[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"footer-top-topics-en":3,"transcript-b54e4e51-82ab-4f33-aa81-69910cbe98f0-en":65,"transcript-poster-b54e4e51-82ab-4f33-aa81-69910cbe98f0":1100,"footer-top-speakers-en":1101},{"limit":4,"offset":5,"topics":6,"total":64},10,0,[7,13,19,25,31,36,41,47,53,58],{"label":8,"n_speakers":9,"n_utterances":10,"n_videos":11,"slug":12},"National Security",26,2695,190,"seguranca-nacional",{"label":14,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":16,"n_videos":17,"slug":18},"Education",32,1685,229,"educacao",{"label":20,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":22,"n_videos":23,"slug":24},"Public Safety and Order",23,1580,244,"seguranca-publica-e-ordem",{"label":26,"n_speakers":27,"n_utterances":28,"n_videos":29,"slug":30},"Combating Impunity",33,1469,292,"combate-a-impunidade",{"label":32,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":33,"n_videos":34,"slug":35},"Monetary Policy",1448,303,"politica-monetaria",{"label":37,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":38,"n_videos":39,"slug":40},"Judiciary",846,149,"poder-judiciario",{"label":42,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":44,"n_videos":45,"slug":46},"Public Service",28,788,178,"servico-publico",{"label":48,"n_speakers":49,"n_utterances":50,"n_videos":51,"slug":52},"Public Health \u002F Public Safety",25,756,139,"saude-publica-seguranca-publica",{"label":54,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":55,"n_videos":56,"slug":57},"Social Policy",684,197,"politica-social",{"label":59,"n_speakers":60,"n_utterances":61,"n_videos":62,"slug":63},"Fiscal Reform",22,671,134,"reforma-fiscal",625,{"falas":66,"lang":1085,"meta":1086},[67,75,82,88,95,101,107,112,118,124,130,135,141,147,153,160,167,172,177,182,188,194,199,204,211,217,222,227,233,238,245,251,256,261,266,272,278,284,290,296,302,309,318,324,330,336,341,347,353,359,365,371,377,382,388,394,400,405,411,417,423,429,435,441,447,453,459,465,471,477,483,489,495,501,507,513,519,525,531,537,543,549,555,561,567,573,578,584,590,596,602,608,614,620,626,632,638,644,650,656,662,668,674,680,686,692,698,704,710,716,722,728,734,740,746,752,758,764,770,776,782,788,794,800,806,812,818,824,830,836,842,848,854,860,866,871,877,883,889,895,900,906,912,918,924,930,936,942,948,954,959,965,971,977,983,989,995,1001,1007,1013,1019,1025,1031,1037,1043,1049,1055,1061,1067,1073,1079],{"idx":5,"utterance_id":68,"speaker_name":69,"text":70,"start_s":71,"end_s":72,"word_count":73,"indexable":74},"79020","Desconhecido","It's very easy while in office to improve people's living conditions by condemning their future.",0.06,5.18,16,false,{"idx":76,"utterance_id":77,"speaker_name":69,"text":78,"start_s":79,"end_s":80,"word_count":81,"indexable":74},1,"79021","Okay, okay.",5.4,5.72,2,{"idx":81,"utterance_id":83,"speaker_name":69,"text":84,"start_s":85,"end_s":86,"word_count":87,"indexable":74},"79022","I'm going to make an analogy.",5.76,7.58,5,{"idx":89,"utterance_id":90,"speaker_name":69,"text":91,"start_s":92,"end_s":93,"word_count":94,"indexable":74},3,"79023","Is it going to arrive next year?",8.4,9.38,6,{"idx":96,"utterance_id":97,"speaker_name":69,"text":98,"start_s":99,"end_s":100,"word_count":76,"indexable":74},4,"79024","It's over.",9.58,9.88,{"idx":87,"utterance_id":102,"speaker_name":69,"text":103,"start_s":104,"end_s":105,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},"79025","I won't have any money to eat.",10.16,10.98,7,{"idx":94,"utterance_id":108,"speaker_name":69,"text":109,"start_s":110,"end_s":111,"word_count":4,"indexable":74},"79026","What we're talking about here is the following.",11.46,13,{"idx":106,"utterance_id":113,"speaker_name":69,"text":114,"start_s":115,"end_s":116,"word_count":117,"indexable":74},"79027","I think the voter does know what's good.",13.08,17.14,12,{"idx":119,"utterance_id":120,"speaker_name":69,"text":121,"start_s":122,"end_s":123,"word_count":21,"indexable":74},8,"79028","So much so that Lula left his first term with very high approval, and his second with very high approval, because of the inclusion he promoted.",17.86,26.32,{"idx":125,"utterance_id":126,"speaker_name":69,"text":127,"start_s":128,"end_s":129,"word_count":76,"indexable":74},9,"79029","He promoted.",26.6,27.02,{"idx":4,"utterance_id":131,"speaker_name":69,"text":132,"start_s":133,"end_s":134,"word_count":111,"indexable":74},"79030","You can disagree with the way it was done, but there was strong inclusion.",27.56,32.68,{"idx":136,"utterance_id":137,"speaker_name":69,"text":138,"start_s":139,"end_s":140,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},11,"79031","Many people in universities.",33.28,35.36,{"idx":117,"utterance_id":142,"speaker_name":69,"text":143,"start_s":144,"end_s":145,"word_count":146,"indexable":74},"79032","I have huge criticisms of FIES because I think it was a drain, it didn't have indicators, but there were a lot of people.",36.74,44.32,21,{"idx":111,"utterance_id":148,"speaker_name":69,"text":149,"start_s":150,"end_s":151,"word_count":152,"indexable":74},"79033","And this same voter, I mean, why doesn't Lula have today what he had in the past?",45.54,52.16,17,{"idx":154,"utterance_id":155,"speaker_name":69,"text":156,"start_s":157,"end_s":158,"word_count":159,"indexable":74},14,"79034","Because you had along the way some governments, especially Dilma's government, which brought a very strong recession, in which he had to give up everything he had achieved.",52.7,65.18,31,{"idx":161,"utterance_id":162,"speaker_name":69,"text":163,"start_s":164,"end_s":165,"word_count":166,"indexable":74},15,"79035","So the young man who was at university, the young woman who had gone to university with FIES.",65.3,71.84,18,{"idx":73,"utterance_id":168,"speaker_name":69,"text":169,"start_s":170,"end_s":171,"word_count":166,"indexable":74},"79036","They had to give up, had to go back to work, couldn't continue, and so on.",72.44,77.78,{"idx":152,"utterance_id":173,"speaker_name":69,"text":174,"start_s":175,"end_s":176,"word_count":119,"indexable":74},"79037","And that punished Lula, punished the PT.",78.18,80.1,{"idx":166,"utterance_id":178,"speaker_name":69,"text":179,"start_s":180,"end_s":181,"word_count":4,"indexable":74},"79038","PT doesn't have today what it had in the past.",81.6,83.56,{"idx":183,"utterance_id":184,"speaker_name":69,"text":185,"start_s":186,"end_s":187,"word_count":43,"indexable":74},19,"79039","And I think it's because, I think that politicians who promote well-being and actually achieve it will be recognized by voters.",84.16,96.58,{"idx":189,"utterance_id":190,"speaker_name":69,"text":191,"start_s":192,"end_s":193,"word_count":189,"indexable":74},20,"79040","A voter won't... give up a politician who... a mayor, a governor... We disagree about many things.",96.92,106.12,{"idx":146,"utterance_id":195,"speaker_name":69,"text":196,"start_s":197,"end_s":198,"word_count":4,"indexable":74},"79041","A mayor or a governor who brings you well-being, people.",106.16,110.86,{"idx":60,"utterance_id":200,"speaker_name":69,"text":201,"start_s":202,"end_s":203,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},"79042","How's that supposed to work?",110.94,111.62,{"idx":21,"utterance_id":205,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":208,"start_s":209,"end_s":210,"word_count":87,"indexable":74},"79043","Kim Kataguiri","kim-kataguiri","First point, Mara, look.",112.04,113.1,{"idx":212,"utterance_id":213,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":214,"start_s":215,"end_s":216,"word_count":21,"indexable":74},24,"79044","The argument you brought to say that voters know how to vote is that Lula left his first two terms popular.",113.98,120.74,{"idx":49,"utterance_id":218,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":219,"start_s":220,"end_s":221,"word_count":81,"indexable":74},"79045","Because of inclusion.",121.04,121.46,{"idx":9,"utterance_id":223,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":224,"start_s":225,"end_s":226,"word_count":87,"indexable":74},"79046","Because his government included people.",121.5,123.26,{"idx":228,"utterance_id":229,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":230,"start_s":231,"end_s":232,"word_count":119,"indexable":74},27,"79047","And here I will disagree with that first point.",123.76,125.16,{"idx":43,"utterance_id":234,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":235,"start_s":236,"end_s":237,"word_count":87,"indexable":74},"79048","Lula's government did not include.",125.58,126.82,{"idx":239,"utterance_id":240,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":241,"start_s":242,"end_s":243,"word_count":244,"indexable":74},29,"79049","There is a very good study I've seen presented by Marcos Lisboa — he didn't do it, but he promotes it — that shows all developing countries, all our peers, experienced a sharp decline in poverty, a sharp decline in hunger and an increase in average income.",127.44,146.3,52,{"idx":246,"utterance_id":247,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":248,"start_s":249,"end_s":250,"word_count":166,"indexable":74},30,"79050","But, compared to our peers, the decline in our poverty and hunger was smaller.",146.72,152.54,{"idx":159,"utterance_id":252,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":253,"start_s":254,"end_s":255,"word_count":87,"indexable":74},"79051","So, it was a global phenomenon.",153.08,155.16,{"idx":15,"utterance_id":257,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":258,"start_s":259,"end_s":260,"word_count":94,"indexable":74},"79052","with China growing 10% a year.",155.84,157.5,{"idx":27,"utterance_id":262,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":263,"start_s":264,"end_s":265,"word_count":119,"indexable":74},"79053","All developing countries benefited from that.",158.04,160.44,{"idx":267,"utterance_id":268,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":269,"start_s":270,"end_s":271,"word_count":152,"indexable":74},34,"79054","And because of Lula's government, we lost that opportunity to transform into a developed country.",160.96,165.98,{"idx":273,"utterance_id":274,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":275,"start_s":276,"end_s":277,"word_count":166,"indexable":74},35,"79055","Lula could have left his second term with Brazil more powerful, richer than Chile.",166.48,172.54,{"idx":279,"utterance_id":280,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":281,"start_s":282,"end_s":283,"word_count":146,"indexable":74},36,"79056","Chile took advantage of that opportunity better than we did and reached the brink of almost becoming a developed country.",172.72,178.84,{"idx":285,"utterance_id":286,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":287,"start_s":288,"end_s":289,"word_count":228,"indexable":74},37,"79057","Afterwards there was a problem with direction, but if you say... The proof of the quality of the voter's vote is Lula leaving his second term popular.",179.16,186.82,{"idx":291,"utterance_id":292,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":293,"start_s":294,"end_s":295,"word_count":146,"indexable":74},38,"79058","Then voters didn't understand that Dilma's government's crisis was also a consequence of the mandatory spending incurred under Lula.",186.9,193.5,{"idx":297,"utterance_id":298,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":299,"start_s":300,"end_s":301,"word_count":73,"indexable":74},39,"79059","It was also a consequence of hundreds of billions in privileges granted to the private elite by Lula.",193.94,199.64,{"idx":303,"utterance_id":304,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":305,"start_s":306,"end_s":307,"word_count":308,"indexable":74},40,"79060","So, this connection wasn't made and the fact that we... If people had perceived the historical opportunity we lost in Lula 1 and Lula 2 to... transform Brazil into a developed country, Lula would have been, like, banished from political life.",199.96,215.88,45,{"idx":310,"utterance_id":311,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":314,"start_s":315,"end_s":316,"word_count":317,"indexable":74},41,"79061","Renan Santos","renan-santos","And then people created a paternalistic bond with Lula, that Lula delivered to them, bestowed upon them, let's say, that small material gain they had in their lives, which would have happened anyway, and in fact would have happened with greater intensity if Serra had won instead of Lula in 2002.",216.4,230.58,56,{"idx":319,"utterance_id":320,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":321,"start_s":322,"end_s":323,"word_count":246,"indexable":74},42,"79062","But at the end of the day, this decision — therefore an irrational decision — you can't even say it's a big decision of Heitor; it's, let's say, at the macro level.",230.92,237.46,{"idx":325,"utterance_id":326,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":327,"start_s":328,"end_s":329,"word_count":111,"indexable":74},43,"79063","When I take it to the micro level, Mara, you... won't be able to defend that thesis.",238,241.66,{"idx":331,"utterance_id":332,"speaker_name":69,"text":333,"start_s":334,"end_s":335,"word_count":89,"indexable":74},44,"79064","Look, deputy...",241.72,242.94,{"idx":308,"utterance_id":337,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":338,"start_s":339,"end_s":340,"word_count":228,"indexable":74},"79065","If I go to a municipal government in the interior, the municipalities in the poorest parts of Brazil that don't change the HDI, people reelect their politicians.",243.28,250.44,{"idx":342,"utterance_id":343,"speaker_name":69,"text":344,"start_s":345,"end_s":346,"word_count":166,"indexable":74},46,"79066","But look, regarding the first and second terms, there was inclusion and that voter rewarded him.",250.52,256.16,{"idx":348,"utterance_id":349,"speaker_name":69,"text":350,"start_s":351,"end_s":352,"word_count":310,"indexable":74},47,"79067","I agree that you made a point I've even heard from some PT members who have serious criticisms: this was based too much on consumption, on credit, and not on state investments that would be sustained.",256.6,273.2,{"idx":354,"utterance_id":355,"speaker_name":69,"text":356,"start_s":357,"end_s":358,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},48,"79068","So it's a much deeper discussion.",273.26,276.16,{"idx":360,"utterance_id":361,"speaker_name":69,"text":362,"start_s":363,"end_s":364,"word_count":297,"indexable":74},49,"79069","And I agree that we need that discussion, including on long-term projects, state projects that don't hand over in the next government all those inclusion achievements they had, which is a much deeper analysis.",276.4,290.58,{"idx":366,"utterance_id":367,"speaker_name":69,"text":368,"start_s":369,"end_s":370,"word_count":111,"indexable":74},50,"79070","But the voter... did he reward the guy who improved his life?",290.7,296.48,{"idx":372,"utterance_id":373,"speaker_name":69,"text":374,"start_s":375,"end_s":376,"word_count":76,"indexable":74},51,"79071","He rewarded him.",296.72,297.12,{"idx":244,"utterance_id":378,"speaker_name":69,"text":379,"start_s":380,"end_s":381,"word_count":154,"indexable":74},"79072","And later the voter punished the same guy who took away a good part of that.",297.86,305.02,{"idx":383,"utterance_id":384,"speaker_name":69,"text":385,"start_s":386,"end_s":387,"word_count":4,"indexable":74},53,"79073","Lula doesn't have today what he had in the past.",305.14,308.48,{"idx":389,"utterance_id":390,"speaker_name":69,"text":391,"start_s":392,"end_s":393,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},54,"79074","Lula never won in the first round.",308.52,309.66,{"idx":395,"utterance_id":396,"speaker_name":69,"text":397,"start_s":398,"end_s":399,"word_count":136,"indexable":74},55,"79075","Okay, but he didn't have any of what he had in the past.",310.52,312.44,{"idx":317,"utterance_id":401,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":402,"start_s":403,"end_s":404,"word_count":166,"indexable":74},"79076","Dilma was re-elected in 2014 with that crisis happening, with Lava Jato happening, with companies closing.",312.48,319.16,{"idx":406,"utterance_id":407,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":408,"start_s":409,"end_s":410,"word_count":4,"indexable":74},57,"79077","And then, when Haddad went to the next election.",320.02,321.96,{"idx":412,"utterance_id":413,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":414,"start_s":415,"end_s":416,"word_count":136,"indexable":74},58,"79078","With the PT imprisoned, Bolsonaro doesn't win in the first round.",322.02,324.58,{"idx":418,"utterance_id":419,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":420,"start_s":421,"end_s":422,"word_count":117,"indexable":74},59,"79079","Haddad picked up Lula's legacy and got more than 40%.",324.78,326.98,{"idx":424,"utterance_id":425,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":426,"start_s":427,"end_s":428,"word_count":111,"indexable":74},60,"79080","And if there had been two more weeks of campaigning, Haddad would have caught up to Bolsonaro.",327.2,330.78,{"idx":430,"utterance_id":431,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":432,"start_s":433,"end_s":434,"word_count":87,"indexable":74},61,"79081","Those are Bolsonaro's own words.",331.08,332.3,{"idx":436,"utterance_id":437,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":438,"start_s":439,"end_s":440,"word_count":228,"indexable":74},62,"79082","If I look at that historical series, we'll realize that Lula actually forged an identity-based vote with much of his electorate.",333.52,341.18,{"idx":442,"utterance_id":443,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":444,"start_s":445,"end_s":446,"word_count":4,"indexable":74},63,"79083","An identity vote based on the messianic figure he created.",342.14,344.72,{"idx":448,"utterance_id":449,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":450,"start_s":451,"end_s":452,"word_count":154,"indexable":74},64,"79084","Those people saw him as a fresh start in changing their lives, eventually.",346,350.78,{"idx":454,"utterance_id":455,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":456,"start_s":457,"end_s":458,"word_count":166,"indexable":74},65,"79085","And because he's a guy, let's say, who people identify with, even in terms of identity, right?",350.9,354.6,{"idx":460,"utterance_id":461,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":462,"start_s":463,"end_s":464,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},66,"79086","With that Northeastern voter.",354.98,356.04,{"idx":466,"utterance_id":467,"speaker_name":69,"text":468,"start_s":469,"end_s":470,"word_count":89,"indexable":74},67,"79087","Because of his background.",356.08,357.28,{"idx":472,"utterance_id":473,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":474,"start_s":475,"end_s":476,"word_count":81,"indexable":74},68,"79088","They made that link.",357.7,358.28,{"idx":478,"utterance_id":479,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":480,"start_s":481,"end_s":482,"word_count":152,"indexable":74},69,"79089","You can't say that's exactly rational, that the voter is making a sound decision.",358.62,361.72,{"idx":484,"utterance_id":485,"speaker_name":69,"text":486,"start_s":487,"end_s":488,"word_count":73,"indexable":74},70,"79090","But my point is, if you improve that person's living conditions, they will (reward you).",362.14,368.96,{"idx":490,"utterance_id":491,"speaker_name":69,"text":492,"start_s":493,"end_s":494,"word_count":4,"indexable":74},71,"79091","They don't get into the depth of the reasoning you just made.",369.42,376.4,{"idx":496,"utterance_id":497,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":498,"start_s":499,"end_s":500,"word_count":94,"indexable":74},72,"79092","But this is a perverse incentive.",376.44,377.68,{"idx":502,"utterance_id":503,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":504,"start_s":505,"end_s":506,"word_count":73,"indexable":74},73,"79093","It's very easy, while in office, to improve people's living conditions by condemning their future.",378.02,383.08,{"idx":508,"utterance_id":509,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":510,"start_s":511,"end_s":512,"word_count":94,"indexable":74},74,"79094","It's the same as the following.",383.14,383.94,{"idx":514,"utterance_id":515,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":516,"start_s":517,"end_s":518,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},75,"79095","I'll make a very simple analogy.",383.98,385.9,{"idx":520,"utterance_id":521,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":522,"start_s":523,"end_s":524,"word_count":89,"indexable":74},76,"79096","It's very easy.",388,388.64,{"idx":526,"utterance_id":527,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":528,"start_s":529,"end_s":530,"word_count":60,"indexable":74},77,"79097","I can take my standard of living today and increase it—say—five, six, seven times over this year, easily.",388.76,396.94,{"idx":532,"utterance_id":533,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":534,"start_s":535,"end_s":536,"word_count":76,"indexable":74},78,"79098","How?",397.1,397.42,{"idx":538,"utterance_id":539,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":540,"start_s":541,"end_s":542,"word_count":161,"indexable":74},79,"79099","The same way I can increase people's standard of living by governing them.",397.9,401,{"idx":544,"utterance_id":545,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":546,"start_s":547,"end_s":548,"word_count":152,"indexable":74},80,"79100","I take my credit card, max out the limit every month and pay the minimum.",401.04,405.58,{"idx":550,"utterance_id":551,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":552,"start_s":553,"end_s":554,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},81,"79101","What will happen?",406.24,406.94,{"idx":556,"utterance_id":557,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":558,"start_s":559,"end_s":560,"word_count":4,"indexable":74},82,"79102","I'm going to live a great life this year.",407.02,408.9,{"idx":562,"utterance_id":563,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":564,"start_s":565,"end_s":566,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},83,"79103","Come next year, it's over.",409.14,410.72,{"idx":568,"utterance_id":569,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":570,"start_s":571,"end_s":572,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},84,"79104","I won't have money to eat.",410.88,411.7,{"idx":574,"utterance_id":575,"speaker_name":69,"text":109,"start_s":576,"end_s":577,"word_count":4,"indexable":74},85,"79105",412.18,413.7,{"idx":579,"utterance_id":580,"speaker_name":69,"text":581,"start_s":582,"end_s":583,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},86,"79106","And on that point we'll agree.",414.48,417,{"idx":585,"utterance_id":586,"speaker_name":69,"text":587,"start_s":588,"end_s":589,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},87,"79107","I mean, populist measures.",417.12,418.82,{"idx":591,"utterance_id":592,"speaker_name":69,"text":593,"start_s":594,"end_s":595,"word_count":125,"indexable":74},88,"79108","The left and the right pursue those populist measures.",419.12,422.6,{"idx":597,"utterance_id":598,"speaker_name":69,"text":599,"start_s":600,"end_s":601,"word_count":87,"indexable":74},89,"79109","Either left or right.",422.8,424.22,{"idx":603,"utterance_id":604,"speaker_name":69,"text":605,"start_s":606,"end_s":607,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},90,"79110","And that's what has been happening.",424.72,426.7,{"idx":609,"utterance_id":610,"speaker_name":69,"text":611,"start_s":612,"end_s":613,"word_count":111,"indexable":74},91,"79111","They improve people's lives in the short term, because they're populist.",427.7,432.3,{"idx":615,"utterance_id":616,"speaker_name":69,"text":617,"start_s":618,"end_s":619,"word_count":372,"indexable":74},92,"79112","But what I'm saying is that these people who don't have that depth of reasoning... and who are worried—we live in a very unequal country—who are worried about feeding their children and putting them in school, they will reward, yes, whoever gives them a better standard of living.",432.6,449.44,{"idx":621,"utterance_id":622,"speaker_name":69,"text":623,"start_s":624,"end_s":625,"word_count":212,"indexable":74},93,"79113","They don't get into the structural issue that this is a populist thing and won't be sustained; it's not a government project.",449.8,456.98,{"idx":627,"utterance_id":628,"speaker_name":69,"text":629,"start_s":630,"end_s":631,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},94,"79114","That's voting poorly.",457.02,457.48,{"idx":633,"utterance_id":634,"speaker_name":69,"text":635,"start_s":636,"end_s":637,"word_count":76,"indexable":74},95,"79115","Okay.",457.54,458.36,{"idx":639,"utterance_id":640,"speaker_name":69,"text":641,"start_s":642,"end_s":643,"word_count":89,"indexable":74},96,"79116","That's it.",458.46,460.82,{"idx":645,"utterance_id":646,"speaker_name":69,"text":647,"start_s":648,"end_s":649,"word_count":73,"indexable":74},97,"79117","But what I'm saying is that they will reward whoever improves their life.",460.88,465.86,{"idx":651,"utterance_id":652,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":653,"start_s":654,"end_s":655,"word_count":76,"indexable":74},98,"79118","Do you understand?",466.02,466.28,{"idx":657,"utterance_id":658,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":659,"start_s":660,"end_s":661,"word_count":94,"indexable":74},99,"79119","That's what I'm saying.",466.38,467.52,{"idx":663,"utterance_id":664,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":665,"start_s":666,"end_s":667,"word_count":21,"indexable":74},100,"79120","I'm not even trying to take it to that level, because, in truth, this kind of thing will happen even in first-world countries.",467.56,471.52,{"idx":669,"utterance_id":670,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":671,"start_s":672,"end_s":673,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},101,"79121","So I'm not even operating at that level.",472.18,473.76,{"idx":675,"utterance_id":676,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":677,"start_s":678,"end_s":679,"word_count":136,"indexable":74},102,"79122","The level where the perversity occurs is more in micropolitics.",474.08,478.54,{"idx":681,"utterance_id":682,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":683,"start_s":684,"end_s":685,"word_count":73,"indexable":74},103,"79123","It's more municipal politics, state politics, and the politics of electing a deputy.",479,482.8,{"idx":687,"utterance_id":688,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":689,"start_s":690,"end_s":691,"word_count":146,"indexable":74},104,"79124","That one is, well, if the discussion about populism in the presidential vote was a flawed one, in municipal politics it's worse.",483.5,492.12,{"idx":693,"utterance_id":694,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":695,"start_s":696,"end_s":697,"word_count":159,"indexable":74},105,"79125","Because the basis of vote buying—the basis of municipal politics in Brazil, the basis of democracy in Brazil, if we understand it in municipal terms—is vote buying.",492.5,499.58,{"idx":699,"utterance_id":700,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":701,"start_s":702,"end_s":703,"word_count":125,"indexable":74},106,"79126","Therefore, there is no democracy when there's vote buying.",499.76,501.5,{"idx":705,"utterance_id":706,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":707,"start_s":708,"end_s":709,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},107,"79127","That's the basis.",502.08,502.76,{"idx":711,"utterance_id":712,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":713,"start_s":714,"end_s":715,"word_count":125,"indexable":74},108,"79128","And the TSS wants to have clear instruments to combat it.",502.88,505.2,{"idx":717,"utterance_id":718,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":719,"start_s":720,"end_s":721,"word_count":183,"indexable":74},109,"79129","We need to change the law; we need to criminalize heavily both those who sell and those who buy votes.",505.26,509.42,{"idx":723,"utterance_id":724,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":725,"start_s":726,"end_s":727,"word_count":4,"indexable":74},110,"79130","We end up... with half of the centrão parties doing this.",509.8,512.74,{"idx":729,"utterance_id":730,"speaker_name":69,"text":731,"start_s":732,"end_s":733,"word_count":89,"indexable":74},111,"79131","Here we agree.",512.92,514.72,{"idx":735,"utterance_id":736,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":737,"start_s":738,"end_s":739,"word_count":89,"indexable":74},112,"79132","We agree on one point.",515.88,517.16,{"idx":741,"utterance_id":742,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":743,"start_s":744,"end_s":745,"word_count":21,"indexable":74},113,"79133","But don't you also agree that having performance indicators so you can reward parties' performance isn't a bad thing?",517.32,523.46,{"idx":747,"utterance_id":748,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":749,"start_s":750,"end_s":751,"word_count":119,"indexable":74},114,"79134","Because you're not eliminating suffrage.",523.9,525.06,{"idx":753,"utterance_id":754,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":755,"start_s":756,"end_s":757,"word_count":87,"indexable":74},115,"79135","What you're saying is the following.",525.1,526.02,{"idx":759,"utterance_id":760,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":761,"start_s":762,"end_s":763,"word_count":117,"indexable":74},116,"79136","The incentive for the political class to offer better 'products' changes.",526.62,530.56,{"idx":765,"utterance_id":766,"speaker_name":206,"speaker_slug":207,"text":767,"start_s":768,"end_s":769,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},117,"79137","People keep voting.",531.02,531.98,{"idx":771,"utterance_id":772,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":773,"start_s":774,"end_s":775,"word_count":154,"indexable":74},118,"79138","Thus, if I have a candidate that I'm going to put forward for mayor of Jundiaí,",532.54,535.8,{"idx":777,"utterance_id":778,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":779,"start_s":780,"end_s":781,"word_count":21,"indexable":74},119,"79139","He won't be placed there simply to be a guy who will receive an earmark, say, from Kim to elect a deputy.",537.3,541.74,{"idx":783,"utterance_id":784,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":785,"start_s":786,"end_s":787,"word_count":161,"indexable":74},120,"79140","He will be placed there because he will determine whether the party will succeed.",541.84,544.88,{"idx":789,"utterance_id":790,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":791,"start_s":792,"end_s":793,"word_count":117,"indexable":74},121,"79141","And furthermore, if that politician doesn't deliver the indicators, he becomes ineligible.",545.32,549.98,{"idx":795,"utterance_id":796,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":797,"start_s":798,"end_s":799,"word_count":212,"indexable":74},122,"79142","Because what's the point of offering the community someone who doesn't actually improve people's lives while in office?",550.52,556.14,{"idx":801,"utterance_id":802,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":803,"start_s":804,"end_s":805,"word_count":279,"indexable":74},123,"79143","And then we change, because, Mara, one thing that's true... The great presidents in democracies who solved their countries' problems were men who at some point knew how to make intelligent use of the executive.",556.58,568.86,{"idx":807,"utterance_id":808,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":809,"start_s":810,"end_s":811,"word_count":87,"indexable":74},124,"79144","One example is Roosevelt.",569.56,570.34,{"idx":813,"utterance_id":814,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":815,"start_s":816,"end_s":817,"word_count":166,"indexable":74},125,"79145","Roosevelt was a man who knew how to use the executive to solve a colossal economic and political problem.",570.38,576.32,{"idx":819,"utterance_id":820,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":821,"start_s":822,"end_s":823,"word_count":111,"indexable":74},126,"79146","In that sense, we have to know how to empower the executive democratically.",577.62,585,{"idx":825,"utterance_id":826,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":827,"start_s":828,"end_s":829,"word_count":125,"indexable":74},127,"79147","Because the executive has to have means of action.",585.68,586.94,{"idx":831,"utterance_id":832,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":833,"start_s":834,"end_s":835,"word_count":183,"indexable":74},128,"79148","Why are Western democracies being questioned and largely losing out to the Asian model?",588.02,594.24,{"idx":837,"utterance_id":838,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":839,"start_s":840,"end_s":841,"word_count":117,"indexable":74},129,"79149","Because in the Asian model the executive has strength and execution.",594.74,597.64,{"idx":843,"utterance_id":844,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":845,"start_s":846,"end_s":847,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},130,"79150","And in the West, it doesn't.",598.2,599.46,{"idx":849,"utterance_id":850,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":851,"start_s":852,"end_s":853,"word_count":154,"indexable":74},131,"79151","In the West, the means of action and the power of execution are much curtailed.",599.86,603.08,{"idx":855,"utterance_id":856,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":857,"start_s":858,"end_s":859,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},132,"79152","Not only in Brazil.",603.6,604.24,{"idx":861,"utterance_id":862,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":863,"start_s":864,"end_s":865,"word_count":136,"indexable":74},133,"79153","In Brazil, I think it's the most serious case of all.",604.28,605.7,{"idx":62,"utterance_id":867,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":868,"start_s":869,"end_s":870,"word_count":166,"indexable":74},"79154","I looked at the reforms that the elected is implementing; they still have some power of action.",606.1,609.56,{"idx":872,"utterance_id":873,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":874,"start_s":875,"end_s":876,"word_count":4,"indexable":74},135,"79155","Here discretionary budget doesn't even exist anymore; everything is constitutionalized.",609.72,613.56,{"idx":878,"utterance_id":879,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":880,"start_s":881,"end_s":882,"word_count":94,"indexable":74},136,"79156","Here the executive doesn't command.",614.02,615.06,{"idx":884,"utterance_id":885,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":886,"start_s":887,"end_s":888,"word_count":146,"indexable":74},137,"79157","And a mayor, look, in our logic, a mayor is a mere instrument to help elect a deputy.",615.76,621.14,{"idx":890,"utterance_id":891,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":892,"start_s":893,"end_s":894,"word_count":159,"indexable":74},138,"79158","Think about it: the person who most transforms people's lives—the mayor—is an instrument, a puppet in a political game to elect those guys.",621.58,628.7,{"idx":51,"utterance_id":896,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":897,"start_s":898,"end_s":899,"word_count":136,"indexable":74},"79159","So when I look at it, we say, ah, long live democracy.",629.18,631.74,{"idx":901,"utterance_id":902,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":903,"start_s":904,"end_s":905,"word_count":136,"indexable":74},140,"79160","Yes, but our democracy needs to be understood in a Brazilian context.",632.08,635.42,{"idx":907,"utterance_id":908,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":909,"start_s":910,"end_s":911,"word_count":43,"indexable":74},141,"79161","The Brazilian model, based on local oligarchies, on a population that got used to vote buying, pure and simple populism, is not doing well for us.",636.14,644.14,{"idx":913,"utterance_id":914,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":915,"start_s":916,"end_s":917,"word_count":94,"indexable":74},142,"79162","Brazilian democracy is doing harm.",644.84,646.22,{"idx":919,"utterance_id":920,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":921,"start_s":922,"end_s":923,"word_count":189,"indexable":74},143,"79163","So we have to have a democracy adapted to Brazilian logic to cure us of our own vices.",646.72,651.16,{"idx":925,"utterance_id":926,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":927,"start_s":928,"end_s":929,"word_count":81,"indexable":74},144,"79164","But democratic.",652.8,653.52,{"idx":931,"utterance_id":932,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":933,"start_s":934,"end_s":935,"word_count":136,"indexable":74},145,"79165","But democratic, because I'm picking up your Chile thread.",653.96,655.94,{"idx":937,"utterance_id":938,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":939,"start_s":940,"end_s":941,"word_count":146,"indexable":74},146,"79166","Chile perhaps brought a very Anglo-Saxon perspective in the idea of individual emancipation, of high conscientiousness, which works a lot in Asia.",656.44,663.86,{"idx":943,"utterance_id":944,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":945,"start_s":946,"end_s":947,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},147,"79167","Asia is the logic of saving.",663.9,666.42,{"idx":949,"utterance_id":950,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":951,"start_s":952,"end_s":953,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},148,"79168","Every Chinese saves, every Vietnamese saves, every Korean saves.",666.7,669.76,{"idx":39,"utterance_id":955,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":956,"start_s":957,"end_s":958,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},"79169","The logic of saving is part of them.",669.82,671.3,{"idx":960,"utterance_id":961,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":962,"start_s":963,"end_s":964,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},150,"79170","Then there's the whole rice-culture aspect.",671.66,672.7,{"idx":966,"utterance_id":967,"speaker_name":69,"text":968,"start_s":969,"end_s":970,"word_count":119,"indexable":74},151,"79171","Then the problem is the excess of saving.",672.74,674.48,{"idx":972,"utterance_id":973,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":974,"start_s":975,"end_s":976,"word_count":76,"indexable":74},152,"79172","Exactly.",675.08,675.44,{"idx":978,"utterance_id":979,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":980,"start_s":981,"end_s":982,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},153,"79173","So they save a lot.",675.68,676.54,{"idx":984,"utterance_id":985,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":986,"start_s":987,"end_s":988,"word_count":161,"indexable":74},154,"79174","Here, that logic of conscientiousness, of long-term vision, of postponing reward is different.",677.48,682.36,{"idx":990,"utterance_id":991,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":992,"start_s":993,"end_s":994,"word_count":4,"indexable":74},155,"79175","So you have to create a culture that produces this, of course.",682.78,685.8,{"idx":996,"utterance_id":997,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":998,"start_s":999,"end_s":1000,"word_count":154,"indexable":74},156,"79176","But if at some point a person becomes unassisted, the State will have to act.",686.1,688.52,{"idx":1002,"utterance_id":1003,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":1004,"start_s":1005,"end_s":1006,"word_count":117,"indexable":74},157,"79177","So you're understanding that it's an adaptation of a liberal concept.",688.56,691.16,{"idx":1008,"utterance_id":1009,"speaker_name":312,"speaker_slug":313,"text":1010,"start_s":1011,"end_s":1012,"word_count":111,"indexable":74},158,"79178","You're not simply tropicalizing it; you're, I don't know, Andean-izing this logic in Chile.",691.2,695.56,{"idx":1014,"utterance_id":1015,"speaker_name":69,"text":1016,"start_s":1017,"end_s":1018,"word_count":87,"indexable":74},159,"79179","I think it's evolving, you see?",695.96,698.68,{"idx":1020,"utterance_id":1021,"speaker_name":69,"text":1022,"start_s":1023,"end_s":1024,"word_count":183,"indexable":74},160,"79180","They introduced, at the time they were celebrated—highly celebrated—several studies were done, etc., for the deep reform they implemented.",698.94,707.56,{"idx":1026,"utterance_id":1027,"speaker_name":69,"text":1028,"start_s":1029,"end_s":1030,"word_count":125,"indexable":74},161,"79181","And thirty years later, several flaws in the system emerged.",708.18,713.96,{"idx":1032,"utterance_id":1033,"speaker_name":69,"text":1034,"start_s":1035,"end_s":1036,"word_count":161,"indexable":74},162,"79182","Now, you said something that, if it had been Serra, would have been different.",714.52,718.74,{"idx":1038,"utterance_id":1039,"speaker_name":69,"text":1040,"start_s":1041,"end_s":1042,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},163,"79183","Did you vote for Serra?",718.78,719.38,{"idx":1044,"utterance_id":1045,"speaker_name":69,"text":1046,"start_s":1047,"end_s":1048,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},164,"79184","I voted, in 2002, I voted.",719.62,720.84,{"idx":1050,"utterance_id":1051,"speaker_name":69,"text":1052,"start_s":1053,"end_s":1054,"word_count":89,"indexable":74},165,"79185","Do you like him?",721.18,721.8,{"idx":1056,"utterance_id":1057,"speaker_name":69,"text":1058,"start_s":1059,"end_s":1060,"word_count":96,"indexable":74},166,"79186","Are you a tucano?",721.84,722.8,{"idx":1062,"utterance_id":1063,"speaker_name":69,"text":1064,"start_s":1065,"end_s":1066,"word_count":183,"indexable":74},167,"79187","No, I... Well, our enemies from Bolsonarism call themselves neo-tucanos, and I even understand why they call themselves that.",723.4,730.4,{"idx":1068,"utterance_id":1069,"speaker_name":69,"text":1070,"start_s":1071,"end_s":1072,"word_count":161,"indexable":74},168,"79188","Because PSDB was once a party formed by prominent figures when it emerged.",730.8,734.54,{"idx":1074,"utterance_id":1075,"speaker_name":69,"text":1076,"start_s":1077,"end_s":1078,"word_count":152,"indexable":74},169,"79189","And we, you know, look at the young man I have here, we have our top people here.",735.18,738.62,{"idx":1080,"utterance_id":1081,"speaker_name":69,"text":1082,"start_s":1083,"end_s":1084,"word_count":106,"indexable":74},170,"79190","So what happened was pretty progressive.",739.22,764.18,"en",{"job_id":1087,"title":1088,"source_url":1089,"platform":1090,"content_type":1091,"published_at":1092,"duration_sec":1093,"n_classified":1094,"speakers":1095},"b54e4e51-82ab-4f33-aa81-69910cbe98f0","Jornalista fez 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