},60,"85243","Can you imagine that today appellate judges and justices might feel somewhat hostage to this process of mediatization?",419.88,428.56,{"idx":376,"utterance_id":377,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":378,"start_s":379,"end_s":380,"word_count":114,"indexable":14},61,"85244","That is, fearful of making a decision that contradicts public opinion, that contradicts the published opinion?",429.04,435.16,{"idx":382,"utterance_id":383,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":384,"start_s":385,"end_s":386,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},62,"85245","And with that, could this loss of independence become even more acute?",435.72,439.7,{"idx":388,"utterance_id":389,"speaker_name":24,"text":390,"start_s":391,"end_s":392,"word_count":51,"indexable":14},63,"85246","Unfortunately, we are witnessing this.",440.14,442.26,{"idx":394,"utterance_id":395,"speaker_name":24,"text":396,"start_s":397,"end_s":398,"word_count":140,"indexable":14},64,"85247","It is an undue pressure on the judiciary, because traditionally it was thought that these pressures would come only from political power.",443.42,455.68,{"idx":400,"utterance_id":401,"speaker_name":24,"text":402,"start_s":403,"end_s":404,"word_count":317,"indexable":14},65,"85248","And we are seeing that in the configuration of modern societies, this pressure of the civilization of the spectacle on the justice system causes segments of economic power, other social powers, other systems of power to also seek to convey their political, economic and social interests from within the justice system.",456.14,478.8,{"idx":406,"utterance_id":407,"speaker_name":24,"text":408,"start_s":409,"end_s":410,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},66,"85249","And this ends up destroying the very essence of the justice system, which is to be a power",479.26,484.48,{"idx":412,"utterance_id":413,"speaker_name":24,"text":414,"start_s":415,"end_s":416,"word_count":199,"indexable":14},67,"85250","more technical than political, therefore with a vocation to stand against the majoritarian, respecting principles and fundamental rights over the contingent struggles of the moment or petty interests.",485,498.2,{"idx":418,"utterance_id":419,"speaker_name":24,"text":420,"start_s":421,"end_s":422,"word_count":170,"indexable":14},68,"85251","Thus, the Judiciary, the justice system, has the strategic, fundamental care of these more enduring values of society, enshrined in the Constitution and the laws.",498.62,507.86,{"idx":424,"utterance_id":425,"speaker_name":24,"text":426,"start_s":427,"end_s":428,"word_count":287,"indexable":14},69,"85252","When there is this mediatization, there is the sacrifice of this essential role of the justice system, the loss of its power against the majoritarian, and thus the essence and raison d'être of a justice system that is more technical than political is destroyed.",508.28,525.16,{"idx":430,"utterance_id":431,"speaker_name":24,"text":432,"start_s":433,"end_s":434,"word_count":287,"indexable":14},70,"85253","And at the same time the logic of the principle of separation of powers is destroyed, in which the justice system would act as a kind of counterbalance to the more markedly political—and therefore more markedly majoritarian—powers, especially the judiciary, the legislature and the executive.",526.26,544.62,{"idx":436,"utterance_id":437,"speaker_name":24,"text":438,"start_s":439,"end_s":440,"word_count":170,"indexable":14},71,"85254","And I think, therefore, that the system of functional tripartition of the State is strongly shaken insofar as the justice system loses independence and impartiality.",544.98,555.38,{"idx":442,"utterance_id":443,"speaker_name":24,"text":444,"start_s":445,"end_s":446,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},72,"85255","Because of this adherence to the logic of the spectacle, of spectacularization, of mediatization.",555.78,561.26,{"idx":448,"utterance_id":449,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":450,"start_s":451,"end_s":452,"word_count":299,"indexable":14},73,"85256","Making the issue even more complex, we see at least a tendency or signs from the Judiciary, especially from the Supreme Court, that it may intend to engage in a debate about morals and such along an anti-majoritarian line, trying to perform an even more sophisticated exegesis of the Constitution.",562.82,584.16,{"idx":454,"utterance_id":455,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":456,"start_s":457,"end_s":458,"word_count":140,"indexable":14},74,"85257","From the point of view of guaranteeing individual rights, which is an advance regarding civil and political rights.",584.7,590.64,{"idx":460,"utterance_id":461,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":462,"start_s":463,"end_s":464,"word_count":91,"indexable":14},75,"85258","But in the realm of criminal law, it seems that this goes in the opposite direction.",591.14,597,{"idx":466,"utterance_id":467,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":468,"start_s":469,"end_s":470,"word_count":151,"indexable":14},76,"85259","That is, it seems we are living in a less rights-protective moment than in the past and with, perhaps, consequences for the prison system that make it almost ungovernable.",597.54,610.7,{"idx":472,"utterance_id":473,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":474,"start_s":475,"end_s":476,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},77,"85260","I put myself in the position of a governor.",610.74,612.84,{"idx":478,"utterance_id":479,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":480,"start_s":481,"end_s":482,"word_count":187,"indexable":14},78,"85261","Someone who manages the system, on the one hand, from an executive perspective, but from the standpoint of the consequences of the decisions made, you do not participate in the decisions.",614.26,627.1,{"idx":484,"utterance_id":485,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":486,"start_s":487,"end_s":488,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},79,"85262","In other words, you are not the decision-maker, but the consequences fall on your lap.",627.54,634.64,{"idx":490,"utterance_id":491,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":492,"start_s":493,"end_s":494,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},80,"85263","Because you, as governor, manage the prison system.",634.68,638.22,{"idx":496,"utterance_id":497,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":498,"start_s":499,"end_s":500,"word_count":51,"indexable":14},81,"85264","How do you see that?",638.26,639.22,{"idx":502,"utterance_id":503,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":504,"start_s":505,"end_s":506,"word_count":120,"indexable":14},82,"85265","How does a governor—someone who has been on both sides—see it? Is there a solution to this problem?",639.32,645.68,{"idx":508,"utterance_id":509,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":510,"start_s":511,"end_s":512,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},83,"85266","Is there a way forward?",645.74,646.54,{"idx":514,"utterance_id":515,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":516,"start_s":517,"end_s":518,"word_count":209,"indexable":14},84,"85267","How would you, if you were in the position to arbitrate this apparent conflict, if it indeed exists—I want your opinion—how do you see the handling of this apparent contradiction?",646.72,658.84,{"idx":520,"utterance_id":521,"speaker_name":24,"text":522,"start_s":523,"end_s":524,"word_count":140,"indexable":14},85,"85268","One of the oldest, millennial philosophical reflections is that virtue should always be sought in the middle ground.",659.5,667.6,{"idx":526,"utterance_id":527,"speaker_name":24,"text":528,"start_s":529,"end_s":530,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},86,"85269","That is a maxim.",668.26,669.94,{"idx":532,"utterance_id":533,"speaker_name":24,"text":534,"start_s":535,"end_s":536,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},87,"85270","Of the art of good governance: always seek a balance between extremist views.",671,676.14,{"idx":538,"utterance_id":539,"speaker_name":24,"text":540,"start_s":541,"end_s":542,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},88,"85271","And that is what we must do on this complex issue.",676.76,679.94,{"idx":544,"utterance_id":545,"speaker_name":24,"text":546,"start_s":547,"end_s":548,"word_count":211,"indexable":14},89,"85272","On the one hand you cannot have that 'enemy' criminal policy, that law-and-order approach of 'let's arrest everyone and that solves it,' because that is false, untrue, and has consequences.",680.44,691.6,{"idx":550,"utterance_id":551,"speaker_name":24,"text":552,"start_s":553,"end_s":554,"word_count":170,"indexable":14},90,"85273","Social and economic consequences and for public finances that must be examined; nor, on the other hand, can you, obviously, adopt a lenient 'free-for-all' posture",692.94,703.14,{"idx":556,"utterance_id":557,"speaker_name":24,"text":558,"start_s":559,"end_s":560,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},91,"85274","accepting a kind of Hobbesian war of all against all.",704.7,708.74,{"idx":562,"utterance_id":563,"speaker_name":24,"text":564,"start_s":565,"end_s":566,"word_count":209,"indexable":14},92,"85275","So you must seek to guarantee the authority of the State, the monopoly on the legitimate use of force, as Max Weber said, and thus guarantee the authority of democratic legality over possible illicit conduct.",708.98,722.86,{"idx":568,"utterance_id":569,"speaker_name":24,"text":570,"start_s":571,"end_s":572,"word_count":120,"indexable":14},93,"85276","This cannot be done in any way, in any manner, nor can it be done arbitrarily.",723.26,729.44,{"idx":574,"utterance_id":575,"speaker_name":24,"text":576,"start_s":577,"end_s":578,"word_count":370,"indexable":14},94,"85277","And that is exactly it—this seasoning, this tempering, this middle ground—which, in my view, has been lost in recent years, since, due to the facts we have just discussed about the submission of the justice system to the logic of the spectacle, there has been an undue flexibilization of fundamental guarantees, procedural guarantees, pertaining to the so-called due process of law.",729.56,758.22,{"idx":580,"utterance_id":581,"speaker_name":24,"text":582,"start_s":583,"end_s":584,"word_count":193,"indexable":14},95,"85278","And this ends up causing the prison population in Brazil to grow exponentially, without a corresponding reduction in crime, showing that there is an error in the thesis.",758.82,771.68,{"idx":586,"utterance_id":587,"speaker_name":24,"text":588,"start_s":589,"end_s":590,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},96,"85279","That is, the harshness of the penal system, the alleged harshness of the penal and penitentiary system, does not necessarily lead to a reduction in crime.",772.38,781.9,{"idx":592,"utterance_id":593,"speaker_name":24,"text":594,"start_s":595,"end_s":596,"word_count":58,"indexable":14},97,"85280","So we have to separate two things.",782.14,783.86,{"idx":598,"utterance_id":599,"speaker_name":24,"text":600,"start_s":601,"end_s":602,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},98,"85281","Of course the penal-penitentiary system has to be efficient in combating urban violence,",783.94,790.46,{"idx":604,"utterance_id":605,"speaker_name":24,"text":606,"start_s":607,"end_s":608,"word_count":140,"indexable":14},99,"85282","crime and criminal organizations; however, this should not be confused with the idea that imprisoning everyone will solve everything.",790.86,799.06,{"idx":610,"utterance_id":611,"speaker_name":24,"text":612,"start_s":613,"end_s":614,"word_count":158,"indexable":14},100,"85283","Nor can the procedural system be developed according to a 'the ends justify the means' logic, as unfortunately we have seen in Brazil.",799.48,808.32,{"idx":616,"utterance_id":617,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":618,"start_s":619,"end_s":620,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},101,"85284","Well, throughout history we have had all kinds of punishment.",808.84,811.66,{"idx":622,"utterance_id":623,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":624,"start_s":625,"end_s":626,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},102,"85285","We have had everything from ostracism to physical punishments and evolved to custodial sentences.",811.96,819.02,{"idx":628,"utterance_id":629,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":630,"start_s":631,"end_s":632,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},103,"85286","And today, more recently, criminal law has evolved toward alternative penalties for minor harms caused to society.",819.72,827.72,{"idx":634,"utterance_id":635,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":636,"start_s":637,"end_s":638,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},104,"85287","Do you think we are making good use of this model?",828.32,831.72,{"idx":640,"utterance_id":641,"speaker_name":24,"text":642,"start_s":643,"end_s":644,"word_count":22,"indexable":14},105,"85288","Not yet.",831.96,832.5,{"idx":646,"utterance_id":647,"speaker_name":24,"text":648,"start_s":649,"end_s":650,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},106,"85289","There is a lot of internal and external resistance to the justice system, as you mentioned earlier.",832.82,839.16,{"idx":652,"utterance_id":653,"speaker_name":24,"text":654,"start_s":655,"end_s":656,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},107,"85290","In the case of political sectors, especially governments, we do not hold the key to the system's entrance door.",839.22,847.42,{"idx":658,"utterance_id":659,"speaker_name":24,"text":660,"start_s":661,"end_s":662,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},108,"85291","Nor do we hold the key to the system's exit.",847.82,850.46,{"idx":664,"utterance_id":665,"speaker_name":24,"text":666,"start_s":667,"end_s":668,"word_count":140,"indexable":14},109,"85292","We take care, in the case of prisons, of those whom the justice system sends there, and those who leave do so by court order.",850.82,859.46,{"idx":670,"utterance_id":671,"speaker_name":24,"text":672,"start_s":673,"end_s":674,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},110,"85293","So the observation we make is that a more efficient system of alternative measures, of alternative penalties, would certainly guarantee a better system.",860.02,870.68,{"idx":676,"utterance_id":677,"speaker_name":24,"text":678,"start_s":679,"end_s":680,"word_count":108,"indexable":14},111,"85294","For society; it is not necessarily better for governments or for those who may have broken the law.",871.28,876.16,{"idx":682,"utterance_id":683,"speaker_name":24,"text":684,"start_s":685,"end_s":686,"word_count":170,"indexable":14},112,"85295","It would be better for society in the sense of being less burdensome and, at the same time, more able to better care for those who necessarily must be imprisoned.",876.46,886.52,{"idx":688,"utterance_id":689,"speaker_name":24,"text":690,"start_s":691,"end_s":692,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},113,"85296","Obviously there are thousands of people whose appropriate penal response is, in fact, deprivation of liberty, that is, imprisonment.",886.82,894.44,{"idx":694,"utterance_id":695,"speaker_name":24,"text":696,"start_s":697,"end_s":698,"word_count":58,"indexable":14},114,"85297","However, you need to have the conditions to guarantee",894.78,897.02,{"idx":700,"utterance_id":701,"speaker_name":24,"text":702,"start_s":703,"end_s":704,"word_count":245,"indexable":14},115,"85298","that this sentence is effective, through compliance with the law, the imposition of duties related to work and education, to ensure that the punishment funded by society can bring benefits in the future regarding public safety.",897.4,916.8,{"idx":706,"utterance_id":707,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":708,"start_s":709,"end_s":710,"word_count":436,"indexable":14},116,"85299","Flávio, still asking the judge—I'll change the subject soon, but one last question—I wanted you to make an assessment of Lava Jato on two aspects that seem to me... The first: did we make good use, or could we have used better, the law against organized crime, the leniency agreements, with respect to the punishment of executives or shareholders of companies that were involved in acts of corruption?",917.76,950.28,{"idx":712,"utterance_id":713,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":714,"start_s":715,"end_s":716,"word_count":44,"indexable":14},117,"85300","Therefore, there was another path.",951.34,954.56,{"idx":718,"utterance_id":719,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":720,"start_s":721,"end_s":722,"word_count":222,"indexable":14},118,"85301","with the aim of preserving jobs, preserving the company as a social asset and punishing those who may have acted improperly, including with severe asset forfeiture and, possibly, custodial sentences that could be lengthy.",954.96,970.8,{"idx":724,"utterance_id":725,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":726,"start_s":727,"end_s":728,"word_count":22,"indexable":14},119,"85302","Point one.",972.08,972.5,{"idx":730,"utterance_id":731,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":732,"start_s":733,"end_s":734,"word_count":22,"indexable":14},120,"85303","Point two.",972.8,973.58,{"idx":736,"utterance_id":737,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":738,"start_s":739,"end_s":740,"word_count":364,"indexable":14},121,"85304","Don't you think, and I'm asking this provocatively, that the institution of plea bargaining has become... a somewhat dangerous instrument, because it requires handling to prevent lies, to prevent the submission of a narrative that is not later proven, that is not accompanied by conclusive evidence about what is being disclosed concerning people.",975.12,1009.28,{"idx":742,"utterance_id":743,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":744,"start_s":745,"end_s":746,"word_count":42,"indexable":14},122,"85305","Often it is discovered two, three years later.",1009.7,1012.04,{"idx":748,"utterance_id":749,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":750,"start_s":751,"end_s":752,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},123,"85306","that what the person said was shamefully a lie about someone with a reputation.",1012.6,1018.56,{"idx":754,"utterance_id":755,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":756,"start_s":757,"end_s":758,"word_count":138,"indexable":14},124,"85307","These two issues, the treatment by Lava Jato of companies and jobs, therefore, and the question of the modus operandi of plea bargains and what is known about them, a good portion of which has not been proven.",1019.56,1034.72,{"idx":760,"utterance_id":761,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":498,"start_s":762,"end_s":763,"word_count":51,"indexable":14},125,"85308",1035,1035.92,{"idx":765,"utterance_id":766,"speaker_name":24,"text":767,"start_s":768,"end_s":769,"word_count":120,"indexable":14},126,"85309","Both are fairly recent innovations in our legal system, both the leniency agreement and plea bargaining.",1036.56,1043.6,{"idx":771,"utterance_id":772,"speaker_name":24,"text":773,"start_s":774,"end_s":775,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},127,"85310","It is natural that there be a moment of perplexity, adjustments, and balancing, both in theory and in practice.",1044.22,1051.74,{"idx":777,"utterance_id":778,"speaker_name":24,"text":779,"start_s":780,"end_s":781,"word_count":176,"indexable":14},128,"85311","I think we are at the point where, after some years of this concrete experience, we already know the positive points of these innovations and also the negative points.",1051.84,1062.94,{"idx":783,"utterance_id":784,"speaker_name":24,"text":785,"start_s":786,"end_s":787,"word_count":58,"indexable":14},129,"85312","There is no doubt they are modern instruments.",1063.44,1065.4,{"idx":789,"utterance_id":790,"speaker_name":24,"text":791,"start_s":792,"end_s":793,"word_count":158,"indexable":14},130,"85313","aligned with and consistent with the most advanced legislations in the world and that they should be preserved, however, precisely by clearly raising some points for reflection.",1066.38,1079.76,{"idx":795,"utterance_id":796,"speaker_name":24,"text":797,"start_s":798,"end_s":799,"word_count":199,"indexable":14},131,"85314","With regard to the leniency agreement, what we have observed in Brazil is that, on the one hand, there was an overuse of plea bargains and, at the same time, a certain disregard",1080.4,1092.2,{"idx":801,"utterance_id":802,"speaker_name":24,"text":803,"start_s":804,"end_s":805,"word_count":114,"indexable":14},132,"85315","for the virtues that leniency agreements could bring and that other legal systems in the world do bring.",1092.68,1098.08,{"idx":807,"utterance_id":808,"speaker_name":24,"text":809,"start_s":810,"end_s":811,"word_count":58,"indexable":14},133,"85316","Markedly, it is this virtue that you mention.",1098.48,1100.84,{"idx":813,"utterance_id":814,"speaker_name":24,"text":815,"start_s":816,"end_s":817,"word_count":228,"indexable":14},134,"85317","One fights corruption, but one does not destroy a social good, which is the company, which contains expertise, a history, investments, a brand, generates jobs, opportunities, sometimes even on an international scale, as happened in Brazil.",1101.22,1119.8,{"idx":819,"utterance_id":820,"speaker_name":24,"text":821,"start_s":822,"end_s":823,"word_count":329,"indexable":14},135,"85318","Thus, we saw in the United States, in the 2008 crisis, whose echoes are still heard today, punishments occurred with respect to executives of companies, brokerages, banks, but the institutions... in the United States' economic and political system were preserved precisely because of the higher interests of society.",1120.28,1148.82,{"idx":825,"utterance_id":826,"speaker_name":24,"text":827,"start_s":828,"end_s":829,"word_count":275,"indexable":14},136,"85319","So I believe the first adjustment, the first reflection we need to make is to use leniency agreements better to ensure that corruption is combated while simultaneously not destroying jobs and opportunities and delaying economic growth as we unfortunately saw in Brazil.",1149.26,1168.82,{"idx":831,"utterance_id":832,"speaker_name":24,"text":833,"start_s":834,"end_s":835,"word_count":140,"indexable":14},137,"85320","Regarding plea bargains, we have a vital element for the system to work, which is voluntariness.",1169.28,1177.76,{"idx":837,"utterance_id":838,"speaker_name":24,"text":839,"start_s":840,"end_s":841,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},138,"85321","That is, no one can be coerced into making a plea bargain.",1178.06,1181.86,{"idx":843,"utterance_id":844,"speaker_name":24,"text":845,"start_s":846,"end_s":847,"word_count":251,"indexable":14},139,"85322","Because if a person is coerced to make the plea, it is clear that the thing they will be least concerned with is the truth, because they have a personal interest in saving themselves, protecting their own skin.",1182.28,1197.12,{"idx":849,"utterance_id":850,"speaker_name":24,"text":851,"start_s":852,"end_s":853,"word_count":56,"indexable":14},140,"85323","So, evidently, it is as if someone is being tortured.",1197.64,1203.06,{"idx":855,"utterance_id":856,"speaker_name":24,"text":857,"start_s":858,"end_s":859,"word_count":140,"indexable":14},141,"85324","They will say what the torturer desires to get out of that situation as soon as possible.",1203.34,1212.64,{"idx":861,"utterance_id":862,"speaker_name":24,"text":863,"start_s":864,"end_s":865,"word_count":114,"indexable":14},142,"85325","In the case of plea bargains, it is clear that it is not torture in the physical sense.",1212.98,1218.22,{"idx":867,"utterance_id":868,"speaker_name":24,"text":869,"start_s":870,"end_s":871,"word_count":193,"indexable":14},143,"85326","But there is no doubt at this stage that, improperly, mechanisms of pressure were used through leaks, planted news, offers of benefits, threats of undue legal burdens, such as extended pretrial detentions.",1219.36,1237.42,{"idx":873,"utterance_id":874,"speaker_name":24,"text":875,"start_s":876,"end_s":877,"word_count":114,"indexable":14},144,"85327","All of this causing that essential characteristic of plea bargains, which is voluntariness, to be sacrificed.",1237.88,1246.18,{"idx":879,"utterance_id":880,"speaker_name":24,"text":881,"start_s":882,"end_s":883,"word_count":382,"indexable":14},145,"85328","So, there is no doubt by now, any impartial analyst will verify that plea bargains in Brazil suffered this distortion and therefore we have to correct, including, the legal framework to make it clear that a plea bargain without the element of voluntariness must be annulled, disregarded, to prevent people watching us here tomorrow from being victims.",1246.52,1277.16,{"idx":885,"utterance_id":886,"speaker_name":24,"text":887,"start_s":888,"end_s":889,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},146,"85329","They themselves, or their families, or their companies, their businesses.",1277.84,1282.1,{"idx":891,"utterance_id":892,"speaker_name":24,"text":893,"start_s":894,"end_s":895,"word_count":146,"indexable":14},147,"85330","of some kind of crafty, pernicious maneuver, because sometimes, when it is against politicians, they say, ah, it's a problem of the politicians.",1282.58,1291.06,{"idx":897,"utterance_id":898,"speaker_name":24,"text":899,"start_s":900,"end_s":901,"word_count":58,"indexable":14},148,"85331","It is not, it is a problem for society.",1291.14,1293.18,{"idx":903,"utterance_id":904,"speaker_name":24,"text":905,"start_s":906,"end_s":907,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},149,"85332","We need to have respect for the Constitution and for legality in favor of all people, even the most innocent.",1293.62,1302.46,{"idx":909,"utterance_id":910,"speaker_name":24,"text":911,"start_s":912,"end_s":913,"word_count":187,"indexable":14},150,"85333","who accompany us now may tomorrow be the victim of a huge injustice, as we are seeing, of innocent people being the victims of barbaric accusations that later prove unfounded.",1303.56,1315.86,{"idx":915,"utterance_id":916,"speaker_name":24,"text":917,"start_s":918,"end_s":919,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},151,"85334","And, unfortunately, in many cases, reparation is not even possible, for a number of reasons.",1316.3,1321.9,{"idx":921,"utterance_id":922,"speaker_name":24,"text":923,"start_s":924,"end_s":925,"word_count":131,"indexable":14},152,"85335","Moral reparation, sometimes even reparation arising from a detention that was wrongful and then results in an acquittal, so we have to preserve, yes, the fight against corruption, preserve these modern institutions, these innovations, but making these reflections to ensure that we do not sacrifice fundamental rights of all people.",1321.98,1345.72,{"idx":927,"utterance_id":928,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":929,"start_s":930,"end_s":931,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},153,"85336","Say a little about Maranhão, after all, you are governing the State for the second time now, you were reelected with an expressive vote.",1346.54,1354.84,{"idx":933,"utterance_id":934,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":935,"start_s":936,"end_s":937,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},154,"85337","How was it, actually, to face the first administration in Maranhão?",1357.56,1362.24,{"idx":939,"utterance_id":940,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":941,"start_s":942,"end_s":943,"word_count":158,"indexable":14},155,"85338","We know Maranhão has a history, the Sarney family has a history in Maranhão, which dates back to the 1960s, a long tradition.",1363.02,1372.2,{"idx":945,"utterance_id":946,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":947,"start_s":948,"end_s":949,"word_count":281,"indexable":14},156,"85339","There were a few interregnums, few, I would say, in these more than 50 years, and then someone from the PC do B appears, who, precisely because of that party affiliation, was poked in interviews and such, to say what he thought about capitalism, communism and so on.",1373.16,1391.82,{"idx":951,"utterance_id":952,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":953,"start_s":954,"end_s":955,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},157,"85340","How was it to take over the government of Maranhão?",1392.52,1395.2,{"idx":957,"utterance_id":958,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":959,"start_s":960,"end_s":961,"word_count":44,"indexable":14},158,"85341","And what did you find?",1396.52,1398.24,{"idx":963,"utterance_id":964,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":965,"start_s":966,"end_s":967,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},159,"85342","What was your main challenge at the beginning of your first term?",1398.88,1402.26,{"idx":969,"utterance_id":970,"speaker_name":24,"text":971,"start_s":972,"end_s":973,"word_count":140,"indexable":14},160,"85343","We achieved that electoral success because of a broad political front that we built, both in 2014 and in 2018.",1403.56,1412.12,{"idx":975,"utterance_id":976,"speaker_name":24,"text":977,"start_s":978,"end_s":979,"word_count":51,"indexable":14},161,"85344","Therefore, the governments have always been quite plural.",1412.34,1415.64,{"idx":981,"utterance_id":982,"speaker_name":24,"text":983,"start_s":984,"end_s":985,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},162,"85345","And that is a virtue, not only to win an election, but to govern well.",1416.26,1421.9,{"idx":987,"utterance_id":988,"speaker_name":24,"text":989,"start_s":990,"end_s":991,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},163,"85346","And we forged the link, the amalgam of those heterogeneous political forces to win the elections and to govern, with some fundamental programmatic marks.",1422.76,1432.2,{"idx":993,"utterance_id":994,"speaker_name":24,"text":995,"start_s":996,"end_s":997,"word_count":133,"indexable":14},164,"85347","The main one is that it is the duty of every government in our country to fight very strongly against social inequalities.",1432.3,1441.06,{"idx":999,"utterance_id":1000,"speaker_name":24,"text":1001,"start_s":1002,"end_s":1003,"word_count":323,"indexable":14},165,"85348","So, our struggle in these four and a half years was, our struggles were mainly aimed at that objective of guaranteeing public policies, public services, rights for the poorest, for the invisible, for those who have the least, in fundamental areas, such as education, so that with that we might have.",1441.46,1462.32,{"idx":1005,"utterance_id":1006,"speaker_name":24,"text":1007,"start_s":1008,"end_s":1009,"word_count":193,"indexable":14},166,"85349","At the moment, there is certainty that we are indeed strongly opening avenues of opportunity for thousands of people who never had access to public policies as they do today in our State.",1462.98,1475.34,{"idx":1011,"utterance_id":1012,"speaker_name":24,"text":1013,"start_s":1014,"end_s":1015,"word_count":140,"indexable":14},167,"85350","That is the main, gigantic challenge, above all taking into account the comparison with the conditions regarding public finances.",1475.62,1487.4,{"idx":1017,"utterance_id":1018,"speaker_name":24,"text":1019,"start_s":1020,"end_s":1021,"word_count":58,"indexable":14},168,"85351","We had severe fiscal constraints during this period.",1487.48,1490.9,{"idx":1023,"utterance_id":1024,"speaker_name":24,"text":1025,"start_s":1026,"end_s":1027,"word_count":151,"indexable":14},169,"85352","because the pursuit of universalization and expansion of public services in our State occurs precisely at the moment when the economy enters a very deep recession already in its fifth consecutive year.",1491.3,1503.84,{"idx":1029,"utterance_id":1030,"speaker_name":24,"text":1031,"start_s":1032,"end_s":1033,"word_count":187,"indexable":14},170,"85353","So, we dealt all the time with this duality, very broad needs, a programmatic vision to ensure that public services reach people's homes, in comparison",1503.9,1518.16,{"idx":1035,"utterance_id":1036,"speaker_name":24,"text":1037,"start_s":1038,"end_s":1039,"word_count":28,"indexable":14},171,"85354","with the limitations and constraints derived from the fiscal crisis.",1518.6,1522.78,{"idx":1041,"utterance_id":1042,"speaker_name":24,"text":1043,"start_s":1044,"end_s":1045,"word_count":114,"indexable":14},172,"85355","It has been very challenging, exhausting, I would say, very tense all the time because of this difficult balance.",1522.9,1531,{"idx":1047,"utterance_id":1048,"speaker_name":24,"text":1049,"start_s":1050,"end_s":1051,"word_count":120,"indexable":14},173,"85356","A very arid, very inhospitable environment, but thank God with very positive results in all areas.",1532.04,1539.18,{"idx":1053,"utterance_id":1054,"speaker_name":24,"text":1055,"start_s":1056,"end_s":1057,"word_count":158,"indexable":14},174,"85357","And for that very reason the population recognized it, so much so that for the second time I was elected in the first round and we continue this work very strongly.",1539.7,1546.8,{"idx":1059,"utterance_id":1060,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1061,"start_s":1062,"end_s":1063,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},175,"85358","Are you reaping more results in any specific area?",1547.18,1550.64,{"idx":1065,"utterance_id":1066,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1067,"start_s":1068,"end_s":1069,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},176,"85359","Or have you observed an evolution of the indicators in a general way?",1551.3,1555.24,{"idx":1071,"utterance_id":1072,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1073,"start_s":1074,"end_s":1075,"word_count":58,"indexable":14},177,"85360","How have you perceived that?",1555.86,1557.18,{"idx":1077,"utterance_id":1078,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1079,"start_s":1080,"end_s":1081,"word_count":44,"indexable":14},178,"85361","Which area is responding more?",1557.22,1558.7,{"idx":1083,"utterance_id":1084,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1085,"start_s":1086,"end_s":1087,"word_count":51,"indexable":14},179,"85362","to the stimuli you are offering?",1559.12,1560.88,{"idx":1089,"utterance_id":1090,"speaker_name":24,"text":1091,"start_s":1092,"end_s":1093,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},180,"85363","We have moderate improvement in all indicators.",1561.3,1565.22,{"idx":1095,"utterance_id":1096,"speaker_name":24,"text":1097,"start_s":1098,"end_s":1099,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},181,"85364","That is, we have not been able, due to objective conditions, to have explosive progress.",1565.3,1572.58,{"idx":1101,"utterance_id":1102,"speaker_name":24,"text":1103,"start_s":1104,"end_s":1105,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},182,"85365","Also because time is very short and the country's economic conditions are very difficult.",1572.94,1577.48,{"idx":1107,"utterance_id":1108,"speaker_name":24,"text":1109,"start_s":1110,"end_s":1111,"word_count":382,"indexable":14},183,"85366","But, whatever the item we analyze, we have improvements that I can exemplify, with the rise of IDEB, the Basic Education Development Index of the State Network, we had an expressive increase, we reached an improvement greater than 20%, 25% in the index, reduction in infant mortality, reduction in maternal mortality, expansion of hospital beds by 40%.",1578.02,1604.72,{"idx":1113,"utterance_id":1114,"speaker_name":24,"text":1115,"start_s":1116,"end_s":1117,"word_count":209,"indexable":14},184,"85367","we almost doubled the places in the state universities, more than doubled postgraduate scholarships, implemented a literacy program, multiplied by five the food security program through the creation of popular restaurants.",1605.48,1620.56,{"idx":1119,"utterance_id":1120,"speaker_name":24,"text":1121,"start_s":1122,"end_s":1123,"word_count":211,"indexable":14},185,"85368","So, we reduced violence, we reduced it in the metropolitan region of São Luís by about 62%, in 2014 there were, before our government, 61 deaths in the Pedrinhas system, last year there was only one.",1621.1,1635.2,{"idx":1125,"utterance_id":1126,"speaker_name":24,"text":1127,"start_s":1128,"end_s":1129,"word_count":293,"indexable":14},186,"85369","So we went from 61 homicides to 1 and we are dissatisfied with that 1, I make a point of stressing, but it is a very visible, emblematic, eloquent reduction, showing that whatever item we analyze, we will find what I told you, a moderate but constant improvement.",1635.52,1655.92,{"idx":1131,"utterance_id":1132,"speaker_name":24,"text":1133,"start_s":1134,"end_s":1135,"word_count":164,"indexable":14},187,"85370","That is, in 2019, eventually repeating this conversation in 2020... and looking at this current year, certainly the indicators will be even better.",1656.12,1667.42,{"idx":1137,"utterance_id":1138,"speaker_name":24,"text":1139,"start_s":1140,"end_s":1141,"word_count":251,"indexable":14},188,"85371","So we have a steady and firm path, improving people's living conditions and always hoping the economy returns to growth, because then we speed up the pace toward changes and the fight against inequalities.",1667.5,1679.66,{"idx":1143,"utterance_id":1144,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1145,"start_s":1146,"end_s":1147,"word_count":317,"indexable":14},189,"85372","Do you have concerns about the sustainability of the project you represent today in Maranhão, from the point of view of the measures you are taking vis-à-vis the economy's evolution, that is, are they sustainable; you gave a significant raise to teachers, for example, it is one of the highest teacher salaries in the country.",1679.76,1698.28,{"idx":1149,"utterance_id":1150,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1151,"start_s":1152,"end_s":1153,"word_count":35,"indexable":14},190,"85373","Will someone, 20 years from now, look back and say, Flávio, we were not guilty of having given an unsustainable increase?",1698.84,1704.9,{"idx":1155,"utterance_id":1156,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1157,"start_s":1158,"end_s":1159,"word_count":44,"indexable":14},191,"85374","Is there any concern about that?",1705.2,1706.62,{"idx":1161,"utterance_id":1162,"speaker_name":8,"speaker_slug":9,"text":1163,"start_s":1164,"end_s":1165,"word_count":97,"indexable":14},192,"85375","Or can you say it is a sustainable development plan for the State?",1707.1,1711.58,{"idx":1167,"utterance_id":1168,"speaker_name":24,"text":1169,"start_s":1170,"end_s":1171,"word_count":120,"indexable":14},193,"85376","Haddad, when we do planning, of course you establish a set of more or less reasonable assumptions.",1711.96,1720.02,{"idx":1173,"utterance_id":1174,"speaker_name":24,"text":1175,"start_s":1176,"end_s":1177,"word_count":51,"indexable":14},194,"85377","So, unless there is...",1720.18,1722.1,{"idx":1179,"utterance_id":1180,"speaker_name":24,"text":1181,"start_s":1182,"end_s":1183,"word_count":22,"indexable":14},195,"85378","No exaggerations.",1722.14,1722.82,{"idx":1185,"utterance_id":1186,"speaker_name":24,"text":1187,"start_s":1188,"end_s":1189,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},196,"85379","Neither optimistic nor pessimistic.",1723.72,1725.44,{"idx":1191,"utterance_id":1192,"speaker_name":24,"text":1193,"start_s":1194,"end_s":1195,"word_count":126,"indexable":14},197,"85380","So, if there is a deepening of the national economic disaster, no government... will be able to sustain its public policies.",1725.52,1734.34,{"idx":1197,"utterance_id":1198,"speaker_name":24,"text":1199,"start_s":1200,"end_s":1201,"word_count":140,"indexable":14},198,"85381","In fact, we are seeing this in relation to the federal government and state and municipal governments, in general, will also not be able to.",1734.44,1741.02,{"idx":1203,"utterance_id":1204,"speaker_name":24,"text":1205,"start_s":1206,"end_s":1207,"word_count":114,"indexable":14},199,"85382","So we always take into account, in the set of decisions we must make, a reasonable scenario.",1741.46,1748.28,{"idx":1209,"utterance_id":1210,"speaker_name":24,"text":1211,"start_s":1212,"end_s":1213,"word_count":170,"indexable":14},200,"85383","at this point, neither imagining that GDP will grow 7%, 8%, 10%, nor betting that the recession will last another 4 or 5 years.",1748.6,1757.34,{"idx":1215,"utterance_id":1216,"speaker_name":24,"text":1217,"start_s":1218,"end_s":1219,"word_count":187,"indexable":14},201,"85384","So we imagine that under reasonable conditions, conditions similar to those we have today, with very small GDP growth, even so we can maintain what we have today.",1757.76,1770.08,{"idx":1221,"utterance_id":1222,"speaker_name":24,"text":1223,"start_s":1224,"end_s":1225,"word_count":58,"indexable":14},202,"85385","What we will be able to do is expand.",1770.54,1772.58,{"idx":1227,"utterance_id":1228,"speaker_name":24,"text":1229,"start_s":1230,"end_s":1231,"word_count":120,"indexable":14},203,"85386","Today we have a restraint in adopting new measures, precisely because we are concerned with sustainability.",1773.5,1781.38,{"idx":1233,"utterance_id":1234,"speaker_name":24,"text":1235,"start_s":1236,"end_s":1237,"word_count":114,"indexable":14},204,"85387","For example, the limit of the fiscal responsibility law, regarding spending with personnel.",1781.72,1786.9,{"idx":1239,"utterance_id":1240,"speaker_name":24,"text":1241,"start_s":1242,"end_s":1243,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},205,"85388","We reached the ceiling.",1787.28,1788.4,{"idx":1245,"utterance_id":1246,"speaker_name":24,"text":1247,"start_s":1248,"end_s":1249,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},206,"85389","So, in the case of the executive, we are at the limit called the prudential limit.",1788.84,1793.12,{"idx":1251,"utterance_id":1252,"speaker_name":24,"text":1253,"start_s":1254,"end_s":1255,"word_count":69,"indexable":14},207,"85390","We are not at the maximum limit, we are at the prudential limit.",1793.52,1796.56,{"idx":1257,"utterance_id":1258,"speaker_name":24,"text":1259,"start_s":1260,"end_s":1261,"word_count":85,"indexable":14},208,"85391","As the terminology indicates, it is the sign that we must be cautious.",1796.78,1802,{"idx":1263,"utterance_id":1264,"speaker_name":24,"text":1265,"start_s":1266,"end_s":1267,"word_count":58,"indexable":14},209,"85392","in expanding personnel spending.",1802.38,1804.22,{"idx":1269,"utterance_id":1270,"speaker_name":24,"text":1271,"start_s":1272,"end_s":1273,"word_count":228,"indexable":14},210,"85393","We adopted this this year, since last year, precisely to ensure that there is sustainability and tomorrow I am not, before the Tribunal of History, accused of having been the one who disorganized the public finances of the State.",1804.38,1817.48,{"idx":1275,"utterance_id":1276,"speaker_name":24,"text":1277,"start_s":1278,"end_s":1279,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},211,"85394","Certainly that will not happen, because we have that... respect for this double pillar.",1817.58,1824.18,{"idx":1281,"utterance_id":1282,"speaker_name":24,"text":1283,"start_s":1284,"end_s":1285,"word_count":120,"indexable":14},212,"85395","On the one hand, social responsibility, on the other, fiscal responsibility, because one does not go without the other.",1824.56,1830.36,{"idx":1287,"utterance_id":1288,"speaker_name":24,"text":1289,"start_s":1290,"end_s":1291,"word_count":176,"indexable":14},213,"85396","If you do not look at both at the same time, you end up leading public finances to disaster and undermining the continuity of governments, which are fundamental.",1830.88,1840.68,{"idx":1293,"utterance_id":1294,"speaker_name":24,"text":1295,"start_s":1296,"end_s":1297,"word_count":22,"indexable":14},214,"85397","Thank you, Flávio.",1840.72,1841.3,{"idx":1299,"utterance_id":1300,"speaker_name":24,"text":1301,"start_s":1302,"end_s":1303,"word_count":37,"indexable":14},215,"85398","A great pleasure, Adair.",1841.76,1842.56,{"idx":1305,"utterance_id":1306,"speaker_name":24,"text":1307,"start_s":1308,"end_s":1309,"word_count":22,"indexable":14},216,"85399","Great honor.",1842.6,1843.06,{"idx":1311,"utterance_id":1312,"speaker_name":24,"text":1313,"start_s":1314,"end_s":1315,"word_count":49,"indexable":14},217,"85400","I have the impression that this dialogue won't be resolved in days, but in years.",1843.12,1846.1,{"idx":1317,"utterance_id":1318,"speaker_name":24,"text":1319,"start_s":1320,"end_s":1321,"word_count":30,"indexable":14},218,"85401","God willing.",1846.16,1860.12,{"idx":1323,"utterance_id":1324,"speaker_name":24,"text":1325,"start_s":1326,"end_s":1327,"word_count":22,"indexable":14},219,"85402","A hug.",1860.16,1860.32,"en",{"job_id":1330,"title":1331,"source_url":1332,"platform":1333,"content_type":1334,"published_at":1335,"duration_sec":1336,"n_classified":1337,"speakers":1338},"e56b3fae-4268-470e-9216-ce35d117d8fb","PAINEL HADDAD (16\u002F09\u002F2019) - FLAVIO DINO (parte 2)","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002Fwatch?v=Tibr5eNwcy4","youtube","video","2019-09-16T23:00:11Z",1860.336375,220,[1339],{"name":8,"slug":9,"n_falas":388},"https:\u002F\u002Fi.ytimg.com\u002Fvi\u002FTibr5eNwcy4\u002Fhqdefault.jpg",{"limit":28,"offset":6,"topics":1342,"total":1386},[1343,1347,1352,1357,1362,1367,1371,1375,1379,1383],{"label":1344,"n_speakers":170,"n_utterances":1345,"n_videos":1149,"slug":1346},"National Security",2695,"seguranca-nacional",{"label":1348,"n_speakers":151,"n_utterances":1349,"n_videos":1350,"slug":1351},"Education",1685,229,"educacao",{"label":1353,"n_speakers":35,"n_utterances":1354,"n_videos":1355,"slug":1356},"Public Safety and Order",1580,244,"seguranca-publica-e-ordem",{"label":1358,"n_speakers":211,"n_utterances":1359,"n_videos":1360,"slug":1361},"Combating Impunity",1469,292,"combate-a-impunidade",{"label":1363,"n_speakers":151,"n_utterances":1364,"n_videos":1365,"slug":1366},"Monetary Policy",1448,303,"politica-monetaria",{"label":1368,"n_speakers":35,"n_utterances":1369,"n_videos":903,"slug":1370},"Judiciary",846,"poder-judiciario",{"label":1372,"n_speakers":13,"n_utterances":1373,"n_videos":1077,"slug":1374},"Public Service",788,"servico-publico",{"label":1376,"n_speakers":164,"n_utterances":1377,"n_videos":843,"slug":1378},"Public Health \u002F Public Safety",756,"saude-publica-seguranca-publica",{"label":1380,"n_speakers":13,"n_utterances":1381,"n_videos":1191,"slug":1382},"Social Policy",684,"politica-social",{"label":1384,"n_speakers":146,"n_utterances":535,"n_videos":813,"slug":1385},"Fiscal Reform","reforma-fiscal",625,{"limit":28,"offset":6,"speakers":1388,"total":138},[1389,1403,1416,1427,1433,1444,1455,1464,1471,1480],{"slug":1390,"name":1391,"party":1392,"role":1392,"state":1392,"n_speeches":1393,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1394,"photo_url":1398,"bio_short":1392,"wikidata_id":1399,"mandate_status":1400,"social_links":1401},"renan-santos","Renan Santos","",22525,[1395,1396,1397],"Abuse of Authority","Administrative and Labor Reform","Affirmative action","\u002Fprofiles\u002Frenan-santos\u002Fphoto.png","Q51882553","none",{"twitter":1402},"@RenanSantosMBL",{"slug":1404,"name":1405,"party":1392,"role":1392,"state":1406,"n_speeches":1407,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1408,"photo_url":1412,"bio_short":1392,"wikidata_id":1413,"mandate_status":1400,"social_links":1414},"romeu-zema","Romeu Zema","MG",12888,[1409,1410,1411],"Agriculture & Agribusiness","Amnesty and Jan 8 Characterization","Anti-Discrimination","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fromeu-zema\u002Fphoto.png","Q57092113",{"twitter":1415},"@RomeuZema",{"slug":1417,"name":1418,"party":1392,"role":1392,"state":1392,"n_speeches":1419,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1420,"bio_short":1392,"mandate_status":1400,"social_links":1424},"pablo-marcal","Pablo Marçal",12772,[1421,1422,1423],"Agricultural Policy","Business Environment","Campaign Financing",{"twitter":1425,"youtube":1426},"@pablomarcal","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002F@pablomarcall",{"slug":9,"name":8,"party":1392,"role":1392,"state":1428,"n_speeches":1429,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1430,"bio_short":1392,"wikidata_id":1431,"mandate_status":1400,"social_links":1432},"SP",12647,[1421,1409,1411],"Q3069485",{},{"slug":1434,"name":1435,"party":1392,"role":1392,"state":1436,"n_speeches":1437,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1438,"photo_url":1440,"bio_short":1392,"wikidata_id":1441,"mandate_status":1400,"social_links":1442},"ronaldo-caiado","Ronaldo Caiado","GO",12538,[1396,1397,1439],"Agribusiness & Regional Development","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fronaldo-caiado\u002Fphoto.png","Q10364348",{"twitter":1443},"@ronaldocaiado",{"slug":1445,"name":1446,"party":1392,"role":1447,"state":1428,"n_speeches":1448,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1449,"photo_url":1451,"bio_short":1392,"wikidata_id":1452,"mandate_status":1400,"social_links":1453},"tarcisio","Tarcisio","Governador",11298,[1450,1421,1409],"Age of Criminal Responsibility","\u002Fprofiles\u002Ftarcisio\u002Fphoto.png","Q60392579",{"twitter":1454},"tarcisiogdf",{"slug":1456,"name":1457,"party":1392,"role":1392,"state":1392,"n_speeches":1458,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1459,"photo_url":1461,"bio_short":1392,"wikidata_id":1462,"mandate_status":1400,"social_links":1463},"luis-inacio-lula-da-silva","Luis Inacio Lula da Silva",10531,[1421,1409,1460],"Benefits fraud & efficiency","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fluis-inacio-lula-da-silva\u002Fphoto.png","Q37181",{},{"slug":1465,"name":1466,"party":1392,"role":1392,"state":1392,"n_speeches":1467,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1468,"bio_short":1392,"mandate_status":1400,"social_links":1470},"augusto-cury","Augusto Cury",8912,[1439,1469,1421],"Agribusiness \u002F Environment",{},{"slug":1472,"name":1473,"party":1392,"role":1392,"state":1428,"n_speeches":1474,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1475,"photo_url":1476,"bio_short":1392,"wikidata_id":1477,"mandate_status":1400,"social_links":1478},"kim-kataguiri","Kim Kataguiri",8748,[1396,1450,1409],"\u002Fprofiles\u002Fkim-kataguiri\u002Fphoto.png","Q21715169",{"twitter":1479},"@KimKataguiri",{"slug":1481,"name":1482,"party":1392,"role":1392,"state":1483,"n_speeches":1484,"consistency_score":6,"top_topics":1485,"photo_url":1487,"bio_short":1392,"wikidata_id":1488,"mandate_status":1400,"social_links":1489},"flavio-bolsonaro","Flavio Bolsonaro","RJ",8066,[1421,1409,1486],"Anti-Fascism","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fflavio-bolsonaro\u002Fphoto.png","Q10283057",{"twitter":1490},"@FlavioBolsonaro"]