[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"footer-top-topics-en":3,"transcript-ae008be4-ee82-46d5-8272-eb210ec4881b-en":65,"transcript-poster-ae008be4-ee82-46d5-8272-eb210ec4881b":1338,"footer-top-speakers-en":1339},{"limit":4,"offset":5,"topics":6,"total":64},10,0,[7,13,19,25,31,36,41,47,53,58],{"label":8,"n_speakers":9,"n_utterances":10,"n_videos":11,"slug":12},"National Security",26,2695,190,"seguranca-nacional",{"label":14,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":16,"n_videos":17,"slug":18},"Education",32,1685,229,"educacao",{"label":20,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":22,"n_videos":23,"slug":24},"Public Safety and Order",23,1580,244,"seguranca-publica-e-ordem",{"label":26,"n_speakers":27,"n_utterances":28,"n_videos":29,"slug":30},"Combating Impunity",33,1469,292,"combate-a-impunidade",{"label":32,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":33,"n_videos":34,"slug":35},"Monetary Policy",1448,303,"politica-monetaria",{"label":37,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":38,"n_videos":39,"slug":40},"Judiciary",846,149,"poder-judiciario",{"label":42,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":44,"n_videos":45,"slug":46},"Public Service",28,788,178,"servico-publico",{"label":48,"n_speakers":49,"n_utterances":50,"n_videos":51,"slug":52},"Public Health \u002F Public Safety",25,756,139,"saude-publica-seguranca-publica",{"label":54,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":55,"n_videos":56,"slug":57},"Social Policy",684,197,"politica-social",{"label":59,"n_speakers":60,"n_utterances":61,"n_videos":62,"slug":63},"Fiscal Reform",22,671,134,"reforma-fiscal",625,{"falas":66,"lang":1326,"meta":1327},[67,76,83,90,96,102,108,114,120,127,133,140,146,152,159,166,172,178,184,189,195,201,207,213,218,223,228,233,239,245,252,257,263,268,273,279,285,291,295,301,306,311,317,323,328,334,341,347,353,359,365,371,377,382,387,393,399,405,412,418,424,430,436,441,447,453,459,465,471,477,483,489,494,500,506,513,519,525,530,536,542,548,554,560,566,572,578,584,590,596,602,608,614,620,626,632,638,644,650,656,662,667,673,679,685,691,697,703,709,715,721,727,733,739,745,751,757,763,769,775,781,787,793,799,805,811,817,823,829,835,841,847,853,859,865,870,876,882,888,894,899,905,911,917,923,929,935,941,947,953,958,964,970,976,982,988,994,1000,1006,1012,1018,1024,1030,1036,1042,1048,1054,1060,1066,1072,1078,1084,1090,1096,1102,1108,1114,1120,1126,1131,1137,1143,1149,1155,1161,1167,1173,1179,1185,1191,1197,1202,1208,1214,1220,1226,1232,1238,1243,1249,1255,1261,1267,1273,1279,1285,1291,1297,1303,1309,1315,1321],{"idx":5,"utterance_id":68,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":71,"start_s":72,"end_s":73,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},"64950","Fernando Haddad","fernando-haddad","Hello, we're here again on OLTV and on various internet platforms to discuss the reality of our country and of Latin America.",9.66,18.46,24,false,{"idx":77,"utterance_id":78,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":79,"start_s":80,"end_s":81,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},1,"64951","My guest today is a professor of Economics at USP.",19.1,22.02,11,{"idx":84,"utterance_id":85,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":86,"start_s":87,"end_s":88,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},2,"64952","She has a bachelor's degree and a master's from the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro and a doctorate from the New School in the United States.",22.6,29.38,19,{"idx":91,"utterance_id":92,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":93,"start_s":94,"end_s":95,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},3,"64953","Additionally, she is a columnist for Folha de São Paulo.",29.9,32.2,{"idx":97,"utterance_id":98,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":99,"start_s":100,"end_s":101,"word_count":97,"indexable":75},4,"64954","Good evening, Laura Carvalho.",32.72,33.8,{"idx":103,"utterance_id":104,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":105,"start_s":106,"end_s":107,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},5,"64955","Good evening.",34.1,34.46,{"idx":109,"utterance_id":110,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":111,"start_s":112,"end_s":113,"word_count":103,"indexable":75},6,"64956","It's a pleasure to be here with you.",34.78,35.78,{"idx":115,"utterance_id":116,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":117,"start_s":118,"end_s":119,"word_count":103,"indexable":75},7,"64957","Thank you for the invitation.",36.28,37.84,{"idx":121,"utterance_id":122,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":123,"start_s":124,"end_s":125,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},8,"64958","Listen, how do you explain a book of economics—which, after all, isn't exactly easy reading, not fiction—having become the success it has, now nearing 30,000 copies, counting the e-book and the print edition?",37.9,57.2,43,{"idx":128,"utterance_id":129,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":130,"start_s":131,"end_s":132,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},9,"64959","How did you react to those numbers, to that success?",57.76,62.6,{"idx":4,"utterance_id":134,"speaker_name":135,"text":136,"start_s":137,"end_s":138,"word_count":139,"indexable":75},"64960","Desconhecido","Well, I think there's an element which is the timing of the book's release.",63.42,68.18,16,{"idx":82,"utterance_id":141,"speaker_name":135,"text":142,"start_s":143,"end_s":144,"word_count":145,"indexable":75},"64961","It came out in May of last year, in 2018, before the election campaign, at a moment when the economic crisis... proved to be much more enduring, permanent and even deeper than had been suggested.",69.3,87.04,37,{"idx":147,"utterance_id":148,"speaker_name":135,"text":149,"start_s":150,"end_s":151,"word_count":27,"indexable":75},12,"64962","So, many people were selling the idea that the impeachment would be enough for the economy to start growing again, and that the approval of the PEC establishing the spending ceiling would restore confidence.",87.1,99.24,{"idx":153,"utterance_id":154,"speaker_name":135,"text":155,"start_s":156,"end_s":157,"word_count":158,"indexable":75},13,"64963","And I think that in 2018 we arrived at an electoral process with a very clear sense that the solutions presented up to then were not... leading us to that greater growth, something which, by the way, proved even more true this year.",99.32,115.22,40,{"idx":160,"utterance_id":161,"speaker_name":135,"text":162,"start_s":163,"end_s":164,"word_count":165,"indexable":75},14,"64964","So the book, I think, fills that gap, so to speak, of looking at the past while trying to identify the factors behind that crisis, both external and internal, while highlighting the correct steps and the mistakes, and everything that could be done in the future so that we would keep only the correct parts and move toward a new model of development.",115.4,145.84,71,{"idx":167,"utterance_id":168,"speaker_name":135,"text":169,"start_s":170,"end_s":171,"word_count":115,"indexable":75},15,"64965","So, I think that was a bit of it.",145.9,147.8,{"idx":139,"utterance_id":173,"speaker_name":135,"text":174,"start_s":175,"end_s":176,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},"64966","Of course, there's the fact that I started writing for newspapers and learned to use a language",147.88,155.52,18,{"idx":179,"utterance_id":180,"speaker_name":135,"text":181,"start_s":182,"end_s":183,"word_count":27,"indexable":75},17,"64967","that strays somewhat from 'economese', or from that tougher econo-jargon that blocks people and that, incidentally, I think serves a role in keeping people away from the economic debate.",156.6,169.12,{"idx":177,"utterance_id":185,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":186,"start_s":187,"end_s":188,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},"64968","Many economists, recently including liberals, have revived the debate from the 1940s and 1950s, recalling the controversy between the so-called liberals and the so-called developmentalists.",169.6,185.06,{"idx":89,"utterance_id":190,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":191,"start_s":192,"end_s":193,"word_count":194,"indexable":75},"64969","This debate, in a way, is being reclaimed in various ways, by both sides, curiously, to defend their points of view, as if to say 'see how I was right?'",185.64,195.86,30,{"idx":196,"utterance_id":197,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":198,"start_s":199,"end_s":200,"word_count":179,"indexable":75},20,"64970","But what would you say about the liberal paradigm and the developmentalist paradigm, at least in that old frame?",196.48,204.2,{"idx":202,"utterance_id":203,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":204,"start_s":205,"end_s":206,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},21,"64971","Where do you position yourself in that debate?",204.82,206.74,{"idx":60,"utterance_id":208,"speaker_name":135,"text":209,"start_s":210,"end_s":211,"word_count":212,"indexable":75},"64972","Look, I actually think that if we consider these paradigms in terms of the role of the State in generating economic growth and well-being for society, which is what really matters, it's evident that I would be much closer to the so-called developmentalists, because I believe the idea of leaving the market alone to allocate all resources for society—that this would be more efficient, more effective, and that people would have greater access to the products, income and services they desire—has proven mistaken, not once, nor twice.",207.44,254.82,100,{"idx":21,"utterance_id":214,"speaker_name":135,"text":215,"start_s":216,"end_s":217,"word_count":139,"indexable":75},"64973","I think the 2008 crisis, in fact, revolutionized economic thought worldwide, not for nothing.",255.08,261.68,{"idx":74,"utterance_id":219,"speaker_name":135,"text":220,"start_s":221,"end_s":222,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},"64974","The deregulation of financial markets, the deregulation of labor markets.",262.38,268.2,{"idx":49,"utterance_id":224,"speaker_name":135,"text":225,"start_s":226,"end_s":227,"word_count":145,"indexable":75},"64975","In those countries, over recent years, strengthened by globalization over the past decades since the 1980s, it seems to me they did not take the world economy to something better; quite the opposite.",268.8,285.34,{"idx":9,"utterance_id":229,"speaker_name":135,"text":230,"start_s":231,"end_s":232,"word_count":196,"indexable":75},"64976","We have seen inequality increase in those countries, and now we are even bearing the consequences of that for democracy.",285.38,291.92,{"idx":234,"utterance_id":235,"speaker_name":135,"text":236,"start_s":237,"end_s":238,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},27,"64977","And this right-wing populist wave has a lot to do with that.",292.16,296.78,{"idx":43,"utterance_id":240,"speaker_name":135,"text":241,"start_s":242,"end_s":243,"word_count":244,"indexable":75},"64978","So my sense is that not even multilateral institutions, the IMF, research bodies, or the economic mainstream today view radical liberalism, let's say, those ultra ideas of having no State, as something respectable.",296.84,316.46,39,{"idx":246,"utterance_id":247,"speaker_name":135,"text":248,"start_s":249,"end_s":250,"word_count":251,"indexable":75},29,"64979","In fact, everyone is concerned with finding mechanisms within the State, in economic policy and income distribution—which can be done through spending, taxation, and the necessary and best possible regulatory mechanisms—so that the private sector, too, can prosper in a way that benefits society as a whole.",316.58,341.94,53,{"idx":194,"utterance_id":253,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":254,"start_s":255,"end_s":256,"word_count":234,"indexable":75},"64980","One curious thing that happened in Brazil is that there was a common development in terms of—I wouldn't call them social classes exactly, but social strata, social segments.",342.32,353.16,{"idx":258,"utterance_id":259,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":260,"start_s":261,"end_s":262,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},31,"64981","And you pointed out in some of your articles that this squeeze of the middle class, the so-called 40% in the middle.",353.66,361.48,{"idx":15,"utterance_id":264,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":265,"start_s":266,"end_s":267,"word_count":139,"indexable":75},"64982","This is in the international literature; there are already studies showing that this is a generalized phenomenon post-globalization.",363.16,371.58,{"idx":27,"utterance_id":269,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":270,"start_s":271,"end_s":272,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},"64983","Indeed, you have the middle 40% that have been squeezed everywhere.",372.44,377.94,{"idx":274,"utterance_id":275,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":276,"start_s":277,"end_s":278,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},34,"64984","This is no different in Brazil.",379.34,380.92,{"idx":280,"utterance_id":281,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":282,"start_s":283,"end_s":284,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},35,"64985","In Brazil, I wouldn't say that this middle class became poorer during the Lula years, but it did, from a relative point of view...",380.98,390.12,{"idx":286,"utterance_id":287,"speaker_name":135,"text":288,"start_s":289,"end_s":290,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},36,"64986","It earned less.",390.28,390.94,{"idx":145,"utterance_id":292,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":288,"start_s":293,"end_s":294,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},"64987",391.16,391.98,{"idx":296,"utterance_id":297,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":298,"start_s":299,"end_s":300,"word_count":97,"indexable":75},38,"64988","Or earned much less.",392.88,393.92,{"idx":244,"utterance_id":302,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":303,"start_s":304,"end_s":305,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},"64989","But, in a developed world, you did not have the phenomenon of the poor becoming less poor.",394.54,400.54,{"idx":158,"utterance_id":307,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":308,"start_s":309,"end_s":310,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},"64990","Doesn't that distinguish the populism here from the populism there?",402.88,405.96,{"idx":312,"utterance_id":313,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":314,"start_s":315,"end_s":316,"word_count":115,"indexable":75},41,"64991","How do you... Analyze this issue.",406.44,408.86,{"idx":318,"utterance_id":319,"speaker_name":135,"text":320,"start_s":321,"end_s":322,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},42,"64992","Without a doubt.",409,409.52,{"idx":126,"utterance_id":324,"speaker_name":135,"text":325,"start_s":326,"end_s":327,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},"64993","I think",409.56,409.64,{"idx":329,"utterance_id":330,"speaker_name":135,"text":331,"start_s":332,"end_s":333,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},44,"64994","that while",409.68,410.2,{"idx":335,"utterance_id":336,"speaker_name":135,"text":337,"start_s":338,"end_s":339,"word_count":340,"indexable":75},45,"64995","that very fast Chinese growth prevailed, which ended up benefiting Brazil with oil prices rising rapidly, iron ore prices rising rapidly, soy, in short, the products we export most, we moved together with several other countries against the trend in the world, thanks also to policies that were implemented.",410.28,432.84,52,{"idx":342,"utterance_id":343,"speaker_name":135,"text":344,"start_s":345,"end_s":346,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},46,"64996","Of course they knew how to take advantage of that favorable external moment to... a policy of valuing the minimum wage, income transfers that were universalized, etc.",432.98,441.48,{"idx":348,"utterance_id":349,"speaker_name":135,"text":350,"start_s":351,"end_s":352,"word_count":179,"indexable":75},47,"64997","All those things had a very unique effect compared to rich countries at the bottom of the pyramid.",441.78,449.18,{"idx":354,"utterance_id":355,"speaker_name":135,"text":356,"start_s":357,"end_s":358,"word_count":128,"indexable":75},48,"64998","Other Latin American countries also had that experience.",449.3,452.38,{"idx":360,"utterance_id":361,"speaker_name":135,"text":362,"start_s":363,"end_s":364,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},49,"64999","However, what do I think is similar?",454.04,457.38,{"idx":366,"utterance_id":367,"speaker_name":135,"text":368,"start_s":369,"end_s":370,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},50,"65000","This middle... that we are calling the middle class is not exactly the middle class in the cultural or social European sense of middle class.",458.74,470.3,{"idx":372,"utterance_id":373,"speaker_name":135,"text":374,"start_s":375,"end_s":376,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},51,"65001","And what do I mean by that?",470.92,472.26,{"idx":340,"utterance_id":378,"speaker_name":135,"text":379,"start_s":380,"end_s":381,"word_count":335,"indexable":75},"65002","Sure, it is in the middle of the income distribution, but these families that did not gain that much and that, in fact, lost relatively, and from 2011, when the economy began to decelerate and they also began to lose in absolute terms, often they earn",472.54,488.48,{"idx":251,"utterance_id":383,"speaker_name":135,"text":384,"start_s":385,"end_s":386,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},"65003","between two and five minimum wages per household.",489.9,493.88,{"idx":388,"utterance_id":389,"speaker_name":135,"text":390,"start_s":391,"end_s":392,"word_count":158,"indexable":75},54,"65004","So we are not talking about that middle class, which is actually the elite, because in the Brazilian case it's like that: if you earn five thousand reais a month, you, as an individual, are already in the top 10%.",494.26,505.74,{"idx":394,"utterance_id":395,"speaker_name":135,"text":396,"start_s":397,"end_s":398,"word_count":342,"indexable":75},55,"65005","The extent of inequality is so brutal that what we call the squeezed middle class is actually very similar in income level to that lower class in the income distribution that was also squeezed in rich countries.",506.22,522.38,{"idx":400,"utterance_id":401,"speaker_name":135,"text":402,"start_s":403,"end_s":404,"word_count":139,"indexable":75},56,"65006","And, in that sense, economic insecurity weighs in both cases, even though, of course, in different ways.",523.1,530.44,{"idx":406,"utterance_id":407,"speaker_name":135,"text":408,"start_s":409,"end_s":410,"word_count":411,"indexable":75},57,"65007","I think the reality of that population is very different from the European middle class, but it seems to me that... the weight of the economy, of the economic crisis, of economic insecurity, when you build a right-wing populist discourse that tries to blame, to find a group that is guilty, whether minorities, immigrants, or what was done here, that has an appeal.",530.56,558.16,62,{"idx":413,"utterance_id":414,"speaker_name":135,"text":415,"start_s":416,"end_s":417,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},58,"65008","When you are in a crisis, that has an appeal.",558.22,560.72,{"idx":419,"utterance_id":420,"speaker_name":135,"text":421,"start_s":422,"end_s":423,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},59,"65009","And I think in that sense there is a similarity, albeit with many differences.",560.76,565.46,{"idx":425,"utterance_id":426,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":427,"start_s":428,"end_s":429,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},60,"65010","Well, the response that the Brazilian government, after the impeachment, has given to the crisis is still Temer's 'bridge to the future.'",566.02,575.2,{"idx":431,"utterance_id":432,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":433,"start_s":434,"end_s":435,"word_count":43,"indexable":75},61,"65011","We are still on the tune of the bridge to the future, which some called a makeshift footbridge to the future, and which basically consisted of three very drastic measures.",575.78,589.12,{"idx":411,"utterance_id":437,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":438,"start_s":439,"end_s":440,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},"65012","The deregulation of the labor market with the labor reform.",589.8,592.78,{"idx":442,"utterance_id":443,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":444,"start_s":445,"end_s":446,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},63,"65013","which is now in a second edition.",593.68,595.26,{"idx":448,"utterance_id":449,"speaker_name":135,"text":450,"start_s":451,"end_s":452,"word_count":103,"indexable":75},64,"65014","With the MP of Freedom.",595.44,596.88,{"idx":454,"utterance_id":455,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":456,"start_s":457,"end_s":458,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},65,"65015","Exactly, the Provisional Measure on Economic Freedom and such.",596.98,598.92,{"idx":460,"utterance_id":461,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":462,"start_s":463,"end_s":464,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},66,"65016","So, an intensification of this process of deregulating the labor market.",599.52,605.46,{"idx":466,"utterance_id":467,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":468,"start_s":469,"end_s":470,"word_count":296,"indexable":75},67,"65017","The spending PEC you mentioned, which is the fixation in real terms, the freeze in real terms, for 20 years, of public spending and investment combined, because it does not distinguish one from the other.",607.14,620.78,{"idx":472,"utterance_id":473,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":474,"start_s":475,"end_s":476,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},68,"65018","And now the issue of the pension reform that did not spare the poorest.",621.64,625.84,{"idx":478,"utterance_id":479,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":480,"start_s":481,"end_s":482,"word_count":335,"indexable":75},69,"65019","In fact, I think that the opposition in a certain center there managed to mitigate the very perverse effects of Guedes' reform, by avoiding capitalization, excluding the BPC, rural pensions, and even reducing the required contribution period, the minimum contribution time for retirement.",626.42,649.74,{"idx":484,"utterance_id":485,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":486,"start_s":487,"end_s":488,"word_count":318,"indexable":75},70,"65020","Partial, because for full benefits the same contribution period was kept, and we know that 40 years of contributions in Brazil, 40 years of formal employment, is almost a logical impossibility given the structural issues of our economy.",650.1,668.74,{"idx":165,"utterance_id":490,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":491,"start_s":492,"end_s":493,"word_count":128,"indexable":75},"65021","What do you expect from the conclusion of Temer's agenda?",669.64,672.46,{"idx":495,"utterance_id":496,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":497,"start_s":498,"end_s":499,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},72,"65022","And do you see on the horizon, in the Bolsonaro-Guedes administration, any measure",673.52,678.58,{"idx":501,"utterance_id":502,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":503,"start_s":504,"end_s":505,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},73,"65023","that could be considered encouraging for the economy?",679.24,682.56,{"idx":507,"utterance_id":508,"speaker_name":135,"text":509,"start_s":510,"end_s":511,"word_count":512,"indexable":75},74,"65024","No, it's curious that both Temer and Guedes, after being confronted with reality — and reality has frustrated growth expectations successive times since we began to implement the fiscal adjustment strategy in 2015, which has been disproportionately carried out on the spending side, that is, there was no attempt to balance it by slightly increasing taxes on the richer and reducing expenditures that do not have such a large multiplier —",683.02,717.14,77,{"idx":514,"utterance_id":515,"speaker_name":135,"text":516,"start_s":517,"end_s":518,"word_count":312,"indexable":75},75,"65025","in the sense that they affect income, employment, inequality so strongly, we have seen the frustration of that agenda from the point of view of both generating economic growth... and even solving the public accounts problem.",717.26,734.86,{"idx":520,"utterance_id":521,"speaker_name":135,"text":522,"start_s":523,"end_s":524,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},76,"65026","This, of course, was aggravated under the Temer government and now the Bolsonaro government also faces 20 successive downward revisions of growth projections for the year.",735.52,749.02,{"idx":512,"utterance_id":526,"speaker_name":135,"text":527,"start_s":528,"end_s":529,"word_count":442,"indexable":75},"65027","With that, a slowdown in revenue collection, which came in much lower than expected, and then you have to keep doing these spending freezes all the time, cutting resources here and there, which has the effect of worsening the crisis even more, putting yet another obstacle, a new impediment, to the recovery that has been the slowest in the history of Brazilian crises.",749.46,772.58,{"idx":531,"utterance_id":532,"speaker_name":135,"text":533,"start_s":534,"end_s":535,"word_count":165,"indexable":75},78,"65028","And then, when faced with this, the official discourse of course continues to be that, well, they will approve the reforms and that will be sufficient to restore confidence and investors, overnight, will decide it's worth investing here, despite the idle capacity they still have, despite sales that are not growing — something that doesn't make much sense.",773.22,796.26,{"idx":537,"utterance_id":538,"speaker_name":135,"text":539,"start_s":540,"end_s":541,"word_count":194,"indexable":75},79,"65029","But then they also take stimulus measures, so Temer and Guedes have now released... this authorization for FGTS withdrawals, a little to give some injection of cheer.",796.72,809.66,{"idx":543,"utterance_id":544,"speaker_name":135,"text":545,"start_s":546,"end_s":547,"word_count":179,"indexable":75},80,"65030","Now, of course, this has other negative consequences, besides not being a long-term stimulus.",809.74,816.66,{"idx":549,"utterance_id":550,"speaker_name":135,"text":551,"start_s":552,"end_s":553,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},81,"65031","It's something that you are basically canceling out.",816.82,818.88,{"idx":555,"utterance_id":556,"speaker_name":135,"text":557,"start_s":558,"end_s":559,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},82,"65032","The negative effect, the contingency this year of resources, that block of funds at the point of disbursement, is already 32 billion.",818.94,826.94,{"idx":561,"utterance_id":562,"speaker_name":135,"text":563,"start_s":564,"end_s":565,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},83,"65033","What they say the FGTS account withdrawals will inject into the economy is 30 billion.",827.36,832.68,{"idx":567,"utterance_id":568,"speaker_name":135,"text":569,"start_s":570,"end_s":571,"word_count":360,"indexable":75},84,"65034","Deep down, what you are doing is complete irrationality in economic policy, which has become schizophrenic, in which these fiscal rules require ever larger cuts in investments and expenditures, and at the same time you keep doing these measures that we call parafiscal,",834,852.28,{"idx":573,"utterance_id":574,"speaker_name":135,"text":575,"start_s":576,"end_s":577,"word_count":202,"indexable":75},85,"65035","which do not affect the public budget, like this FGTS withdrawal or other credit stimulus measures, to try to compensate.",853.04,860.54,{"idx":579,"utterance_id":580,"speaker_name":135,"text":581,"start_s":582,"end_s":583,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},86,"65036","None of this constitutes an actual agenda for growth, job creation and much less development.",862.28,869.12,{"idx":585,"utterance_id":586,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":587,"start_s":588,"end_s":589,"word_count":153,"indexable":75},87,"65037","And Laura, today there is a controversy around the issue of tax reform.",869.52,875.7,{"idx":591,"utterance_id":592,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":593,"start_s":594,"end_s":595,"word_count":244,"indexable":75},88,"65038","There is the reform proposed by some economists who even took part in PT governments, very associated with the name Bernardo Api, which basically has VAT as its foundation — it is a value-added tax that simplifies and such.",878.02,892.5,{"idx":597,"utterance_id":598,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":599,"start_s":600,"end_s":601,"word_count":202,"indexable":75},89,"65039","And Guedes' proposal, probably inspired by Marco Sintra, who has talked about this for decades, which is a super-CPMF, a CPMFI.",893.08,903.78,{"idx":603,"utterance_id":604,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":605,"start_s":606,"end_s":607,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},90,"65040","To really be meaningful, which is almost ten times larger than the rate proposed in the Fernando Henrique government and maintained until the middle of the Lula government.",904.48,914.44,{"idx":609,"utterance_id":610,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":611,"start_s":612,"end_s":613,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},91,"65041","Neither of the two touch on the issue of regressivity.",916,919.56,{"idx":615,"utterance_id":616,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":617,"start_s":618,"end_s":619,"word_count":103,"indexable":75},92,"65042","That's right. Neither of the two.",920.32,921.32,{"idx":621,"utterance_id":622,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":623,"start_s":624,"end_s":625,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},93,"65043","That is, everyone knows that the Brazilian tax system, for those listening to understand, when we say the system is regressive... it's that it charges proportionally more from those who earn less and proportionally less from those who earn more.",922.08,937.46,{"idx":627,"utterance_id":628,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":629,"start_s":630,"end_s":631,"word_count":115,"indexable":75},94,"65044","That is what a regressive tax system is.",938.02,940.22,{"idx":633,"utterance_id":634,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":635,"start_s":636,"end_s":637,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},95,"65045","And our system is one of the most regressive in the world.",940.7,943.3,{"idx":639,"utterance_id":640,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":641,"start_s":642,"end_s":643,"word_count":202,"indexable":75},96,"65046","That is, public budgeting, from the revenue side, worsens income distribution, which is insane.",943.96,950.66,{"idx":645,"utterance_id":646,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":647,"start_s":648,"end_s":649,"word_count":153,"indexable":75},97,"65047","A country that already has one of the worst income distributions in the world.",951.24,954.76,{"idx":651,"utterance_id":652,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":653,"start_s":654,"end_s":655,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},98,"65048","The Lula government, in a way, corrected this on the expenditure side.",956.22,959.04,{"idx":657,"utterance_id":658,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":659,"start_s":660,"end_s":661,"word_count":234,"indexable":75},99,"65049","That is, it put the poor inside the budget and they managed to see something there: Minha Casa Minha Vida, Luz para Todos, ProUni.",959.68,966.58,{"idx":212,"utterance_id":663,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":664,"start_s":665,"end_s":666,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},"65050","You made a small fix to that huge distortion.",966.62,970.84,{"idx":668,"utterance_id":669,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":670,"start_s":671,"end_s":672,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},101,"65051","What was imagined was that one could do a tax reform that corrected the regressivity of the system and neither proposal does that.",971.46,980.58,{"idx":674,"utterance_id":675,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":676,"start_s":677,"end_s":678,"word_count":179,"indexable":75},102,"65052","But it seems to me that Guedes' is even worse, because besides not correcting it, it can aggravate it,",980.92,986.78,{"idx":680,"utterance_id":681,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":682,"start_s":683,"end_s":684,"word_count":194,"indexable":75},103,"65053","and it can bring some dysfunctions to the system, including debanking and financial disintermediation, due to the size of the rate, even if he compensates that with the reduction of other taxes.",987.52,1000.42,{"idx":686,"utterance_id":687,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":688,"start_s":689,"end_s":690,"word_count":103,"indexable":75},104,"65054","How do you see it?",1000.86,1001.84,{"idx":692,"utterance_id":693,"speaker_name":135,"text":694,"start_s":695,"end_s":696,"word_count":335,"indexable":75},105,"65055","It's a bit sad that this is the tax reform debate we are having in Brazil at the moment, considering our fiscal problems and how the public budget and the rebalancing of the public budget have disproportionately penalized the poorest.",1003.38,1024.64,{"idx":698,"utterance_id":699,"speaker_name":135,"text":700,"start_s":701,"end_s":702,"word_count":411,"indexable":75},106,"65056","And considering what you said, that is, this structurally regressive character of our tax system, which kicks off the work by concentrating income, making the task of redistributing via spending almost farcical — something where you have to expand spending a lot just to compensate for how much you are concentrating income when you collect taxes in Brazil.",1024.98,1050.34,{"idx":704,"utterance_id":705,"speaker_name":135,"text":706,"start_s":707,"end_s":708,"word_count":43,"indexable":75},107,"65057","It's sad that the discussion... isn't even dealing with income taxation, wealth taxation, which are the things we know improve this progressivity.",1052.44,1063.98,{"idx":710,"utterance_id":711,"speaker_name":135,"text":712,"start_s":713,"end_s":714,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},108,"65058","So, in Brazil, the top personal income tax rate is much lower than the top American rate.",1064.42,1072.56,{"idx":716,"utterance_id":717,"speaker_name":135,"text":718,"start_s":719,"end_s":720,"word_count":177,"indexable":75},109,"65059","I mean, we're not even talking about Sweden, Denmark, countries with a known redistributive state character.",1072.64,1081.78,{"idx":722,"utterance_id":723,"speaker_name":135,"text":724,"start_s":725,"end_s":726,"word_count":153,"indexable":75},110,"65060","And that's not even on the agenda, it's not even in debate.",1082.24,1086.56,{"idx":728,"utterance_id":729,"speaker_name":135,"text":730,"start_s":731,"end_s":732,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},111,"65061","I don't even think Bernardo Rapi, for example, would be in favor of something like that.",1086.78,1092.62,{"idx":734,"utterance_id":735,"speaker_name":135,"text":736,"start_s":737,"end_s":738,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},112,"65062","He has said so.",1092.66,1093.46,{"idx":740,"utterance_id":741,"speaker_name":135,"text":742,"start_s":743,"end_s":744,"word_count":43,"indexable":75},113,"65063","in favor of that many times, but I think the shift to the right of the government and Congress is blocking and preventing any kind of debate in that direction.",1093.54,1109.04,{"idx":746,"utterance_id":747,"speaker_name":135,"text":748,"start_s":749,"end_s":750,"word_count":372,"indexable":75},114,"65064","I think the view — at least what I see — is that it's not even worth trying to put something like that forward, whether inheritance taxation, income taxation, ending dividend exemptions, for example, which is something almost consensual among economists from all sides.",1109.1,1127,{"idx":752,"utterance_id":753,"speaker_name":135,"text":754,"start_s":755,"end_s":756,"word_count":234,"indexable":75},115,"65065","That is not even on the agenda because, well, Congress, it seems, is not very interested in taking measures that harm that top 1%.",1127.26,1139.06,{"idx":758,"utterance_id":759,"speaker_name":135,"text":760,"start_s":761,"end_s":762,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},116,"65066","in the country.",1139.86,1140.44,{"idx":764,"utterance_id":765,"speaker_name":135,"text":766,"start_s":767,"end_s":768,"word_count":194,"indexable":75},117,"65067","The proposal that Congress wants to carry forward is certainly much better than the proposal the government wants to carry forward, thinking of Congress, Rodrigo Maia and...",1141.82,1152.9,{"idx":770,"utterance_id":771,"speaker_name":135,"text":772,"start_s":773,"end_s":774,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},118,"65068","Limited Company.",1153.22,1153.94,{"idx":776,"utterance_id":777,"speaker_name":135,"text":778,"start_s":779,"end_s":780,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},119,"65069","Exactly.",1154.02,1154.54,{"idx":782,"utterance_id":783,"speaker_name":135,"text":784,"start_s":785,"end_s":786,"word_count":244,"indexable":75},120,"65070","I think there is no doubt that the VAT, the simplification that it brings and other elements that can be corrected by that reform, the under-taxation of services in the Simples, in short, things that also harm income distribution,",1154.82,1169.56,{"idx":788,"utterance_id":789,"speaker_name":135,"text":790,"start_s":791,"end_s":792,"word_count":153,"indexable":75},121,"65071","is already something, but it really does not attack the heart of the problem.",1170.66,1175.88,{"idx":794,"utterance_id":795,"speaker_name":135,"text":796,"start_s":797,"end_s":798,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},122,"65072","The proposal to do it via taxation of financial transactions, really, besides not... improving distribution of income in the country in any way,",1176.34,1188.72,{"idx":800,"utterance_id":801,"speaker_name":135,"text":802,"start_s":803,"end_s":804,"word_count":179,"indexable":75},123,"65073","indeed, as you said, creates even worse problems, it can even encourage tax evasion, actually.",1188.78,1195.4,{"idx":806,"utterance_id":807,"speaker_name":135,"text":808,"start_s":809,"end_s":810,"word_count":234,"indexable":75},124,"65074","Because when you cause financial disintermediation, in the end you also lose control over what people are paying and receiving.",1195.78,1203.68,{"idx":812,"utterance_id":813,"speaker_name":135,"text":814,"start_s":815,"end_s":816,"word_count":139,"indexable":75},125,"65075","It is so dramatic that it can even have the opposite effect of the CPMF,",1204.02,1209.28,{"idx":818,"utterance_id":819,"speaker_name":135,"text":820,"start_s":821,"end_s":822,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},126,"65076","which had an advantage, which was that you could identify the transactions that were being made well; they say that this reduced tax evasion.",1209.96,1218.94,{"idx":824,"utterance_id":825,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":826,"start_s":827,"end_s":828,"word_count":60,"indexable":75},127,"65077","And this thesis is also expressed by the new president of BNDES, that BNDES has to become a boutique on Faria Lima.",1219.02,1227.26,{"idx":830,"utterance_id":831,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":832,"start_s":833,"end_s":834,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},128,"65078","How do you read that?",1229.82,1231.48,{"idx":836,"utterance_id":837,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":838,"start_s":839,"end_s":840,"word_count":103,"indexable":75},129,"65079","What is your opinion?",1231.54,1232.48,{"idx":842,"utterance_id":843,"speaker_name":135,"text":844,"start_s":845,"end_s":846,"word_count":139,"indexable":75},130,"65080","Ok, what seems to me to be a problem is that we do not have a strategic design of a productive structure that we want to have in the 21st century.",1232.72,1238.36,{"idx":848,"utterance_id":849,"speaker_name":135,"text":850,"start_s":851,"end_s":852,"word_count":153,"indexable":75},131,"65081","So, a development bank is even more fundamental when we have this model.",1238.78,1243.94,{"idx":854,"utterance_id":855,"speaker_name":135,"text":856,"start_s":857,"end_s":858,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},132,"65082","What model would that be?",1244.02,1248.4,{"idx":860,"utterance_id":861,"speaker_name":135,"text":862,"start_s":863,"end_s":864,"word_count":97,"indexable":75},133,"65083","So, for example, now in the United States they are discussing this Green New Deal, which is this large investment plan to reduce carbon emissions, to stop this catastrophic climate change process that is already underway,",1249.82,1251.06,{"idx":62,"utterance_id":866,"speaker_name":135,"text":867,"start_s":868,"end_s":869,"word_count":296,"indexable":75},"65084","that brings us closer to collapse, more quickly and aggressively, with a lot of state investment.",1251.12,1267.62,{"idx":871,"utterance_id":872,"speaker_name":135,"text":873,"start_s":874,"end_s":875,"word_count":153,"indexable":75},135,"65085","It brings us closer to collapse, more quickly, aggressively, with a lot of state investment.",1268.04,1273.96,{"idx":877,"utterance_id":878,"speaker_name":135,"text":879,"start_s":880,"end_s":881,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},136,"65086","BNDES made a lot of investments, for example, in wind energy; there are several very positive things that happened that would not exist without BNDES.",1275.44,1284.02,{"idx":883,"utterance_id":884,"speaker_name":135,"text":885,"start_s":886,"end_s":887,"word_count":202,"indexable":75},137,"65087","Now, it seems to me that what we lack is to have this kind of plan, which is not necessarily only environmental.",1284.62,1289.54,{"idx":889,"utterance_id":890,"speaker_name":135,"text":891,"start_s":892,"end_s":893,"word_count":202,"indexable":75},138,"65088","In our case, it can be environmental and it can revolve around social missions, so we want to have.",1289.62,1294.98,{"idx":51,"utterance_id":895,"speaker_name":135,"text":896,"start_s":897,"end_s":898,"word_count":258,"indexable":75},"65089","Technologies being developed at the same time that we address historical gaps and deficiencies in basic sanitation, urban transport, interstate infrastructure, public health, and public education.",1296.5,1313.74,{"idx":900,"utterance_id":901,"speaker_name":135,"text":902,"start_s":903,"end_s":904,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},140,"65090","All these gaps that society knows we have, which are historical and marked by atrocious inequality, can be a path forward.",1313.86,1325.72,{"idx":906,"utterance_id":907,"speaker_name":135,"text":908,"start_s":909,"end_s":910,"word_count":97,"indexable":75},141,"65091","the overcoming of these gaps.",1326.06,1327.72,{"idx":912,"utterance_id":913,"speaker_name":135,"text":914,"start_s":915,"end_s":916,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},142,"65092","They can also be a way for the financing of new technologies and local producers who can develop things, as well as the SUS, to accompany those investments.",1327.82,1339.1,{"idx":918,"utterance_id":919,"speaker_name":135,"text":920,"start_s":921,"end_s":922,"word_count":286,"indexable":75},143,"65093","It is a vector for public procurement of nationally produced goods in the health sector that can have an enormous effect in terms of developing more technological medical-hospital equipment, together with financing from BNDES.",1339.74,1355.44,{"idx":924,"utterance_id":925,"speaker_name":135,"text":926,"start_s":927,"end_s":928,"word_count":128,"indexable":75},144,"65094","So, I think we need to have a plan.",1355.54,1357.98,{"idx":930,"utterance_id":931,"speaker_name":135,"text":932,"start_s":933,"end_s":934,"word_count":258,"indexable":75},145,"65095","Which, of course, it is important that we have sectors of higher technological complexity, to export these goods, to maintain our balance relative to the rest of the world, and to enable greater growth.",1358.76,1369.4,{"idx":936,"utterance_id":937,"speaker_name":135,"text":938,"start_s":939,"end_s":940,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},146,"65096","Now, what things?",1369.8,1371.46,{"idx":942,"utterance_id":943,"speaker_name":135,"text":944,"start_s":945,"end_s":946,"word_count":43,"indexable":75},147,"65097","I think we're missing the outline of a sound industrial policy that does, indeed, have BNDES as one of its main actors.",1372.02,1381.16,{"idx":948,"utterance_id":949,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":950,"start_s":951,"end_s":952,"word_count":153,"indexable":75},148,"65098","Now, Laura, when you talk about a plan, I start thinking about a structural issue.",1381.38,1386.28,{"idx":39,"utterance_id":954,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":955,"start_s":956,"end_s":957,"word_count":128,"indexable":75},"65099","which is the issue of the vulnerability of the Brazilian State.",1387.38,1390.36,{"idx":959,"utterance_id":960,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":961,"start_s":962,"end_s":963,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},150,"65100","Because we have the habit of thinking that the Brazilian State is strong.",1390.68,1393.32,{"idx":965,"utterance_id":966,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":967,"start_s":968,"end_s":969,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},151,"65101","And in fact it may even be large, collecting 35% of GDP, but it is not strong. In the political sense, it is very vulnerable.",1394,1402.58,{"idx":971,"utterance_id":972,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":973,"start_s":974,"end_s":975,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},152,"65102","You, in one of your articles, talked about Fiesp's agenda.",1403.32,1405.82,{"idx":977,"utterance_id":978,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":979,"start_s":980,"end_s":981,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},153,"65103","How Fiesp was one of the protagonists of the economic crisis by presenting Dilma with an agenda that didn't hold up.",1406.36,1413.38,{"idx":983,"utterance_id":984,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":985,"start_s":986,"end_s":987,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},154,"65104","Absurd tax breaks.",1414.6,1416.28,{"idx":989,"utterance_id":990,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":991,"start_s":992,"end_s":993,"word_count":153,"indexable":75},155,"65105","the issue of electric power, to cite two examples that became well known.",1416.76,1422.2,{"idx":995,"utterance_id":996,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":997,"start_s":998,"end_s":999,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},156,"65106","But, anyway, it was an agenda that couldn't work, in my opinion.",1422.26,1427.54,{"idx":1001,"utterance_id":1002,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1003,"start_s":1004,"end_s":1005,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},157,"65107","And it didn't.",1427.94,1428.28,{"idx":1007,"utterance_id":1008,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1009,"start_s":1010,"end_s":1011,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},158,"65108","How to solve this problem of the State's vulnerability?",1429.98,1432.86,{"idx":1013,"utterance_id":1014,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1015,"start_s":1016,"end_s":1017,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},159,"65109","In other words, how do we relate to the national bourgeoisie?",1433.7,1437.2,{"idx":1019,"utterance_id":1020,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1021,"start_s":1022,"end_s":1023,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},160,"65110","Does the national bourgeoisie have a project for the nation in mind?",1437.3,1440.36,{"idx":1025,"utterance_id":1026,"speaker_name":135,"text":1027,"start_s":1028,"end_s":1029,"word_count":97,"indexable":75},161,"65111","No, I don't think so.",1441.42,1442.36,{"idx":1031,"utterance_id":1032,"speaker_name":135,"text":1033,"start_s":1034,"end_s":1035,"word_count":549,"indexable":75},162,"65112","And I think one of the main ways for us to shield ourselves, as a State, from pressures or from that broader idea of corruption — which is not the corruption of a private agent or a public agent, but that corruption of interests by corporations and by private interests in the public budget, and of economic policy in general, which ends up following and being oriented by the interests of some corporations and some actors, instead of the collective interest of society.",1442.58,1479.32,{"idx":1037,"utterance_id":1038,"speaker_name":135,"text":1039,"start_s":1040,"end_s":1041,"word_count":651,"indexable":75},163,"65113","One of those ways is to have a plan, precisely, to have the outline of a strategy, because the moment you have the strategy and it is very clear what the objectives are, what the instruments to be used for those longer-term objectives will be, that kind of pressure in, let's say, crisis situations — which ended up arising around 2011, 2012 — because, in the end, you first had an agenda, a policy change that former President Dilma adopted, which was demanded by employer associations, of which Fiesp is one, but not the only one.",1480.06,1520.16,{"idx":1043,"utterance_id":1044,"speaker_name":135,"text":1045,"start_s":1046,"end_s":1047,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},164,"65114","who had the idea of, well, we need competitiveness, we need to reduce costs in order to be able to export.",1521.86,1528.02,{"idx":1049,"utterance_id":1050,"speaker_name":135,"text":1051,"start_s":1052,"end_s":1053,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},165,"65115","So there one succeeded in convincing that it was a greater objective of growth, which would generate benefits for society.",1528.12,1535.62,{"idx":1055,"utterance_id":1056,"speaker_name":135,"text":1057,"start_s":1058,"end_s":1059,"word_count":286,"indexable":75},166,"65116","It is evident that at the moment you establish incentives, those that initially were for some sectors, which in fact had some compressed margin, end up being extended by Congress to almost all sectors.",1537.34,1552.02,{"idx":1061,"utterance_id":1062,"speaker_name":135,"text":1063,"start_s":1064,"end_s":1065,"word_count":372,"indexable":75},167,"65117","So the National Congress is also a forum where this corruption occurs: who finances the campaign, who has more influence, who, ultimately, manages to have provisional measures or bills and other things benefit, extending the benefits to sectors that have nothing to do with that original design.",1552.58,1575.24,{"idx":1067,"utterance_id":1068,"speaker_name":135,"text":1069,"start_s":1070,"end_s":1071,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},168,"65118","So, I think to avoid this you first need to have a very clear design.",1576.06,1580.4,{"idx":1073,"utterance_id":1074,"speaker_name":135,"text":1075,"start_s":1076,"end_s":1077,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},169,"65119","very transparent, upfront, about what the policy is and who benefits from it.",1581.4,1589.68,{"idx":1079,"utterance_id":1080,"speaker_name":135,"text":1081,"start_s":1082,"end_s":1083,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},170,"65120","And then, the beneficiaries are not a particular sector or another.",1589.74,1592.72,{"idx":1085,"utterance_id":1086,"speaker_name":135,"text":1087,"start_s":1088,"end_s":1089,"word_count":103,"indexable":75},171,"65121","Look, what is the policy?",1593.62,1594.66,{"idx":1091,"utterance_id":1092,"speaker_name":135,"text":1093,"start_s":1094,"end_s":1095,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},172,"65122","The policy is: we have to overcome these deficiencies, we have to overcome these inequalities, we need to create new technologies throughout this process.",1594.74,1604.56,{"idx":1097,"utterance_id":1098,"speaker_name":135,"text":1099,"start_s":1100,"end_s":1101,"word_count":179,"indexable":75},173,"65123","This already rules out that kind of economic policy that says, 'ah, let's protect the automobile industry now.'",1604.96,1612.24,{"idx":1103,"utterance_id":1104,"speaker_name":135,"text":1105,"start_s":1106,"end_s":1107,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},174,"65124","Oh, now let's protect the durables industry, the household appliances industry.",1612.72,1618.08,{"idx":1109,"utterance_id":1110,"speaker_name":135,"text":1111,"start_s":1112,"end_s":1113,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},175,"65125","That's what I think won't work.",1618.52,1619.72,{"idx":1115,"utterance_id":1116,"speaker_name":135,"text":1117,"start_s":1118,"end_s":1119,"word_count":234,"indexable":75},176,"65126","because then it ends up depending on whoever has more access to the ruler, whoever gets more access to Congress to secure that privileged spot.",1620.12,1633.46,{"idx":1121,"utterance_id":1122,"speaker_name":135,"text":1123,"start_s":1124,"end_s":1125,"word_count":153,"indexable":75},177,"65127","So, we don't need to do this together with the current national bourgeoisie.",1633.52,1638.22,{"idx":45,"utterance_id":1127,"speaker_name":135,"text":1128,"start_s":1129,"end_s":1130,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},"65128","I think it's better to do this thinking that we will create a 21st-century national bourgeoisie that is mobilized by results.",1638.28,1648.92,{"idx":1132,"utterance_id":1133,"speaker_name":135,"text":1134,"start_s":1135,"end_s":1136,"word_count":202,"indexable":75},179,"65129","At the moment the economy also grows, inequality falls, more people access the consumer market, you legitimize the process.",1649.46,1658.3,{"idx":1138,"utterance_id":1139,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1140,"start_s":1141,"end_s":1142,"word_count":202,"indexable":75},180,"65130","Speaking still about development, but from another angle, Brazilian economists, I would say, almost all failed regarding education.",1659.56,1670.34,{"idx":1144,"utterance_id":1145,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1146,"start_s":1147,"end_s":1148,"word_count":179,"indexable":75},181,"65131","In the 20th century it was the century of education in the developed world; everyone became literate, everyone was taught.",1671.24,1679.56,{"idx":1150,"utterance_id":1151,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1152,"start_s":1153,"end_s":1154,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},182,"65132","In short, it produced science.",1680.32,1681.72,{"idx":1156,"utterance_id":1157,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1158,"start_s":1159,"end_s":1160,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},183,"65133","By the way, in science Brazil even has a network of universities respected in the world.",1681.8,1686.24,{"idx":1162,"utterance_id":1163,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1164,"start_s":1165,"end_s":1166,"word_count":160,"indexable":75},184,"65134","But the fact is that we spent the entire 20th century underfunding education.",1686.66,1692.22,{"idx":1168,"utterance_id":1169,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1170,"start_s":1171,"end_s":1172,"word_count":153,"indexable":75},185,"65135","And now a government that seems to want to cut more than to help.",1693.06,1695.98,{"idx":1174,"utterance_id":1175,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1176,"start_s":1177,"end_s":1178,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},186,"65136","What is the role of education in your view of economic development?",1697.56,1702.7,{"idx":1180,"utterance_id":1181,"speaker_name":135,"text":1182,"start_s":1183,"end_s":1184,"word_count":335,"indexable":75},187,"65137","Education is fundamental even so that we are not eternally that large pool of less-educated labor, so that we become a country that wants to develop and sophisticate its productive structure to serve and employ a workforce",1703.24,1723.94,{"idx":1186,"utterance_id":1187,"speaker_name":135,"text":1188,"start_s":1189,"end_s":1190,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},188,"65138","qualified, with higher wages, including allowing us to overcome that degree of wage inequality that we still have compared to the rest of the world.",1725.56,1734.46,{"idx":1192,"utterance_id":1193,"speaker_name":135,"text":1194,"start_s":1195,"end_s":1196,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},189,"65139","So the technological and productive development policy and educational policies have to come together.",1734.5,1741.06,{"idx":11,"utterance_id":1198,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1199,"start_s":1200,"end_s":1201,"word_count":128,"indexable":75},"65140","Well, I wanted to ask you one last question.",1741.88,1744.08,{"idx":1203,"utterance_id":1204,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1205,"start_s":1206,"end_s":1207,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},191,"65141","Actually, it's subdivided.",1744.86,1746.52,{"idx":1209,"utterance_id":1210,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1211,"start_s":1212,"end_s":1213,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},192,"65142","First, what is the potential of the so-called economy... of the ecological transition — you mentioned the Green New Deal — do you see opportunities that Brazil could take advantage of?",1747.78,1759.38,{"idx":1215,"utterance_id":1216,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1217,"start_s":1218,"end_s":1219,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},193,"65143","And on this topic, would public investment have a significant role in getting the country out of this crisis that has ceased to be cyclical and seems more structural?",1760.06,1773.9,{"idx":1221,"utterance_id":1222,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1223,"start_s":1224,"end_s":1225,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},194,"65144","What is your view on these two issues for us?",1774.36,1776.54,{"idx":1227,"utterance_id":1228,"speaker_name":135,"text":1229,"start_s":1230,"end_s":1231,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},195,"65145","No, without a doubt.",1777.38,1778.18,{"idx":1233,"utterance_id":1234,"speaker_name":135,"text":1235,"start_s":1236,"end_s":1237,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},196,"65146","I think one of the most urgent things is for us to change our current fiscal rules to spare public investment from this destruction.",1778.22,1786.56,{"idx":56,"utterance_id":1239,"speaker_name":135,"text":1240,"start_s":1241,"end_s":1242,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},"65147","In fact, we are seeing accidents.",1787.1,1788.94,{"idx":1244,"utterance_id":1245,"speaker_name":135,"text":1246,"start_s":1247,"end_s":1248,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},198,"65148","Brazilian infrastructure is deteriorating at such a speed that the risks of ever greater calamities — floods, bridges collapsing — are already visible.",1789.6,1801.26,{"idx":1250,"utterance_id":1251,"speaker_name":135,"text":1252,"start_s":1253,"end_s":1254,"word_count":139,"indexable":75},199,"65149","Really, you are not even investing enough to repair the existing infrastructure.",1801.44,1806.5,{"idx":1256,"utterance_id":1257,"speaker_name":135,"text":1258,"start_s":1259,"end_s":1260,"word_count":442,"indexable":75},200,"65150","And it is evident that there is no possibility, in a country like ours, with this degree of infrastructure shortage, where the population does not even have access to sewage, where you do not have decent urban transport in the large capitals, I mean, to think that you will get out of the crisis without a large investment plan in infrastructure makes no sense to me.",1807.3,1832.94,{"idx":1262,"utterance_id":1263,"speaker_name":135,"text":1264,"start_s":1265,"end_s":1266,"word_count":153,"indexable":75},201,"65151","And the United States is thinking about that plan already with this environmental focus.",1833.08,1836.64,{"idx":1268,"utterance_id":1269,"speaker_name":135,"text":1270,"start_s":1271,"end_s":1272,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},202,"65152","I think we also have to do that.",1837.08,1839.18,{"idx":1274,"utterance_id":1275,"speaker_name":135,"text":1276,"start_s":1277,"end_s":1278,"word_count":202,"indexable":75},203,"65153","I think, moreover, the State will be... Nation-states in the world are essential for us to get out of this climate crisis.",1840.4,1848.52,{"idx":1280,"utterance_id":1281,"speaker_name":135,"text":1282,"start_s":1283,"end_s":1284,"word_count":60,"indexable":75},204,"65154","I don't believe that the private initiative or even positive individual sustainable consumption initiatives can cope with the magnitude of this environmental collapse.",1849.32,1861.7,{"idx":1286,"utterance_id":1287,"speaker_name":135,"text":1288,"start_s":1289,"end_s":1290,"word_count":103,"indexable":75},205,"65155","So, you need the State.",1862.16,1863.5,{"idx":1292,"utterance_id":1293,"speaker_name":135,"text":1294,"start_s":1295,"end_s":1296,"word_count":27,"indexable":75},206,"65156","But in the Brazilian case, I think that, besides thinking about environmental sustainability, these investments have to aim at overcoming these inequalities in basic access to infrastructure, health, and education.",1864.3,1878.14,{"idx":1298,"utterance_id":1299,"speaker_name":135,"text":1300,"start_s":1301,"end_s":1302,"word_count":147,"indexable":75},207,"65157","So, you can't think of economic growth without overcoming these deficiencies of ours.",1878.22,1886.98,{"idx":1304,"utterance_id":1305,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1306,"start_s":1307,"end_s":1308,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},208,"65158","Thank you, Laura Carvalho.",1887.56,1888.76,{"idx":1310,"utterance_id":1311,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1312,"start_s":1313,"end_s":1314,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},209,"65159","We'll be back next week here on OLTV.",1889.24,1892.14,{"idx":1316,"utterance_id":1317,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1318,"start_s":1319,"end_s":1320,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},210,"65160","Thank you.",1892.42,1893.08,{"idx":1322,"utterance_id":1323,"speaker_name":135,"text":1318,"start_s":1324,"end_s":1325,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},211,"65161",1893.2,1909.6,"en",{"job_id":1328,"title":1329,"source_url":1330,"platform":1331,"content_type":1332,"published_at":1333,"duration_sec":1334,"n_classified":1335,"speakers":1336},"ae008be4-ee82-46d5-8272-eb210ec4881b","allTV - Painel Haddad (12\u002F08\u002F2019) - LAURA CARVALHO","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002Fwatch?v=rAvprxhFzE0","youtube","video","2019-08-13T20:20:06Z",1909.609125,212,[1337],{"name":69,"slug":70,"n_falas":585},"https:\u002F\u002Fi.ytimg.com\u002Fvi\u002FrAvprxhFzE0\u002Fhqdefault.jpg",{"limit":4,"offset":5,"speakers":1340,"total":145},[1341,1355,1368,1379,1385,1396,1407,1416,1423,1432],{"slug":1342,"name":1343,"party":1344,"role":1344,"state":1344,"n_speeches":1345,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1346,"photo_url":1350,"bio_short":1344,"wikidata_id":1351,"mandate_status":1352,"social_links":1353},"renan-santos","Renan Santos","",22525,[1347,1348,1349],"Abuse of Authority","Administrative and Labor Reform","Affirmative action","\u002Fprofiles\u002Frenan-santos\u002Fphoto.png","Q51882553","none",{"twitter":1354},"@RenanSantosMBL",{"slug":1356,"name":1357,"party":1344,"role":1344,"state":1358,"n_speeches":1359,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1360,"photo_url":1364,"bio_short":1344,"wikidata_id":1365,"mandate_status":1352,"social_links":1366},"romeu-zema","Romeu Zema","MG",12888,[1361,1362,1363],"Agriculture & Agribusiness","Amnesty and Jan 8 Characterization","Anti-Discrimination","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fromeu-zema\u002Fphoto.png","Q57092113",{"twitter":1367},"@RomeuZema",{"slug":1369,"name":1370,"party":1344,"role":1344,"state":1344,"n_speeches":1371,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1372,"bio_short":1344,"mandate_status":1352,"social_links":1376},"pablo-marcal","Pablo Marçal",12772,[1373,1374,1375],"Agricultural Policy","Business Environment","Campaign Financing",{"twitter":1377,"youtube":1378},"@pablomarcal","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002F@pablomarcall",{"slug":70,"name":69,"party":1344,"role":1344,"state":1380,"n_speeches":1381,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1382,"bio_short":1344,"wikidata_id":1383,"mandate_status":1352,"social_links":1384},"SP",12647,[1373,1361,1363],"Q3069485",{},{"slug":1386,"name":1387,"party":1344,"role":1344,"state":1388,"n_speeches":1389,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1390,"photo_url":1392,"bio_short":1344,"wikidata_id":1393,"mandate_status":1352,"social_links":1394},"ronaldo-caiado","Ronaldo Caiado","GO",12538,[1348,1349,1391],"Agribusiness & Regional Development","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fronaldo-caiado\u002Fphoto.png","Q10364348",{"twitter":1395},"@ronaldocaiado",{"slug":1397,"name":1398,"party":1344,"role":1399,"state":1380,"n_speeches":1400,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1401,"photo_url":1403,"bio_short":1344,"wikidata_id":1404,"mandate_status":1352,"social_links":1405},"tarcisio","Tarcisio","Governador",11298,[1402,1373,1361],"Age of Criminal Responsibility","\u002Fprofiles\u002Ftarcisio\u002Fphoto.png","Q60392579",{"twitter":1406},"tarcisiogdf",{"slug":1408,"name":1409,"party":1344,"role":1344,"state":1344,"n_speeches":1410,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1411,"photo_url":1413,"bio_short":1344,"wikidata_id":1414,"mandate_status":1352,"social_links":1415},"luis-inacio-lula-da-silva","Luis Inacio Lula da Silva",10531,[1373,1361,1412],"Benefits fraud & efficiency","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fluis-inacio-lula-da-silva\u002Fphoto.png","Q37181",{},{"slug":1417,"name":1418,"party":1344,"role":1344,"state":1344,"n_speeches":1419,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1420,"bio_short":1344,"mandate_status":1352,"social_links":1422},"augusto-cury","Augusto Cury",8912,[1391,1421,1373],"Agribusiness \u002F Environment",{},{"slug":1424,"name":1425,"party":1344,"role":1344,"state":1380,"n_speeches":1426,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1427,"photo_url":1428,"bio_short":1344,"wikidata_id":1429,"mandate_status":1352,"social_links":1430},"kim-kataguiri","Kim Kataguiri",8748,[1348,1402,1361],"\u002Fprofiles\u002Fkim-kataguiri\u002Fphoto.png","Q21715169",{"twitter":1431},"@KimKataguiri",{"slug":1433,"name":1434,"party":1344,"role":1344,"state":1435,"n_speeches":1436,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1437,"photo_url":1439,"bio_short":1344,"wikidata_id":1440,"mandate_status":1352,"social_links":1441},"flavio-bolsonaro","Flavio Bolsonaro","RJ",8066,[1373,1361,1438],"Anti-Fascism","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fflavio-bolsonaro\u002Fphoto.png","Q10283057",{"twitter":1442},"@FlavioBolsonaro"]