[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"footer-top-topics-en":3,"transcript-9f4e64fc-f35c-48a8-9c81-e2abd5f093dd-en":65,"transcript-poster-9f4e64fc-f35c-48a8-9c81-e2abd5f093dd":1960,"footer-top-speakers-en":1961},{"limit":4,"offset":5,"topics":6,"total":64},10,0,[7,13,19,25,31,36,41,47,53,58],{"label":8,"n_speakers":9,"n_utterances":10,"n_videos":11,"slug":12},"National Security",26,2695,190,"seguranca-nacional",{"label":14,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":16,"n_videos":17,"slug":18},"Education",32,1685,229,"educacao",{"label":20,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":22,"n_videos":23,"slug":24},"Public Safety and Order",23,1580,244,"seguranca-publica-e-ordem",{"label":26,"n_speakers":27,"n_utterances":28,"n_videos":29,"slug":30},"Combating Impunity",33,1469,292,"combate-a-impunidade",{"label":32,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":33,"n_videos":34,"slug":35},"Monetary Policy",1448,303,"politica-monetaria",{"label":37,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":38,"n_videos":39,"slug":40},"Judiciary",846,149,"poder-judiciario",{"label":42,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":44,"n_videos":45,"slug":46},"Public Service",28,788,178,"servico-publico",{"label":48,"n_speakers":49,"n_utterances":50,"n_videos":51,"slug":52},"Public Health \u002F Public Safety",25,756,139,"saude-publica-seguranca-publica",{"label":54,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":55,"n_videos":56,"slug":57},"Social Policy",684,197,"politica-social",{"label":59,"n_speakers":60,"n_utterances":61,"n_videos":62,"slug":63},"Fiscal Reform",22,671,134,"reforma-fiscal",625,{"falas":66,"lang":1948,"meta":1949},[67,76,83,90,97,104,110,116,122,128,134,139,145,151,158,164,170,175,182,188,194,199,204,208,213,218,223,228,233,238,244,250,256,261,266,272,278,283,289,295,301,307,313,319,325,331,337,343,349,355,361,367,373,379,385,391,397,403,409,415,421,427,433,439,445,451,457,463,469,475,481,487,493,499,505,511,517,523,529,535,541,547,553,559,565,571,577,583,589,595,601,607,613,619,625,631,637,643,649,655,661,667,672,678,684,690,696,702,708,714,720,726,732,738,744,750,756,762,768,774,780,786,792,798,804,810,816,822,828,834,840,846,852,858,864,869,875,881,887,893,898,904,910,916,922,928,934,940,946,952,957,963,969,975,981,987,993,999,1005,1011,1017,1023,1029,1035,1041,1047,1053,1059,1065,1071,1077,1083,1089,1095,1101,1107,1113,1119,1125,1130,1136,1142,1148,1154,1160,1166,1171,1177,1183,1189,1195,1200,1206,1212,1218,1224,1229,1235,1240,1246,1252,1258,1264,1270,1276,1282,1288,1294,1300,1306,1312,1318,1324,1330,1336,1342,1347,1353,1359,1365,1371,1377,1383,1389,1395,1401,1407,1413,1419,1425,1430,1436,1442,1448,1454,1460,1466,1472,1478,1484,1490,1496,1502,1508,1514,1519,1525,1531,1537,1543,1549,1555,1561,1567,1573,1579,1585,1591,1597,1603,1609,1615,1621,1627,1633,1639,1645,1651,1657,1663,1669,1675,1681,1687,1693,1699,1705,1711,1717,1723,1729,1735,1741,1747,1753,1759,1765,1771,1777,1783,1789,1795,1801,1806,1812,1818,1824,1830,1835,1841,1847,1853,1859,1865,1870,1876,1882,1888,1894,1900,1906,1912,1918,1924,1930,1936,1942],{"idx":5,"utterance_id":68,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":71,"start_s":72,"end_s":73,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},"85403","Fernando Haddad","fernando-haddad","My guest today is an economist and holds a law degree.",9.02,12.2,11,false,{"idx":77,"utterance_id":78,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":79,"start_s":80,"end_s":81,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},1,"85404","He has been a professor at Fundação Getúlio Vargas in São Paulo since 1959 and has edited the journal Economia Política since 1981.",12.42,21.4,20,{"idx":84,"utterance_id":85,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":86,"start_s":87,"end_s":88,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},2,"85405","He served as Minister of Finance in the Sarney government and as Minister of Administration and Minister of Science and Technology in the Fernando Henrique Cardoso government.",21.72,29.84,21,{"idx":91,"utterance_id":92,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":93,"start_s":94,"end_s":95,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},3,"85406","Good evening, Professor Bressa Pereira.",30.46,32.1,5,{"idx":98,"utterance_id":99,"speaker_name":100,"text":101,"start_s":102,"end_s":103,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},4,"85407","Desconhecido","Good evening, Fernando.",32.34,32.88,{"idx":96,"utterance_id":105,"speaker_name":100,"text":106,"start_s":107,"end_s":108,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},"85408","It's a pleasure to have you here.",32.92,34.96,7,{"idx":111,"utterance_id":112,"speaker_name":100,"text":113,"start_s":114,"end_s":115,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},6,"85409","Likewise.",35.28,35.58,{"idx":109,"utterance_id":117,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":118,"start_s":119,"end_s":120,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},"85410","How do you see it... Do you think Lula was a victim of a feeling similar to the feeling that shook the industrialists' relations with Getúlio?",36.72,49.88,27,{"idx":123,"utterance_id":124,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":125,"start_s":126,"end_s":127,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},8,"85411","What goes on in the mind of the Brazilian businessman?",50.46,54.14,{"idx":129,"utterance_id":130,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":131,"start_s":132,"end_s":133,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},9,"85412","that he is detaching himself from an agenda that seemed like an interesting resurgence in a process of emancipation of the Brazilian State?",54.82,65.68,{"idx":4,"utterance_id":135,"speaker_name":100,"text":136,"start_s":137,"end_s":138,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},"85413","So, that question is important.",66.36,67.72,{"idx":74,"utterance_id":140,"speaker_name":100,"text":141,"start_s":142,"end_s":143,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},"85414","And look, when PT (Workers' Party) emerged in 1980, it came with a very radical discourse.",68.18,78.08,15,{"idx":146,"utterance_id":147,"speaker_name":100,"text":148,"start_s":149,"end_s":150,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},12,"85415","It was a discourse of socialist revolution, the idea of socialism, socialism and so on.",79.24,83.3,{"idx":152,"utterance_id":153,"speaker_name":100,"text":154,"start_s":155,"end_s":156,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},13,"85416","Although Lula was never a revolutionary, in my view, that was the rhetoric.",84.26,89.48,16,{"idx":159,"utterance_id":160,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":161,"start_s":162,"end_s":163,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},14,"85417","A labor leader who became a social democrat.",89.84,93.44,{"idx":144,"utterance_id":165,"speaker_name":100,"text":166,"start_s":167,"end_s":168,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},"85418","Lula is that, but I'm saying that the PT's rhetoric was further to the left.",94.66,98.98,19,{"idx":157,"utterance_id":171,"speaker_name":100,"text":172,"start_s":173,"end_s":174,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},"85419","That is to say, that made the bourgeoisie very worried throughout the 1980s.",99.56,104.9,{"idx":176,"utterance_id":177,"speaker_name":100,"text":178,"start_s":179,"end_s":180,"word_count":181,"indexable":75},17,"85420","Now, at the end, on the eve of being elected... this is already 2002, I mean, he wrote the letter to the Brazilian people.",105.92,117.28,24,{"idx":183,"utterance_id":184,"speaker_name":100,"text":185,"start_s":186,"end_s":187,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},18,"85421","And then he made it clear, look, I'm not here to carry out any revolution, I'm a social democrat, I want to manage capitalism better than the capitalists.",117.76,125.96,{"idx":169,"utterance_id":189,"speaker_name":100,"text":190,"start_s":191,"end_s":192,"word_count":193,"indexable":75},"85422","I have a commitment to the people, I will not abandon that commitment, but I think it's perfectly possible to attend to the workers and the people and naturally keep the capitalist system functioning as it is.",127.12,140.06,36,{"idx":82,"utterance_id":195,"speaker_name":100,"text":196,"start_s":197,"end_s":198,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},"85423","That was the message and that quickly proved to be the case after his election.",141.06,147.78,{"idx":89,"utterance_id":200,"speaker_name":100,"text":201,"start_s":202,"end_s":203,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},"85424","He kept his word.",149.32,150.22,{"idx":60,"utterance_id":205,"speaker_name":100,"text":201,"start_s":206,"end_s":207,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},"85425",150.26,151.26,{"idx":21,"utterance_id":209,"speaker_name":100,"text":210,"start_s":211,"end_s":212,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},"85426","So his eight years in office were a huge success.",152.28,156.84,{"idx":181,"utterance_id":214,"speaker_name":100,"text":215,"start_s":216,"end_s":217,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},"85427","A huge economic success, because Brazil grew a lot, greatly benefited by that strong rise in commodity prices.",157.9,165.36,{"idx":49,"utterance_id":219,"speaker_name":100,"text":220,"start_s":221,"end_s":222,"word_count":183,"indexable":75},"85428","It was also a huge success... On the international level, Brazil's foreign policy projected the country in an extraordinary way.",168.42,175.32,{"idx":9,"utterance_id":224,"speaker_name":100,"text":225,"start_s":226,"end_s":227,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},"85429","Brazil really became a partner of the major countries, an intermediary in solving the problems here in Latin America.",175.36,183.5,{"idx":121,"utterance_id":229,"speaker_name":100,"text":230,"start_s":231,"end_s":232,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},"85430","Wonderful.",184.44,185,{"idx":43,"utterance_id":234,"speaker_name":100,"text":235,"start_s":236,"end_s":237,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},"85431","And he finished with an approval rating of 87%.",185.64,190.36,{"idx":239,"utterance_id":240,"speaker_name":100,"text":241,"start_s":242,"end_s":243,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},29,"85432","That is, the bourgeoisie was also with Lula at that moment.",191.04,194.08,{"idx":245,"utterance_id":246,"speaker_name":100,"text":247,"start_s":248,"end_s":249,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},30,"85433","But you know how it is. Lula never stopped saying, 'I am committed to the poor.'",195.74,201.42,{"idx":251,"utterance_id":252,"speaker_name":100,"text":253,"start_s":254,"end_s":255,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},31,"85434","He made many concessions; any politician has to make compromises.",202.98,206.66,{"idx":15,"utterance_id":257,"speaker_name":100,"text":258,"start_s":259,"end_s":260,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},"85435","He made compromises, compromises.",206.72,208.94,{"idx":27,"utterance_id":262,"speaker_name":100,"text":263,"start_s":264,"end_s":265,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},"85436","But without abandoning his basic commitment to the poor and to the workers.",209.28,213.58,{"idx":267,"utterance_id":268,"speaker_name":100,"text":269,"start_s":270,"end_s":271,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},34,"85437","And then Dilma's government came.",215,216.16,{"idx":273,"utterance_id":274,"speaker_name":100,"text":275,"start_s":276,"end_s":277,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},35,"85438","And during Dilma's government an economic crisis occurred.",217.04,219.14,{"idx":193,"utterance_id":279,"speaker_name":100,"text":280,"start_s":281,"end_s":282,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},"85439","And an economic crisis that was to some extent... was inherited from Lula.",219.36,223.1,{"idx":284,"utterance_id":285,"speaker_name":100,"text":286,"start_s":287,"end_s":288,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},37,"85440","The exchange rate had again become strongly appreciated.",223.94,227.14,{"idx":290,"utterance_id":291,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":292,"start_s":293,"end_s":294,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},38,"85441","Despite the purchase of foreign-exchange reserves at the level of 400 billion dollars.",230.06,236.1,{"idx":296,"utterance_id":297,"speaker_name":100,"text":298,"start_s":299,"end_s":300,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},39,"85442","It's because Brazil's success was so great that the economic magazine made that famous cover of Christ the Redeemer flying, turning into a rocket that was taking off.",236.14,247.86,{"idx":302,"utterance_id":303,"speaker_name":100,"text":304,"start_s":305,"end_s":306,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},40,"85443","I mean, capital wanted to come in here in every possible way.",248.28,250.74,{"idx":308,"utterance_id":309,"speaker_name":100,"text":310,"start_s":311,"end_s":312,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},41,"85444","And you buy reserves to hold it back a bit, but that's all that was done.",252.14,255.48,{"idx":314,"utterance_id":315,"speaker_name":100,"text":316,"start_s":317,"end_s":318,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},42,"85445","There was also an attempt to implement some capital controls, which Guido Mantega did, but it didn't work, it wasn't sufficient.",256.16,262.12,{"idx":320,"utterance_id":321,"speaker_name":100,"text":322,"start_s":323,"end_s":324,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},43,"85446","The fact is the exchange rate remained highly appreciated.",263.08,266.02,{"idx":326,"utterance_id":327,"speaker_name":100,"text":328,"start_s":329,"end_s":330,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},44,"85447","And what happened then?",266.86,268.06,{"idx":332,"utterance_id":333,"speaker_name":100,"text":334,"start_s":335,"end_s":336,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},45,"85448","The thing is, imports of manufactured goods, from 2011 onwards, flooded into Brazil.",268.3,275.56,{"idx":338,"utterance_id":339,"speaker_name":100,"text":340,"start_s":341,"end_s":342,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},46,"85449","It always takes a few years, about three years on average, for you to organize the importation of manufactured goods.",276.92,282.56,{"idx":344,"utterance_id":345,"speaker_name":100,"text":346,"start_s":347,"end_s":348,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},47,"85450","It's very different from importing commodities, which you sort out immediately; you just do it... on the exchange, right?",282.66,288.64,{"idx":350,"utterance_id":351,"speaker_name":100,"text":352,"start_s":353,"end_s":354,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},48,"85451","On the exchange, exactly.",288.68,289.96,{"idx":356,"utterance_id":357,"speaker_name":100,"text":358,"start_s":359,"end_s":360,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},49,"85452","But in Mata Prata it's very different.",290.02,291.24,{"idx":362,"utterance_id":363,"speaker_name":100,"text":364,"start_s":365,"end_s":366,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},50,"85453","And when all that came in, Brazilian industry went into crisis.",292.2,296.38,{"idx":368,"utterance_id":369,"speaker_name":100,"text":370,"start_s":371,"end_s":372,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},51,"85454","The industry's profit rate fell brutally.",297,299.48,{"idx":374,"utterance_id":375,"speaker_name":100,"text":376,"start_s":377,"end_s":378,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},52,"85455","Now, that then created a serious problem for industrialists.",301.08,304.06,{"idx":380,"utterance_id":381,"speaker_name":100,"text":382,"start_s":383,"end_s":384,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},53,"85456","Still in 2011, interestingly, there was a major effort at an alliance between industrialists and workers, one in which Fiesp participated.",305.06,315.54,{"idx":386,"utterance_id":387,"speaker_name":100,"text":388,"start_s":389,"end_s":390,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},54,"85457","And there was a large meeting at an events venue that was a factory in Moca.",316.32,324.4,{"idx":392,"utterance_id":393,"speaker_name":100,"text":394,"start_s":395,"end_s":396,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},55,"85458","I went there, invited.",325.08,326.72,{"idx":398,"utterance_id":399,"speaker_name":100,"text":400,"start_s":401,"end_s":402,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},56,"85459","There were almost a thousand workers and the businessmen giving speeches.",327.3,331.42,{"idx":404,"utterance_id":405,"speaker_name":100,"text":406,"start_s":407,"end_s":408,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},57,"85460","That was curious.",332.4,333.36,{"idx":410,"utterance_id":411,"speaker_name":100,"text":412,"start_s":413,"end_s":414,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},58,"85461","But there that was the swan song.",335.34,339,{"idx":416,"utterance_id":417,"speaker_name":100,"text":418,"start_s":419,"end_s":420,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},59,"85462","That was the end of it.",339.9,340.7,{"idx":422,"utterance_id":423,"speaker_name":100,"text":424,"start_s":425,"end_s":426,"word_count":43,"indexable":75},60,"85463","Because then Dilma also began to act; Dilma had become very popular because she dismissed a number of corrupt ministers at the start of her government.",341.48,352.44,{"idx":428,"utterance_id":429,"speaker_name":100,"text":430,"start_s":431,"end_s":432,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},61,"85464","So, I think she became very arrogant.",354.08,355.46,{"idx":434,"utterance_id":435,"speaker_name":100,"text":436,"start_s":437,"end_s":438,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},62,"85465","She is a woman... honest, upright, full of public spirit, but she is not a politician.",355.54,360.64,{"idx":440,"utterance_id":441,"speaker_name":100,"text":442,"start_s":443,"end_s":444,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},63,"85466","Definitely, she is the opposite of a politician.",361.16,363.36,{"idx":446,"utterance_id":447,"speaker_name":100,"text":448,"start_s":449,"end_s":450,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},64,"85467","As a result, she began taking measures that greatly annoyed the whole bourgeoisie, because the bourgeoisie does not like interventionism and arrogance.",364.72,373.56,{"idx":452,"utterance_id":453,"speaker_name":100,"text":454,"start_s":455,"end_s":456,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},65,"85468","And I don't know what happened.",374.82,375.9,{"idx":458,"utterance_id":459,"speaker_name":100,"text":460,"start_s":461,"end_s":462,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},66,"85469","I mean, then the thing... Then there were the 2013 protests.",376.36,380.54,{"idx":464,"utterance_id":465,"speaker_name":100,"text":466,"start_s":467,"end_s":468,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},67,"85470","And nobody manages to fully understand what happened there.",381.1,383.44,{"idx":470,"utterance_id":471,"speaker_name":100,"text":472,"start_s":473,"end_s":474,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},68,"85471","In 2013.",383.74,384.38,{"idx":476,"utterance_id":477,"speaker_name":100,"text":478,"start_s":479,"end_s":480,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},69,"85472","But you experienced it, because you were mayor.",384.44,386.7,{"idx":482,"utterance_id":483,"speaker_name":100,"text":484,"start_s":485,"end_s":486,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},70,"85473","It actually started with the damn free-fare movement.",387.52,391.02,{"idx":488,"utterance_id":489,"speaker_name":100,"text":490,"start_s":491,"end_s":492,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},71,"85474","Exactly.",391.56,391.98,{"idx":494,"utterance_id":495,"speaker_name":100,"text":496,"start_s":497,"end_s":498,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},72,"85475","Which was being done by a left-wing group.",392.06,393.46,{"idx":500,"utterance_id":501,"speaker_name":100,"text":502,"start_s":503,"end_s":504,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},73,"85476","But the fact is that something happened there and... And then the hatred began.",393.94,401.04,{"idx":506,"utterance_id":507,"speaker_name":100,"text":508,"start_s":509,"end_s":510,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},74,"85477","Something I had never seen in my life in Brazil was hatred.",401.8,404.92,{"idx":512,"utterance_id":513,"speaker_name":100,"text":514,"start_s":515,"end_s":516,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},75,"85478","Not even in the '50s, '60s?",405,405.86,{"idx":518,"utterance_id":519,"speaker_name":100,"text":520,"start_s":521,"end_s":522,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},76,"85479","No, in the '60s.",405.92,407.92,{"idx":524,"utterance_id":525,"speaker_name":100,"text":526,"start_s":527,"end_s":528,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},77,"85480","Pre-coup?",408.58,409.2,{"idx":530,"utterance_id":531,"speaker_name":100,"text":532,"start_s":533,"end_s":534,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},78,"85481","In the pre-coup period there was fear.",409.36,410.56,{"idx":536,"utterance_id":537,"speaker_name":100,"text":538,"start_s":539,"end_s":540,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},79,"85482","Fear is a very different thing from a coup.",411.22,413.08,{"idx":542,"utterance_id":543,"speaker_name":100,"text":544,"start_s":545,"end_s":546,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},80,"85483","Wasn't it hatred?",413.16,413.92,{"idx":548,"utterance_id":549,"speaker_name":100,"text":550,"start_s":551,"end_s":552,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},81,"85484","No, it was fear.",414.06,415.46,{"idx":554,"utterance_id":555,"speaker_name":100,"text":556,"start_s":557,"end_s":558,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},82,"85485","They were worried and thinking it could go to communism.",416.14,419.14,{"idx":560,"utterance_id":561,"speaker_name":100,"text":562,"start_s":563,"end_s":564,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},83,"85486","But to hate whom?",419.56,420.84,{"idx":566,"utterance_id":567,"speaker_name":100,"text":568,"start_s":569,"end_s":570,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},84,"85487","To hate João Goulart?",421.34,422.36,{"idx":572,"utterance_id":573,"speaker_name":100,"text":574,"start_s":575,"end_s":576,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},85,"85488","You couldn't hate João Goulart.",422.46,423.66,{"idx":578,"utterance_id":579,"speaker_name":100,"text":580,"start_s":581,"end_s":582,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},86,"85489","He was a man who was there doing what he could.",423.7,426.12,{"idx":584,"utterance_id":585,"speaker_name":100,"text":586,"start_s":587,"end_s":588,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},87,"85490","You also had a commitment to the people, but much... even smaller than Lula's.",426.28,431.44,{"idx":590,"utterance_id":591,"speaker_name":100,"text":592,"start_s":593,"end_s":594,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},88,"85491","So, not here.",432.44,434.08,{"idx":596,"utterance_id":597,"speaker_name":100,"text":598,"start_s":599,"end_s":600,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},89,"85492","Hatred is something that rarely appears in politics, because hatred is anti-politics.",434.28,439.62,{"idx":602,"utterance_id":603,"speaker_name":100,"text":604,"start_s":605,"end_s":606,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},90,"85493","Hatred is what happened with Hitler's Germany.",440.5,443.26,{"idx":608,"utterance_id":609,"speaker_name":100,"text":610,"start_s":611,"end_s":612,"word_count":15,"indexable":75},91,"85494","I mean, the German people became filled with hatred, with hatred due to the defeat in the First World War, due to the Treaty of Versailles, which was abusive toward that people.",444.16,457.74,{"idx":614,"utterance_id":615,"speaker_name":100,"text":616,"start_s":617,"end_s":618,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},92,"85495","Also as a consequence of the hyperinflation that broke out in Germany in 1922.",458.64,464.44,{"idx":620,"utterance_id":621,"speaker_name":100,"text":622,"start_s":623,"end_s":624,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},93,"85496","The Weimar Republic.",468.18,469.42,{"idx":626,"utterance_id":627,"speaker_name":100,"text":628,"start_s":629,"end_s":630,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},94,"85497","This is the Weimar Republic.",469.76,473.54,{"idx":632,"utterance_id":633,"speaker_name":100,"text":634,"start_s":635,"end_s":636,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},95,"85498","There was hatred there, there was hatred here as well.",473.8,476.16,{"idx":638,"utterance_id":639,"speaker_name":100,"text":640,"start_s":641,"end_s":642,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},96,"85499","Hatred is anti-political; it suspends reasoning.",477.98,481.94,{"idx":644,"utterance_id":645,"speaker_name":100,"text":646,"start_s":647,"end_s":648,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},97,"85500","Suddenly, against Lula and the PT.",484.54,487.94,{"idx":650,"utterance_id":651,"speaker_name":100,"text":652,"start_s":653,"end_s":654,"word_count":43,"indexable":75},98,"85501","Moreover, because they began to say, 'we don't want...' When they saw that Dilma had a chance of being re-elected and ended up being re-elected, things got worse.",492.18,500.46,{"idx":656,"utterance_id":657,"speaker_name":100,"text":658,"start_s":659,"end_s":660,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},99,"85502","And on the day after the re-election...",501.36,502.7,{"idx":662,"utterance_id":663,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":664,"start_s":665,"end_s":666,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},100,"85503","Her re-election seemed unacceptable to the opposition.",503.34,506.5,{"idx":668,"utterance_id":669,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":490,"start_s":670,"end_s":671,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},101,"85504",506.54,507.2,{"idx":673,"utterance_id":674,"speaker_name":100,"text":675,"start_s":676,"end_s":677,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},102,"85505","That was... And the curious thing about this is that, at the same time, the crisis of Dilma's government revived neoliberalism in Brazil.",510.96,522.74,{"idx":679,"utterance_id":680,"speaker_name":100,"text":681,"start_s":682,"end_s":683,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},103,"85506","Neoliberalism in Brazil had already been present under Fernando Henrique, but it was a social neoliberalism; on the social side Fernando Henrique took good care.",523.54,531.12,{"idx":685,"utterance_id":686,"speaker_name":100,"text":687,"start_s":688,"end_s":689,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},104,"85507","He did poorly on the economic side.",532,534.32,{"idx":691,"utterance_id":692,"speaker_name":100,"text":693,"start_s":694,"end_s":695,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},105,"85508","That he really wasn't very interested in a national and developmental policy.",535.38,540.58,{"idx":697,"utterance_id":698,"speaker_name":100,"text":699,"start_s":700,"end_s":701,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},106,"85509","That wasn't it.",540.86,541.36,{"idx":703,"utterance_id":704,"speaker_name":100,"text":705,"start_s":706,"end_s":707,"word_count":338,"indexable":75},107,"85510","But now, when January 2015 begins, suddenly we discovered, all of Brazilian society discovers, Dilma included, I think, that Brazil was in a great recession, which was not known during the election, and that it was in a great fiscal crisis.",541.82,561.58,{"idx":709,"utterance_id":710,"speaker_name":100,"text":711,"start_s":712,"end_s":713,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},108,"85511","Part of which was the responsibility of the excessive spending that Dilma had done and the tax relief measures she implemented.",563.78,568.92,{"idx":715,"utterance_id":716,"speaker_name":100,"text":717,"start_s":718,"end_s":719,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},109,"85512","So, I then saw a very strong neoliberal ideological hegemony occur among the Brazilian elites.",569.68,578.76,{"idx":721,"utterance_id":722,"speaker_name":100,"text":723,"start_s":724,"end_s":725,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},110,"85513","So it was hatred plus neoliberalism, which is a very authoritarian thing.",578.8,582.12,{"idx":727,"utterance_id":728,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":729,"start_s":730,"end_s":731,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},111,"85514","Well, it could only lead to Bolsonaro, right?",582.56,584.18,{"idx":733,"utterance_id":734,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":735,"start_s":736,"end_s":737,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},112,"85515","Hatred plus neoliberalism is exactly what Bolsonaro's government seems to be.",584.84,588.4,{"idx":739,"utterance_id":740,"speaker_name":100,"text":741,"start_s":742,"end_s":743,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},113,"85516","I mean, actually... All of this created, in my view, three very bad things.",588.64,593.22,{"idx":745,"utterance_id":746,"speaker_name":100,"text":747,"start_s":748,"end_s":749,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},114,"85517","The first was the impeachment.",593.58,594.68,{"idx":751,"utterance_id":752,"speaker_name":100,"text":753,"start_s":754,"end_s":755,"word_count":344,"indexable":75},115,"85518","The impeachment was a coup by Temer, the vice-president, who realized that if he carried out a program as he did — a 'bridge to the future' that was utterly neoliberal — he would get the support of the neoliberals, who were full of hatred, and he would, through the impeachment, become president.",595.5,615.08,{"idx":757,"utterance_id":758,"speaker_name":100,"text":759,"start_s":760,"end_s":761,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},116,"85519","It worked.",615.36,615.9,{"idx":763,"utterance_id":764,"speaker_name":100,"text":765,"start_s":766,"end_s":767,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},117,"85520","Moro did exactly the same thing.",617.2,618.82,{"idx":769,"utterance_id":770,"speaker_name":100,"text":771,"start_s":772,"end_s":773,"word_count":239,"indexable":75},118,"85521","He realized, he and Delanhol saw that if they attacked Lula, Operation Car Wash would be a huge success and he would have a brilliant future in life.",618.86,627.64,{"idx":775,"utterance_id":776,"speaker_name":100,"text":777,"start_s":778,"end_s":779,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},119,"85522","So they attacked Lula hard and forcefully.",629,631.32,{"idx":781,"utterance_id":782,"speaker_name":100,"text":783,"start_s":784,"end_s":785,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},120,"85523","Now it is proven that it was a political strategy.",631.38,635.38,{"idx":787,"utterance_id":788,"speaker_name":100,"text":789,"start_s":790,"end_s":791,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},121,"85524","Bolsonaro did exactly the same thing.",638.12,640.92,{"idx":793,"utterance_id":794,"speaker_name":100,"text":795,"start_s":796,"end_s":797,"word_count":251,"indexable":75},122,"85525","He, who had nothing to do with neoliberalism, hired Guedes, who is indeed a fanatical neoliberal, taking advantage of that neoliberalism and of that hatred in the Brazilian bourgeoisie.",641.38,656.96,{"idx":799,"utterance_id":800,"speaker_name":100,"text":801,"start_s":802,"end_s":803,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},123,"85526","But I think that's coming to an end.",657.4,659.8,{"idx":805,"utterance_id":806,"speaker_name":100,"text":807,"start_s":808,"end_s":809,"word_count":326,"indexable":75},124,"85527","I am convinced that the disaster of these first ten months of Bolsonaro's government, the profound demoralization that is spread throughout Brazilian society — and it's not only on the left, it's everywhere — is this thing, it's the unspeakable that is in the government.",660.74,680.18,{"idx":811,"utterance_id":812,"speaker_name":100,"text":813,"start_s":814,"end_s":815,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},125,"85528","I saw a young man saying that... What was in the government was a bunch of clowns who weren't funny at all, who had no humor whatsoever.",682.04,691.44,{"idx":817,"utterance_id":818,"speaker_name":100,"text":819,"start_s":820,"end_s":821,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},126,"85529","People losing any respect for him, because he doesn't give himself respect.",693.6,696.78,{"idx":823,"utterance_id":824,"speaker_name":100,"text":825,"start_s":826,"end_s":827,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},127,"85530","So, I think we need to end this hatred, end this grudge, because we have things to do.",698.92,705.98,{"idx":829,"utterance_id":830,"speaker_name":100,"text":831,"start_s":832,"end_s":833,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},128,"85531","I wrote an article recently in Folha, which I even translated into English afterwards, called 'After the Nightmare'.",707.12,713.5,{"idx":835,"utterance_id":836,"speaker_name":100,"text":837,"start_s":838,"end_s":839,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},129,"85532","And in that article I say, like, I thought — I didn't write this, but I thought, 'oh how I miss Fernando Henrique'.",715,722.54,{"idx":841,"utterance_id":842,"speaker_name":100,"text":843,"start_s":844,"end_s":845,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},130,"85533","You didn't write it, but you thought it.",724.86,726.42,{"idx":847,"utterance_id":848,"speaker_name":100,"text":849,"start_s":850,"end_s":851,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},131,"85534","And what I wrote was more or less saying that.",726.84,728.72,{"idx":853,"utterance_id":854,"speaker_name":100,"text":855,"start_s":856,"end_s":857,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},132,"85535","I said, look, because we had, between 1995 and 2000... 12, 14, we had an alternation between two parties.",728.76,740.84,{"idx":859,"utterance_id":860,"speaker_name":100,"text":861,"start_s":862,"end_s":863,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},133,"85536","A center-left party, which was the PT, and a center-right party, which was the PSDB.",740.9,745.58,{"idx":62,"utterance_id":865,"speaker_name":100,"text":866,"start_s":867,"end_s":868,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},"85537","Both had different positions, disagreements.",746.4,749.46,{"idx":870,"utterance_id":871,"speaker_name":100,"text":872,"start_s":873,"end_s":874,"word_count":181,"indexable":75},135,"85538","I, who started, didn't move to the other, because I thought my party was social-democratic and it wasn't; it was right-wing.",749.84,757.08,{"idx":876,"utterance_id":877,"speaker_name":100,"text":878,"start_s":879,"end_s":880,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},136,"85539","But, I mean, we lived in a fairly reasonable understanding.",757.5,761.72,{"idx":882,"utterance_id":883,"speaker_name":100,"text":884,"start_s":885,"end_s":886,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},137,"85540","We thought the other was wrong, the other thought we were wrong, but there was dialogue, there was debate.",762.92,767.16,{"idx":888,"utterance_id":889,"speaker_name":100,"text":890,"start_s":891,"end_s":892,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},138,"85541","And respect.",767.54,768.12,{"idx":51,"utterance_id":894,"speaker_name":100,"text":895,"start_s":896,"end_s":897,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},"85542","And respect, which is fundamental in politics, is essential for democracy.",768.2,771.56,{"idx":899,"utterance_id":900,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":901,"start_s":902,"end_s":903,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},140,"85543","Sometimes the press gives a lot of attention to the spats, right?",771.6,774.34,{"idx":905,"utterance_id":906,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":907,"start_s":908,"end_s":909,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},141,"85544","But in fact, there is a civilized climate.",774.94,777.9,{"idx":911,"utterance_id":912,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":913,"start_s":914,"end_s":915,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},142,"85545","Of course, exactly.",778.04,779.68,{"idx":917,"utterance_id":918,"speaker_name":100,"text":919,"start_s":920,"end_s":921,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},143,"85546","Democracy and politics are a contest between adversaries.",780.5,785.26,{"idx":923,"utterance_id":924,"speaker_name":100,"text":925,"start_s":926,"end_s":927,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},144,"85547","When you have hatred, people become enemies.",787.9,790.1,{"idx":929,"utterance_id":930,"speaker_name":100,"text":931,"start_s":932,"end_s":933,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},145,"85548","It's war.",790.16,790.56,{"idx":935,"utterance_id":936,"speaker_name":100,"text":937,"start_s":938,"end_s":939,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},146,"85549","That doesn't lead to democracy, it doesn't lead to good government, it doesn't lead to anything.",791.74,794.56,{"idx":941,"utterance_id":942,"speaker_name":100,"text":943,"start_s":944,"end_s":945,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},147,"85550","But I think this climate of hatred is disappearing.",796.14,798.78,{"idx":947,"utterance_id":948,"speaker_name":100,"text":949,"start_s":950,"end_s":951,"word_count":302,"indexable":75},148,"85551","And I think it's necessary that both the PT's center-left... and the PSTB's center-right, or whatever it is now that everything has shifted a bit, begin again to understand each other and to talk, and to abandon this frenzied behavior.",799.78,817.8,{"idx":39,"utterance_id":953,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":954,"start_s":955,"end_s":956,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},"85552","Now I want, after that... we've done a good retrospective, but I'd like to think things over with you.",818.36,826.12,{"idx":958,"utterance_id":959,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":960,"start_s":961,"end_s":962,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},150,"85553","I've been reading you since I was very young.",827.58,829.86,{"idx":964,"utterance_id":965,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":966,"start_s":967,"end_s":968,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},151,"85554","I wrote a book about the collapse of socialism.",830.86,833.94,{"idx":970,"utterance_id":971,"speaker_name":100,"text":972,"start_s":973,"end_s":974,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},152,"85555","I read your book.",834.7,835.44,{"idx":976,"utterance_id":977,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":978,"start_s":979,"end_s":980,"word_count":267,"indexable":75},153,"85556","Partly, you had written a book shortly before on the technobureaucracy, which was already very much aligned with the contemporary thinking about what that experience had been.",835.84,855.24,{"idx":982,"utterance_id":983,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":984,"start_s":985,"end_s":986,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},154,"85557","Then you wrote — I, by then a believer, came across your texts on... Inertial Inflation.",855.34,864.5,{"idx":988,"utterance_id":989,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":990,"start_s":991,"end_s":992,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},155,"85558","More recently, I revisited some of your texts and books.",866.7,871.82,{"idx":994,"utterance_id":995,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":996,"start_s":997,"end_s":998,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},156,"85559","By the way, I'm reading the latest one you generously gave me.",872.02,875.9,{"idx":1000,"utterance_id":1001,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1002,"start_s":1003,"end_s":1004,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},157,"85560","I'm finishing reading about developmentalism.",876.36,878.3,{"idx":1006,"utterance_id":1007,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1008,"start_s":1009,"end_s":1010,"word_count":60,"indexable":75},158,"85561","And I'd like to focus on your latest critical reflection on Brazil's history, which points toward the future.",880.18,888.94,{"idx":1012,"utterance_id":1013,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1014,"start_s":1015,"end_s":1016,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},159,"85562","You put forward a new provocation.",889.6,893.06,{"idx":1018,"utterance_id":1019,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1020,"start_s":1021,"end_s":1022,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},160,"85563","You remain a young, very stimulating thinker on the macroeconomic assumptions of development.",894.48,903.06,{"idx":1024,"utterance_id":1025,"speaker_name":100,"text":1026,"start_s":1027,"end_s":1028,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},161,"85564","Yes.",903.28,903.66,{"idx":1030,"utterance_id":1031,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1032,"start_s":1033,"end_s":1034,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},162,"85565","Which, in my opinion, as far as I know, I hadn't seen in the literature.",904.48,909.84,{"idx":1036,"utterance_id":1037,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1038,"start_s":1039,"end_s":1040,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},163,"85566","Meaning the following: look, it's obvious that developmentalism is microeconomics.",910.94,915.24,{"idx":1042,"utterance_id":1043,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1044,"start_s":1045,"end_s":1046,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},164,"85567","Petrobras, as large as it may be, is a microeconomic experiment.",916.14,920.64,{"idx":1048,"utterance_id":1049,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1050,"start_s":1051,"end_s":1052,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},165,"85568","Compared to... macroeconomic policy and so on.",921.24,925.22,{"idx":1054,"utterance_id":1055,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1056,"start_s":1057,"end_s":1058,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},166,"85569","But there are macroeconomic assumptions, which, in my opinion, is something new in the literature.",925.28,931.02,{"idx":1060,"utterance_id":1061,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1062,"start_s":1063,"end_s":1064,"word_count":251,"indexable":75},167,"85570","And you say that there are some equilibria that need to be maintained so that a development project can be fruitful in the country, can deliver the maximum welfare and economic growth.",931.3,944.18,{"idx":1066,"utterance_id":1067,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1068,"start_s":1069,"end_s":1070,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},168,"85571","And, correct me if I'm wrong, but you talk about five... You call them prices.",945.16,950.44,{"idx":1072,"utterance_id":1073,"speaker_name":100,"text":1074,"start_s":1075,"end_s":1076,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},169,"85572","They are prices.",950.48,950.96,{"idx":1078,"utterance_id":1079,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1080,"start_s":1081,"end_s":1082,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},170,"85573","They are prices in some way.",951.7,952.9,{"idx":1084,"utterance_id":1085,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1086,"start_s":1087,"end_s":1088,"word_count":181,"indexable":75},171,"85574","But you talk about the interest rate, you talk about wages, you talk about profit, you talk about the exchange rate and you talk about inflation.",954.74,961.9,{"idx":1090,"utterance_id":1091,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1092,"start_s":1093,"end_s":1094,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},172,"85575","You say that the macroeconomist who is thinking about the country, who is thinking about development, has to take care of these issues.",961.94,972.44,{"idx":1096,"utterance_id":1097,"speaker_name":100,"text":1098,"start_s":1099,"end_s":1100,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},173,"85576","That's right.",972.58,972.78,{"idx":1102,"utterance_id":1103,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1104,"start_s":1105,"end_s":1106,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},174,"85577","And you always make it clear.",973.5,974.7,{"idx":1108,"utterance_id":1109,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1110,"start_s":1111,"end_s":1112,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},175,"85578","These are assumptions, this is not development.",975.02,977.52,{"idx":1114,"utterance_id":1115,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1116,"start_s":1117,"end_s":1118,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},176,"85579","Because development is, afterwards, knowing what to do from that.",977.56,980.74,{"idx":1120,"utterance_id":1121,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1122,"start_s":1123,"end_s":1124,"word_count":15,"indexable":75},177,"85580","But if I don't have fiscal balance, if I don't have a series of preconditions, I will have imbalances that will work against the project, at least in the medium and long term.",981.3,992.04,{"idx":45,"utterance_id":1126,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1127,"start_s":1128,"end_s":1129,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},"85581","I would like you to explore a bit where that intuition came from, who you are dialoguing with.",993.68,1001.76,{"idx":1131,"utterance_id":1132,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1133,"start_s":1134,"end_s":1135,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},179,"85582","Are you dialoguing with the old developmentalists or with the new neoliberals?",1002.2,1007.24,{"idx":1137,"utterance_id":1138,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1139,"start_s":1140,"end_s":1141,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},180,"85583","How do you situate yourself in the economic debate in Brazil today?",1007.66,1010.88,{"idx":1143,"utterance_id":1144,"speaker_name":100,"text":1145,"start_s":1146,"end_s":1147,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},181,"85584","So, I have a doctorate in economics from USP, but I am fundamentally self-taught.",1011.1,1017.56,{"idx":1149,"utterance_id":1150,"speaker_name":100,"text":1151,"start_s":1152,"end_s":1153,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},182,"85585","I never had a regular, standard, high-level economics course.",1017.6,1022.14,{"idx":1155,"utterance_id":1156,"speaker_name":100,"text":1157,"start_s":1158,"end_s":1159,"word_count":284,"indexable":75},183,"85586","That is to say, in my education, my formation, let's say between ages 20 and 50, it was fundamentally in developmentalism, having Celso Furtado and Inácio Rangel here in Brazil as references, Arthur Lewis, Albert Hirschman more broadly.",1022.74,1045.72,{"idx":1161,"utterance_id":1162,"speaker_name":100,"text":1163,"start_s":1164,"end_s":1165,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},184,"85587","Prebisch as well?",1045.76,1046.46,{"idx":232,"utterance_id":1167,"speaker_name":100,"text":1168,"start_s":1169,"end_s":1170,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},"85588","Prebisch as well, without a doubt, fundamental.",1046.68,1048.92,{"idx":1172,"utterance_id":1173,"speaker_name":100,"text":1174,"start_s":1175,"end_s":1176,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},186,"85589","I mean, when 1980 arrived, the external debt crisis and high inflation exploded in Brazil.",1049.44,1057.76,{"idx":1178,"utterance_id":1179,"speaker_name":100,"text":1180,"start_s":1181,"end_s":1182,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},187,"85590","Then I saw, look, there's no point in studying developmentalism without Brazil.",1058.54,1062.56,{"idx":1184,"utterance_id":1185,"speaker_name":100,"text":1186,"start_s":1187,"end_s":1188,"word_count":152,"indexable":75},188,"85591","First to solve the problem of high inflation and the external debt crisis.",1062.64,1066.92,{"idx":1190,"utterance_id":1191,"speaker_name":100,"text":1192,"start_s":1193,"end_s":1194,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},189,"85592","So I stopped teaching; I used to give courses on economic development and Brazilian economics at GV.",1067.3,1071.12,{"idx":11,"utterance_id":1196,"speaker_name":100,"text":1197,"start_s":1198,"end_s":1199,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},"85593","I stopped that and began.",1071.64,1072.54,{"idx":1201,"utterance_id":1202,"speaker_name":100,"text":1203,"start_s":1204,"end_s":1205,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},191,"85594","Ah, it was because of that.",1072.6,1073.76,{"idx":1207,"utterance_id":1208,"speaker_name":100,"text":1209,"start_s":1210,"end_s":1211,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},192,"85595","It was because of that.",1073.8,1074.28,{"idx":1213,"utterance_id":1214,"speaker_name":100,"text":1215,"start_s":1216,"end_s":1217,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},193,"85596","So that's back in the past.",1074.34,1075.82,{"idx":1219,"utterance_id":1220,"speaker_name":100,"text":1221,"start_s":1222,"end_s":1223,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},194,"85597","It's back there.",1075.88,1076.34,{"idx":1225,"utterance_id":1226,"speaker_name":100,"text":1221,"start_s":1227,"end_s":1228,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},195,"85598",1076.44,1077.68,{"idx":1230,"utterance_id":1231,"speaker_name":100,"text":1232,"start_s":1233,"end_s":1234,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},196,"85599","And then I set about studying.",1077.98,1079.5,{"idx":56,"utterance_id":1236,"speaker_name":100,"text":1237,"start_s":1238,"end_s":1239,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},"85600","I had always studied a bit, had already studied macroeconomics, had already taught macroeconomics as well, but only a little.",1079.54,1084.16,{"idx":1241,"utterance_id":1242,"speaker_name":100,"text":1243,"start_s":1244,"end_s":1245,"word_count":60,"indexable":75},198,"85601","From 1980 on I no longer taught... unless it was on inflation and the external debt crisis.",1084.72,1093.7,{"idx":1247,"utterance_id":1248,"speaker_name":100,"text":1249,"start_s":1250,"end_s":1251,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},199,"85602","That's how I became minister.",1094.5,1095.72,{"idx":1253,"utterance_id":1254,"speaker_name":100,"text":1255,"start_s":1256,"end_s":1257,"word_count":308,"indexable":75},200,"85603","When I left the ministry — that was in '87, when I was Minister of Finance — I came into contact with the post-Keynesians in the United States, and then I came to have a... which is the most important group of heterodox economists.",1096.24,1110.38,{"idx":1259,"utterance_id":1260,"speaker_name":100,"text":1261,"start_s":1262,"end_s":1263,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},201,"85604","Developmentalists.",1111.3,1112.4,{"idx":1265,"utterance_id":1266,"speaker_name":100,"text":1267,"start_s":1268,"end_s":1269,"word_count":193,"indexable":75},202,"85605","So I came to have a dual formation, a developmentalist formation, which has a bit of Marx as well — this is very important in that formation — and thus has a view of history, and a Keynesian macroeconomic view.",1112.88,1127.28,{"idx":1271,"utterance_id":1272,"speaker_name":100,"text":1273,"start_s":1274,"end_s":1275,"word_count":181,"indexable":75},203,"85606","I mean, then when I left government for the second time, in '99, I realized that Brazil had been semi-stagnant for 20 years.",1128,1137.74,{"idx":1277,"utterance_id":1278,"speaker_name":100,"text":1279,"start_s":1280,"end_s":1281,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},204,"85607","Brazil had grown enormously until 1980 and since then had been growing very slowly.",1138.96,1145.52,{"idx":1283,"utterance_id":1284,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1285,"start_s":1286,"end_s":1287,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},205,"85608","They were two lost decades from the point of view of growth.",1145.8,1148.48,{"idx":1289,"utterance_id":1290,"speaker_name":100,"text":1291,"start_s":1292,"end_s":1293,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},206,"85609","Now it's four.",1148.56,1149.42,{"idx":1295,"utterance_id":1296,"speaker_name":100,"text":1297,"start_s":1298,"end_s":1299,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},207,"85610","Because when I left government I wrote an article about Brazil's 20 years of near stagnation.",1150.24,1156.62,{"idx":1301,"utterance_id":1302,"speaker_name":100,"text":1303,"start_s":1304,"end_s":1305,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},208,"85611","Later, a few years afterwards, I wrote about the macroeconomics of Brazilian stagnation.",1156.7,1161.14,{"idx":1307,"utterance_id":1308,"speaker_name":100,"text":1309,"start_s":1310,"end_s":1311,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},209,"85612","Then I wrote about the 27 years.",1161.2,1162.96,{"idx":1313,"utterance_id":1314,"speaker_name":100,"text":1315,"start_s":1316,"end_s":1317,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},210,"85613","Then the 37 and now the 40.",1163.38,1165.1,{"idx":1319,"utterance_id":1320,"speaker_name":100,"text":1321,"start_s":1322,"end_s":1323,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},211,"85614","That was the last article I wrote.",1165.48,1166.6,{"idx":1325,"utterance_id":1326,"speaker_name":100,"text":1327,"start_s":1328,"end_s":1329,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},212,"85615","A tragedy.",1166.64,1167.74,{"idx":1331,"utterance_id":1332,"speaker_name":100,"text":1333,"start_s":1334,"end_s":1335,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},213,"85616","I mean, I needed to understand that, I needed to find a solution for it.",1168.7,1173.02,{"idx":1337,"utterance_id":1338,"speaker_name":100,"text":1339,"start_s":1340,"end_s":1341,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},214,"85617","And the solution I found, and today I have a large group of economists participating in this, is called the new developmentalism.",1173.18,1181.28,{"idx":270,"utterance_id":1343,"speaker_name":100,"text":1344,"start_s":1345,"end_s":1346,"word_count":290,"indexable":75},"85618","And, look, the fundamental idea is which countries really succeeded in developing in the 20th century and accomplished the so-called catching up — the reaching of the development levels of rich countries.",1182.62,1197.8,{"idx":1348,"utterance_id":1349,"speaker_name":100,"text":1350,"start_s":1351,"end_s":1352,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},216,"85619","They were the East Asian countries.",1198.44,1199.86,{"idx":1354,"utterance_id":1355,"speaker_name":100,"text":1356,"start_s":1357,"end_s":1358,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},217,"85620","It was South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, and later China.",1200.24,1205.42,{"idx":1360,"utterance_id":1361,"speaker_name":100,"text":1362,"start_s":1363,"end_s":1364,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},218,"85621","Japan had been a little earlier.",1205.9,1207.22,{"idx":1366,"utterance_id":1367,"speaker_name":100,"text":1368,"start_s":1369,"end_s":1370,"word_count":183,"indexable":75},219,"85622","That is, there were some important studies in the 1980s showing that these countries had pursued industrial policy.",1209.2,1217.56,{"idx":1372,"utterance_id":1373,"speaker_name":100,"text":1374,"start_s":1375,"end_s":1376,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},220,"85623","Industrial policy — so that's what the Brazilian, Latin American, if not global, developmentalist left came to adopt as the solution?",1218.84,1226.7,{"idx":1378,"utterance_id":1379,"speaker_name":100,"text":1380,"start_s":1381,"end_s":1382,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},221,"85624","It's resolved.",1226.82,1228.4,{"idx":1384,"utterance_id":1385,"speaker_name":100,"text":1386,"start_s":1387,"end_s":1388,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},222,"85625","The solution for development is industrial policy.",1228.76,1230.8,{"idx":1390,"utterance_id":1391,"speaker_name":100,"text":1392,"start_s":1393,"end_s":1394,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},223,"85626","In the time of classical developmentalism...",1231.24,1232.6,{"idx":1396,"utterance_id":1397,"speaker_name":100,"text":1398,"start_s":1399,"end_s":1400,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},224,"85627","It was reduced to that, wasn't it?",1232.64,1233.42,{"idx":1402,"utterance_id":1403,"speaker_name":100,"text":1404,"start_s":1405,"end_s":1406,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},225,"85628","It was reduced to that.",1233.46,1234.3,{"idx":1408,"utterance_id":1409,"speaker_name":100,"text":1410,"start_s":1411,"end_s":1412,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},226,"85629","I mean, before it was economic planning, now it was industrial policy.",1235.18,1238.76,{"idx":1414,"utterance_id":1415,"speaker_name":100,"text":1416,"start_s":1417,"end_s":1418,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},227,"85630","Then I looked at... I said, well, I'm in favor of industrial policy, I always have been, I think it's still necessary.",1240.62,1245.38,{"idx":1420,"utterance_id":1421,"speaker_name":100,"text":1422,"start_s":1423,"end_s":1424,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},228,"85631","Every country that wants to develop does it — just look historically.",1245.42,1248.56,{"idx":17,"utterance_id":1426,"speaker_name":100,"text":1427,"start_s":1428,"end_s":1429,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},"85632","But let's see what happened in the East Asian countries.",1249,1251.84,{"idx":1431,"utterance_id":1432,"speaker_name":100,"text":1433,"start_s":1434,"end_s":1435,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},230,"85633","I mean, what happened with the... Then I saw this idea, about the five macroeconomic prices.",1253.06,1258.14,{"idx":1437,"utterance_id":1438,"speaker_name":100,"text":1439,"start_s":1440,"end_s":1441,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},231,"85634","I mean, they maintained them — were those prices right?",1259.06,1262.82,{"idx":1443,"utterance_id":1444,"speaker_name":100,"text":1445,"start_s":1446,"end_s":1447,"word_count":422,"indexable":75},232,"85635","They always maintained them, because at the same time I was perceiving that in Brazil, what was happening — and not only in Brazil, but in middle-income countries like Brazil — was that the interest rate tended to be very high, the exchange rate, consequently, tended to be very appreciated, and this made economic activity unviable.",1263.54,1280.6,{"idx":1449,"utterance_id":1450,"speaker_name":100,"text":1451,"start_s":1452,"end_s":1453,"word_count":183,"indexable":75},233,"85636","The inflation rate was high, then it fell, but at the expense of the exchange rate... which was very bad.",1281.38,1289.32,{"idx":1455,"utterance_id":1456,"speaker_name":100,"text":1457,"start_s":1458,"end_s":1459,"word_count":89,"indexable":75},234,"85637","So I developed a theory on that side, but at the same time I asked, what is the developmentalist state?",1290.46,1297.6,{"idx":1461,"utterance_id":1462,"speaker_name":100,"text":1463,"start_s":1464,"end_s":1465,"word_count":290,"indexable":75},235,"85638","So the developmentalist state, for me, is not just the state that pursues industrial policy, that invests in infrastructure, that cares for education and health, that seeks... technological development and industrial policy.",1298.4,1315.66,{"idx":1467,"utterance_id":1468,"speaker_name":100,"text":1469,"start_s":1470,"end_s":1471,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},236,"85639","It's not just that.",1315.7,1316.26,{"idx":1473,"utterance_id":1474,"speaker_name":100,"text":1475,"start_s":1476,"end_s":1477,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},237,"85640","It is that and it is also, as you said, as a prerequisite, to permanently guarantee, through active policy, balance, or to keep certain macroeconomic prices steady.",1316.4,1330.68,{"idx":1479,"utterance_id":1480,"speaker_name":100,"text":1481,"start_s":1482,"end_s":1483,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},238,"85641","Because, what is the difference between a developmentalist and a liberal?",1331.38,1335.28,{"idx":1485,"utterance_id":1486,"speaker_name":100,"text":1487,"start_s":1488,"end_s":1489,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},239,"85642","Because, at bottom, there are two basic economic theories.",1335.32,1338.2,{"idx":1491,"utterance_id":1492,"speaker_name":100,"text":1493,"start_s":1494,"end_s":1495,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},240,"85643","Either you are liberal or you are a developmentalist.",1338.82,1341.22,{"idx":1497,"utterance_id":1498,"speaker_name":100,"text":1499,"start_s":1500,"end_s":1501,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},241,"85644","Keynesians, to me, are developmentalists.",1342.6,1344.44,{"idx":1503,"utterance_id":1504,"speaker_name":100,"text":1505,"start_s":1506,"end_s":1507,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},242,"85645","I mean, there are several types of developmentalism, to varying degrees, but it's one or the other.",1344.84,1350.26,{"idx":1509,"utterance_id":1510,"speaker_name":100,"text":1511,"start_s":1512,"end_s":1513,"word_count":267,"indexable":75},243,"85646","That is, and what developmentalism says is that there are certain things that are not competitive — the infrastructure sector, the basic industry sector — so the state needs to plan.",1350.86,1361.8,{"idx":23,"utterance_id":1515,"speaker_name":100,"text":1516,"start_s":1517,"end_s":1518,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},"85647","There are certain sectors that you need to protect because there is the problem of... of an infant industry, so you have to invest.",1363.34,1370.04,{"idx":1520,"utterance_id":1521,"speaker_name":100,"text":1522,"start_s":1523,"end_s":1524,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},245,"85648","There are certain sectors, then, that justify microeconomic intervention.",1370.68,1374.22,{"idx":1526,"utterance_id":1527,"speaker_name":100,"text":1528,"start_s":1529,"end_s":1530,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},246,"85649","Very well.",1374.82,1375.18,{"idx":1532,"utterance_id":1533,"speaker_name":100,"text":1534,"start_s":1535,"end_s":1536,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},247,"85650","Because, with prices, the market does not work as well as we would like.",1375.68,1379.4,{"idx":1538,"utterance_id":1539,"speaker_name":100,"text":1540,"start_s":1541,"end_s":1542,"word_count":183,"indexable":75},248,"85651","Although the market is a wonderful institution for economic coordination, it is indispensable for what is truly competitive.",1379.7,1388.06,{"idx":1544,"utterance_id":1545,"speaker_name":100,"text":1546,"start_s":1547,"end_s":1548,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},249,"85652","It is an institution based on competition.",1389.06,1390.74,{"idx":1550,"utterance_id":1551,"speaker_name":100,"text":1552,"start_s":1553,"end_s":1554,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},250,"85653","Now, the other sector that nobody used to talk about, this is new, is... The market is also absolutely incapable of putting these five prices in the right place.",1391.28,1401.32,{"idx":1556,"utterance_id":1557,"speaker_name":100,"text":1558,"start_s":1559,"end_s":1560,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},251,"85654","So, what happened in the East Asian countries?",1402.22,1404.44,{"idx":1562,"utterance_id":1563,"speaker_name":100,"text":1564,"start_s":1565,"end_s":1566,"word_count":273,"indexable":75},252,"85655","They managed those prices very firmly, especially the exchange rate, which they kept competitive, and the interest rate, which they always kept very low, and thus ensured a satisfactory rate of profit for entrepreneurs.",1404.5,1416.14,{"idx":1568,"utterance_id":1569,"speaker_name":100,"text":1570,"start_s":1571,"end_s":1572,"word_count":91,"indexable":75},253,"85656","They guaranteed equilibrium.",1417.56,1418.82,{"idx":1574,"utterance_id":1575,"speaker_name":100,"text":1576,"start_s":1577,"end_s":1578,"word_count":159,"indexable":75},254,"85657","And one very important thing, they did not... act irresponsibly from a fiscal point of view.",1419.6,1425.38,{"idx":1580,"utterance_id":1581,"speaker_name":100,"text":1582,"start_s":1583,"end_s":1584,"word_count":273,"indexable":75},255,"85658","There is an idea among the left and the press in general that the difference between left and right in macroeconomic matters is that the left is austere, the right is austere, and the left is profligate.",1426.24,1438.18,{"idx":1586,"utterance_id":1587,"speaker_name":100,"text":1588,"start_s":1589,"end_s":1590,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},256,"85659","I think that is madness.",1439.38,1440.32,{"idx":1592,"utterance_id":1593,"speaker_name":100,"text":1594,"start_s":1595,"end_s":1596,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},257,"85660","That is to say, I know very well what austerity is.",1440.68,1443.4,{"idx":1598,"utterance_id":1599,"speaker_name":100,"text":1600,"start_s":1601,"end_s":1602,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},258,"85661","It is such stupidity that has been committed in Brazil today by this government, actually since 2015.",1443.82,1449.8,{"idx":1604,"utterance_id":1605,"speaker_name":100,"text":1606,"start_s":1607,"end_s":1608,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},259,"85662","In a severe crisis and you, instead of undertaking a countercyclical fiscal expansion, are holding back, cutting investment.",1450.84,1459.1,{"idx":1610,"utterance_id":1611,"speaker_name":100,"text":1612,"start_s":1613,"end_s":1614,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},260,"85663","You have to be increasing investment.",1459.14,1460.56,{"idx":1616,"utterance_id":1617,"speaker_name":100,"text":1618,"start_s":1619,"end_s":1620,"word_count":239,"indexable":75},261,"85664","But when you look at the countries that actually developed, you will see that they always maintained a... fiscal balance and, more than that, they maintained public savings.",1460.94,1473.8,{"idx":1622,"utterance_id":1623,"speaker_name":100,"text":1624,"start_s":1625,"end_s":1626,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},262,"85665","I have advocated for this public savings for many years.",1474.48,1476.72,{"idx":1628,"utterance_id":1629,"speaker_name":100,"text":1630,"start_s":1631,"end_s":1632,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},263,"85666","That is, public savings is the difference between what the State receives in revenues and what it spends on current expenditures.",1477.24,1483.56,{"idx":1634,"utterance_id":1635,"speaker_name":100,"text":1636,"start_s":1637,"end_s":1638,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},264,"85667","It is what is left over and that the State uses to invest.",1485.96,1489.1,{"idx":1640,"utterance_id":1641,"speaker_name":100,"text":1642,"start_s":1643,"end_s":1644,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},265,"85668","Because in a capitalist society like ours, the State should invest roughly 20%.",1489.66,1494.98,{"idx":1646,"utterance_id":1647,"speaker_name":100,"text":1648,"start_s":1649,"end_s":1650,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},266,"85669","And the investment the State makes — about 20% of total investment — greatly helps private investment; it is not competitive with private investment.",1496.66,1504.72,{"idx":1652,"utterance_id":1653,"speaker_name":100,"text":1654,"start_s":1655,"end_s":1656,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},267,"85670","Sometimes it is the flagship.",1505.76,1507.14,{"idx":1658,"utterance_id":1659,"speaker_name":100,"text":1660,"start_s":1661,"end_s":1662,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},268,"85671","So this theory is out there.",1507.18,1508.62,{"idx":1664,"utterance_id":1665,"speaker_name":100,"text":1666,"start_s":1667,"end_s":1668,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},269,"85672","And I hope that this theory is attracting increasing interest.",1509.74,1513.82,{"idx":1670,"utterance_id":1671,"speaker_name":100,"text":1672,"start_s":1673,"end_s":1674,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},270,"85673","We have been holding international seminars; people come from outside Brazil, from various countries, to discuss with us, etc.",1514.2,1521.52,{"idx":1676,"utterance_id":1677,"speaker_name":100,"text":1678,"start_s":1679,"end_s":1680,"word_count":181,"indexable":75},271,"85674","Many of our papers are in the journal of political economy, which is now called Brazilian Journal of Political Economy; it also has the English name.",1523.78,1530.02,{"idx":1682,"utterance_id":1683,"speaker_name":100,"text":1684,"start_s":1685,"end_s":1686,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},272,"85675","And with that we will see if Brazil recovers, because Brazil desperately needs to rediscover its path economically.",1531.02,1539.38,{"idx":1688,"utterance_id":1689,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1690,"start_s":1691,"end_s":1692,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},273,"85676","Brazilian, I end this conversation, which could have gone on for a week, with the following question.",1539.78,1546.66,{"idx":1694,"utterance_id":1695,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1696,"start_s":1697,"end_s":1698,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},274,"85677","You are someone who has lived the national life intensely.",1547.38,1552.76,{"idx":1700,"utterance_id":1701,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1702,"start_s":1703,"end_s":1704,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},275,"85678","You have participated in governments, you have taken part in academic life.",1552.8,1557.28,{"idx":1706,"utterance_id":1707,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1708,"start_s":1709,"end_s":1710,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},276,"85679","We are at a delicate moment.",1558.9,1560.28,{"idx":1712,"utterance_id":1713,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1714,"start_s":1715,"end_s":1716,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},277,"85680","Brazil is at a difficult crossroads.",1560.74,1562.96,{"idx":1718,"utterance_id":1719,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1720,"start_s":1721,"end_s":1722,"word_count":183,"indexable":75},278,"85681","What are the social forces that you see could be at the table to overcome this difficult moment?",1563.8,1573.54,{"idx":1724,"utterance_id":1725,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1726,"start_s":1727,"end_s":1728,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},279,"85682","This project requires people.",1574.08,1576.12,{"idx":1730,"utterance_id":1731,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1732,"start_s":1733,"end_s":1734,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},280,"85683","There must be people behind it.",1576.64,1577.98,{"idx":1736,"utterance_id":1737,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1738,"start_s":1739,"end_s":1740,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},281,"85684","Political forces, popular movements, social movements, the business sector.",1578.48,1582.88,{"idx":1742,"utterance_id":1743,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1744,"start_s":1745,"end_s":1746,"word_count":251,"indexable":75},282,"85685","So, in light of all your experience, which spans more than 50 years of lived experience, not as a spectator but as a participant, who are the actors of this project?",1583.82,1598.06,{"idx":1748,"utterance_id":1749,"speaker_name":100,"text":1750,"start_s":1751,"end_s":1752,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},283,"85686","So, look, this is very difficult to answer.",1598.72,1600.38,{"idx":1754,"utterance_id":1755,"speaker_name":100,"text":1756,"start_s":1757,"end_s":1758,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},284,"85687","In principle, we would like there to be once again a great national developmental pact, involving entrepreneurs, workers, the middle classes, and a public bureaucracy that would become national again.",1602.16,1612.7,{"idx":1760,"utterance_id":1761,"speaker_name":100,"text":1762,"start_s":1763,"end_s":1764,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},285,"85688","Because Brazil has become deeply denationalized.",1614.98,1617.3,{"idx":1766,"utterance_id":1767,"speaker_name":100,"text":1768,"start_s":1769,"end_s":1770,"word_count":183,"indexable":75},286,"85689","When one defends nation and economic development — a national project — one is also defending growth.",1618.08,1627.78,{"idx":1772,"utterance_id":1773,"speaker_name":100,"text":1774,"start_s":1775,"end_s":1776,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},287,"85690","We lost all of that.",1628.26,1629.54,{"idx":1778,"utterance_id":1779,"speaker_name":100,"text":1780,"start_s":1781,"end_s":1782,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},288,"85691","The business class today is destroyed.",1632.72,1636.2,{"idx":1784,"utterance_id":1785,"speaker_name":100,"text":1786,"start_s":1787,"end_s":1788,"word_count":169,"indexable":75},289,"85692","The success of imperialism in destroying our industry, or in buying it, but usually it ends up destroying it.",1638.68,1644.42,{"idx":1790,"utterance_id":1791,"speaker_name":100,"text":1792,"start_s":1793,"end_s":1794,"word_count":176,"indexable":75},290,"85693","Therefore, today industry represents 10% of GDP in Brazil; it once represented 26% or 27%.",1644.48,1651.04,{"idx":1796,"utterance_id":1797,"speaker_name":100,"text":1798,"start_s":1799,"end_s":1800,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},291,"85694","It is a deep deindustrialization.",1651.92,1654.02,{"idx":29,"utterance_id":1802,"speaker_name":100,"text":1803,"start_s":1804,"end_s":1805,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},"85695","Now, there is an interesting thing, that is, there was a great Marxist political scientist called Pulantzas.",1655.1,1661.44,{"idx":1807,"utterance_id":1808,"speaker_name":100,"text":1809,"start_s":1810,"end_s":1811,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},293,"85696","And the Raio of Pulantzas made a fascinating analysis of the State.",1662.4,1667.14,{"idx":1813,"utterance_id":1814,"speaker_name":100,"text":1815,"start_s":1816,"end_s":1817,"word_count":43,"indexable":75},294,"85697","He showed, at a certain point, and social classes, he shows that, at certain moments, it is the State that, to a certain extent, creates social classes.",1667.78,1675.84,{"idx":1819,"utterance_id":1820,"speaker_name":100,"text":1821,"start_s":1822,"end_s":1823,"word_count":146,"indexable":75},295,"85698","This was clearly: it creates — that is to say, it recognizes and gives them identity.",1676.5,1680,{"idx":1825,"utterance_id":1826,"speaker_name":100,"text":1827,"start_s":1828,"end_s":1829,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},296,"85699","As it were, it constitutes them, so to speak.",1680.84,1682.78,{"idx":371,"utterance_id":1831,"speaker_name":100,"text":1832,"start_s":1833,"end_s":1834,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},"85700","This, as 'constitutes,' is better than 'creates.'",1682.82,1684.44,{"idx":1836,"utterance_id":1837,"speaker_name":100,"text":1838,"start_s":1839,"end_s":1840,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},298,"85701","That is what happened very clearly with Getúlio Vargas back in the 1930s and 1940s.",1685.08,1689.76,{"idx":1842,"utterance_id":1843,"speaker_name":100,"text":1844,"start_s":1845,"end_s":1846,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},299,"85702","He constituted as a class the working class, the class of industrial entrepreneurs, and the modern Brazilian public bureaucracy, which were the major actors.",1690.44,1699.3,{"idx":1848,"utterance_id":1849,"speaker_name":100,"text":1850,"start_s":1851,"end_s":1852,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},300,"85703","So, Brazil needs this construction again.",1699.78,1702.86,{"idx":1854,"utterance_id":1855,"speaker_name":100,"text":1856,"start_s":1857,"end_s":1858,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},301,"85704","How do you do that?",1704.1,1705.06,{"idx":1860,"utterance_id":1861,"speaker_name":100,"text":1862,"start_s":1863,"end_s":1864,"word_count":96,"indexable":75},302,"85705","There is no magic formula.",1705.32,1708.3,{"idx":34,"utterance_id":1866,"speaker_name":100,"text":1867,"start_s":1868,"end_s":1869,"word_count":144,"indexable":75},"85706","But, that is to say, never has Brazil so strongly needed to disarm its spirits and unite.",1708.4,1714.98,{"idx":1871,"utterance_id":1872,"speaker_name":100,"text":1873,"start_s":1874,"end_s":1875,"word_count":60,"indexable":75},304,"85707","So, this allows sectors that are alienated, believing that economic liberalism can solve our problems — that is a ridiculous thing.",1716.58,1727.58,{"idx":1877,"utterance_id":1878,"speaker_name":100,"text":1879,"start_s":1880,"end_s":1881,"word_count":157,"indexable":75},305,"85708","The big difference between developmentalism and liberalism, in terms of results, is the following.",1728.78,1733.58,{"idx":1883,"utterance_id":1884,"speaker_name":100,"text":1885,"start_s":1886,"end_s":1887,"word_count":121,"indexable":75},306,"85709","In a country like Brazil or Argentina, still developing, the chance that economic liberalism will promote economic development is zero.",1734.04,1742.48,{"idx":1889,"utterance_id":1890,"speaker_name":100,"text":1891,"start_s":1892,"end_s":1893,"word_count":98,"indexable":75},307,"85710","It has no chance at all.",1743.2,1744.22,{"idx":1895,"utterance_id":1896,"speaker_name":100,"text":1897,"start_s":1898,"end_s":1899,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},308,"85711","The chance for developmentalism is, let us say, 50%.",1744.9,1747.64,{"idx":1901,"utterance_id":1902,"speaker_name":100,"text":1903,"start_s":1904,"end_s":1905,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},309,"85712","If well managed, it succeeds.",1748.42,1750.06,{"idx":1907,"utterance_id":1908,"speaker_name":100,"text":1909,"start_s":1910,"end_s":1911,"word_count":111,"indexable":75},310,"85713","If it is not well managed, it will...",1750.14,1751.42,{"idx":1913,"utterance_id":1914,"speaker_name":100,"text":1915,"start_s":1916,"end_s":1917,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},311,"85714","Brazzer.",1753.24,1753.54,{"idx":1919,"utterance_id":1920,"speaker_name":100,"text":1921,"start_s":1922,"end_s":1923,"word_count":123,"indexable":75},312,"85715","An honor and a pleasure to talk with you.",1753.58,1756.28,{"idx":1925,"utterance_id":1926,"speaker_name":100,"text":1927,"start_s":1928,"end_s":1929,"word_count":109,"indexable":75},313,"85716","It is a pleasure to speak with you as well.",1756.32,1757.56,{"idx":1931,"utterance_id":1932,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1933,"start_s":1934,"end_s":1935,"word_count":129,"indexable":75},314,"85717","I have just interviewed Professor Luiz Carlos Brazzer Pereira.",1757.64,1760.52,{"idx":1937,"utterance_id":1938,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1939,"start_s":1940,"end_s":1941,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},315,"85718","Next week, I will be here with a new interview to discuss Brazilian and Latin American reality, always at 8 p.m., on All TV and on social networks.",1760.84,1770.6,{"idx":1943,"utterance_id":1944,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1945,"start_s":1946,"end_s":1947,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},316,"85719","Good night.",1771.06,1780.84,"en",{"job_id":1950,"title":1951,"source_url":1952,"platform":1953,"content_type":1954,"published_at":1955,"duration_sec":1956,"n_classified":1957,"speakers":1958},"9f4e64fc-f35c-48a8-9c81-e2abd5f093dd","Painel Haddad (23\u002F09\u002F2019) - BRESSER PEREIRA","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002Fwatch?v=g2009L9fCwo","youtube","video","2019-09-23T23:00:11Z",1780.854438,317,[1959],{"name":69,"slug":70,"n_falas":410},"https:\u002F\u002Fi.ytimg.com\u002Fvi\u002Fg2009L9fCwo\u002Fhqdefault.jpg",{"limit":4,"offset":5,"speakers":1962,"total":284},[1963,1977,1990,2001,2007,2018,2029,2038,2045,2054],{"slug":1964,"name":1965,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":1966,"n_speeches":1967,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1968,"photo_url":1972,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":1973,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":1975},"renan-santos","Renan Santos","",22525,[1969,1970,1971],"Abuse of Authority","Administrative and Labor Reform","Affirmative action","\u002Fprofiles\u002Frenan-santos\u002Fphoto.png","Q51882553","none",{"twitter":1976},"@RenanSantosMBL",{"slug":1978,"name":1979,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":1980,"n_speeches":1981,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1982,"photo_url":1986,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":1987,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":1988},"romeu-zema","Romeu Zema","MG",12888,[1983,1984,1985],"Agriculture & Agribusiness","Amnesty and Jan 8 Characterization","Anti-Discrimination","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fromeu-zema\u002Fphoto.png","Q57092113",{"twitter":1989},"@RomeuZema",{"slug":1991,"name":1992,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":1966,"n_speeches":1993,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":1994,"bio_short":1966,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":1998},"pablo-marcal","Pablo Marçal",12772,[1995,1996,1997],"Agricultural Policy","Business Environment","Campaign Financing",{"twitter":1999,"youtube":2000},"@pablomarcal","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002F@pablomarcall",{"slug":70,"name":69,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":2002,"n_speeches":2003,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2004,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":2005,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2006},"SP",12647,[1995,1983,1985],"Q3069485",{},{"slug":2008,"name":2009,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":2010,"n_speeches":2011,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2012,"photo_url":2014,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":2015,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2016},"ronaldo-caiado","Ronaldo Caiado","GO",12538,[1970,1971,2013],"Agribusiness & Regional Development","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fronaldo-caiado\u002Fphoto.png","Q10364348",{"twitter":2017},"@ronaldocaiado",{"slug":2019,"name":2020,"party":1966,"role":2021,"state":2002,"n_speeches":2022,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2023,"photo_url":2025,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":2026,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2027},"tarcisio","Tarcisio","Governador",11298,[2024,1995,1983],"Age of Criminal Responsibility","\u002Fprofiles\u002Ftarcisio\u002Fphoto.png","Q60392579",{"twitter":2028},"tarcisiogdf",{"slug":2030,"name":2031,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":1966,"n_speeches":2032,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2033,"photo_url":2035,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":2036,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2037},"luis-inacio-lula-da-silva","Luis Inacio Lula da Silva",10531,[1995,1983,2034],"Benefits fraud & efficiency","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fluis-inacio-lula-da-silva\u002Fphoto.png","Q37181",{},{"slug":2039,"name":2040,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":1966,"n_speeches":2041,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2042,"bio_short":1966,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2044},"augusto-cury","Augusto Cury",8912,[2013,2043,1995],"Agribusiness \u002F Environment",{},{"slug":2046,"name":2047,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":2002,"n_speeches":2048,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2049,"photo_url":2050,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":2051,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2052},"kim-kataguiri","Kim Kataguiri",8748,[1970,2024,1983],"\u002Fprofiles\u002Fkim-kataguiri\u002Fphoto.png","Q21715169",{"twitter":2053},"@KimKataguiri",{"slug":2055,"name":2056,"party":1966,"role":1966,"state":2057,"n_speeches":2058,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2059,"photo_url":2061,"bio_short":1966,"wikidata_id":2062,"mandate_status":1974,"social_links":2063},"flavio-bolsonaro","Flavio Bolsonaro","RJ",8066,[1995,1983,2060],"Anti-Fascism","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fflavio-bolsonaro\u002Fphoto.png","Q10283057",{"twitter":2064},"@FlavioBolsonaro"]