[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"footer-top-topics-en":3,"transcript-7f522a24-61fa-4021-a98e-34b4e574ed76-en":65,"transcript-poster-7f522a24-61fa-4021-a98e-34b4e574ed76":2027,"footer-top-speakers-en":2028},{"limit":4,"offset":5,"topics":6,"total":64},10,0,[7,13,19,25,31,36,41,47,53,58],{"label":8,"n_speakers":9,"n_utterances":10,"n_videos":11,"slug":12},"National Security",26,2695,190,"seguranca-nacional",{"label":14,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":16,"n_videos":17,"slug":18},"Education",32,1685,229,"educacao",{"label":20,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":22,"n_videos":23,"slug":24},"Public Safety and Order",23,1580,244,"seguranca-publica-e-ordem",{"label":26,"n_speakers":27,"n_utterances":28,"n_videos":29,"slug":30},"Combating Impunity",33,1469,292,"combate-a-impunidade",{"label":32,"n_speakers":15,"n_utterances":33,"n_videos":34,"slug":35},"Monetary Policy",1448,303,"politica-monetaria",{"label":37,"n_speakers":21,"n_utterances":38,"n_videos":39,"slug":40},"Judiciary",846,149,"poder-judiciario",{"label":42,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":44,"n_videos":45,"slug":46},"Public Service",28,788,178,"servico-publico",{"label":48,"n_speakers":49,"n_utterances":50,"n_videos":51,"slug":52},"Public Health \u002F Public Safety",25,756,139,"saude-publica-seguranca-publica",{"label":54,"n_speakers":43,"n_utterances":55,"n_videos":56,"slug":57},"Social Policy",684,197,"politica-social",{"label":59,"n_speakers":60,"n_utterances":61,"n_videos":62,"slug":63},"Fiscal Reform",22,671,134,"reforma-fiscal",625,{"falas":66,"lang":2015,"meta":2016},[67,76,83,89,94,101,106,112,118,125,131,136,143,148,154,160,166,173,179,185,191,198,204,209,214,220,226,231,236,242,248,254,260,265,270,275,281,286,291,297,303,308,314,320,326,332,338,344,350,355,361,367,372,378,384,390,396,402,408,414,420,426,432,438,444,450,456,462,468,474,480,486,492,498,504,510,516,522,528,534,540,546,552,558,564,570,576,582,588,594,600,606,612,618,624,630,636,642,648,654,660,666,672,678,684,690,696,702,708,714,720,726,732,738,744,750,755,761,767,773,779,785,791,797,803,809,815,821,827,833,839,845,851,857,863,868,874,880,886,892,897,903,909,915,921,927,933,939,945,951,956,962,968,974,980,985,991,997,1003,1009,1015,1021,1027,1033,1039,1045,1051,1057,1063,1069,1075,1081,1087,1093,1099,1105,1111,1117,1123,1128,1134,1140,1146,1152,1158,1164,1170,1176,1182,1188,1194,1199,1205,1211,1217,1223,1229,1235,1240,1246,1252,1258,1264,1270,1276,1282,1288,1294,1300,1306,1312,1318,1324,1329,1335,1341,1347,1353,1359,1365,1371,1377,1383,1389,1395,1401,1407,1413,1419,1425,1430,1436,1442,1448,1454,1460,1466,1472,1478,1484,1490,1496,1502,1508,1514,1519,1525,1531,1537,1543,1549,1555,1561,1567,1573,1579,1585,1591,1597,1603,1609,1615,1621,1627,1633,1639,1645,1651,1657,1663,1669,1675,1681,1687,1693,1699,1705,1711,1717,1723,1729,1735,1741,1747,1753,1759,1765,1771,1777,1783,1789,1795,1801,1806,1812,1818,1824,1830,1836,1842,1848,1854,1860,1866,1871,1877,1883,1889,1895,1901,1907,1913,1919,1925,1931,1937,1943,1949,1955,1961,1967,1973,1979,1985,1991,1997,2003,2009],{"idx":5,"utterance_id":68,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":71,"start_s":72,"end_s":73,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},"67306","Fernando Haddad","fernando-haddad","Today with journalist and USP professor Eugênio Gutt, former president of Rádio Brasa, current columnist for Estadão, author, among other works, of O Estado de Narciso and A Forma Bruta dos Protestos, both books published by Companhia das Letras.",9.74,25.52,40,false,{"idx":77,"utterance_id":78,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":79,"start_s":80,"end_s":81,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},1,"67307","Good evening, Eugênio.",26.18,26.82,3,{"idx":84,"utterance_id":85,"speaker_name":86,"text":87,"start_s":88,"end_s":43,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},2,"67308","Desconhecido","Good evening, Fernando.",27.12,{"idx":82,"utterance_id":90,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":91,"start_s":92,"end_s":93,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},"67309","What is the big difference between working for a privately owned company... and working for a public company, serving as a journalist in both?",28.8,40.24,{"idx":95,"utterance_id":96,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":97,"start_s":98,"end_s":99,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},4,"67310","What's the main difference?",40.98,42.52,5,{"idx":100,"utterance_id":102,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":103,"start_s":104,"end_s":105,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},"67311","If there is a difference.",43.78,44.68,{"idx":107,"utterance_id":108,"speaker_name":86,"text":109,"start_s":110,"end_s":111,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},6,"67312","That's an extremely complicated question, because at Rádio Brás I was a journalist, but I did not see myself as exercising the function of a journalist.",44.92,55.94,{"idx":113,"utterance_id":114,"speaker_name":86,"text":115,"start_s":116,"end_s":117,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},7,"67313","I was the company's president; I was an executive.",56.06,59.06,{"idx":119,"utterance_id":120,"speaker_name":86,"text":121,"start_s":122,"end_s":123,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},8,"67314","Therefore, I did not... perform the duties of an editor or a journalist in the newsrooms.",59.72,65.84,12,{"idx":126,"utterance_id":127,"speaker_name":86,"text":128,"start_s":129,"end_s":130,"word_count":74,"indexable":75},9,"67315","We had a very complex plan developed at ENAP, which is the National School of Public Administration, and we had specific plans, missions, for each program, for each station, and we had teams and journalists and editors.",66.24,88.88,{"idx":4,"utterance_id":132,"speaker_name":86,"text":133,"start_s":134,"end_s":135,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},"67316","charged with carrying out the journalistic functions.",89.88,92.98,{"idx":137,"utterance_id":138,"speaker_name":86,"text":139,"start_s":140,"end_s":141,"word_count":142,"indexable":75},11,"67317","I not only did not get involved in those functions—I did not do editing, I did not set the agenda, I did not dictate the agenda—but I also prevented people outside those functions, including from the government, from trying to interfere with those agendas.",93.22,111.22,34,{"idx":124,"utterance_id":144,"speaker_name":86,"text":145,"start_s":146,"end_s":147,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},"67318","And, in part, I was successful.",111.78,114.16,{"idx":149,"utterance_id":150,"speaker_name":86,"text":151,"start_s":152,"end_s":153,"word_count":60,"indexable":75},13,"67319","As an executive or as the company's president, I learned a lot, I repeat, it was a very good period of my life.",116.08,125.16,{"idx":155,"utterance_id":156,"speaker_name":86,"text":157,"start_s":158,"end_s":159,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},14,"67320","I liked it, I took pleasure in that work, it fulfilled me, I felt I was applying the knowledge I had accumulated over my life.",125.32,134.62,{"idx":161,"utterance_id":162,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":163,"start_s":164,"end_s":165,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},15,"67321","What do you expect from a journalist in those two positions?",136.56,139.82,{"idx":167,"utterance_id":168,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":169,"start_s":170,"end_s":171,"word_count":172,"indexable":75},16,"67322","When you teach and someone asks you, look, is a journalist a journalist everywhere, or does he have to take certain precautions when he is in a public company that may be different—not saying better or worse—from when he works in a private company?",140.08,157.56,48,{"idx":174,"utterance_id":175,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":176,"start_s":177,"end_s":178,"word_count":15,"indexable":75},17,"67323","Does the journalist's role, as such, from the point of view of the principles he must observe—the guidelines, the conduct—differ; does it change between the two?",158.42,174.04,{"idx":180,"utterance_id":181,"speaker_name":86,"text":182,"start_s":183,"end_s":184,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},18,"67324","Is there a change between commercial newsrooms, among them, and in the government as well?",174.82,181.48,{"idx":186,"utterance_id":187,"speaker_name":86,"text":188,"start_s":189,"end_s":190,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},19,"67325","This is very confusing in Brazil and I'll quickly explain why.",182.06,187.66,{"idx":192,"utterance_id":193,"speaker_name":86,"text":194,"start_s":195,"end_s":196,"word_count":197,"indexable":75},20,"67326","If we are, for example, in Europe... in a company like the BBC, which is a public company, the journalist there performs a journalistic function with independence guaranteed by all the statutes and by the constitution of that organization and also by a custom that dates back to the first half of the twentieth century.",188.36,211.26,51,{"idx":199,"utterance_id":200,"speaker_name":86,"text":201,"start_s":202,"end_s":203,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},21,"67327","It's an established culture.",211.96,213.42,{"idx":60,"utterance_id":205,"speaker_name":86,"text":206,"start_s":207,"end_s":208,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},"67328","Almost 100 years.",213.48,214.2,{"idx":21,"utterance_id":210,"speaker_name":86,"text":211,"start_s":212,"end_s":213,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},"67329","Yes, almost 100 years, an established culture of journalistic independence, editorial independence.",214.46,221.48,{"idx":215,"utterance_id":216,"speaker_name":86,"text":217,"start_s":218,"end_s":219,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},24,"67330","In Brazil, we don't have that kind of thing.",222.14,224.54,{"idx":49,"utterance_id":221,"speaker_name":86,"text":222,"start_s":223,"end_s":224,"word_count":225,"indexable":75},"67331","Going again abroad, if you take an example like the New York Times, or the magazine The Economist, or the BBC newsroom—the BBC newsrooms—the journalistic experience has a lot in common.",225.32,240.04,37,{"idx":9,"utterance_id":227,"speaker_name":86,"text":228,"start_s":229,"end_s":230,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},"67332","Very uncommon.",240.66,241.22,{"idx":232,"utterance_id":233,"speaker_name":86,"text":228,"start_s":234,"end_s":235,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},27,"67333",241.38,242.34,{"idx":43,"utterance_id":237,"speaker_name":86,"text":238,"start_s":239,"end_s":240,"word_count":241,"indexable":75},"67334","Of course there are distinct marks, but the profession of journalist, in these cases, unfolds in one organization or another, whether it is public or private, in the pattern I'm talking about—BBC, The Economist or New York Times.",243.66,259.7,36,{"idx":243,"utterance_id":244,"speaker_name":86,"text":245,"start_s":246,"end_s":247,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},29,"67335","it proceeds more or less along the same lines.",260.56,264.32,{"idx":249,"utterance_id":250,"speaker_name":86,"text":251,"start_s":252,"end_s":253,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},30,"67336","In Brazil, we do not have a truly independent public communications company.",264.84,270.94,{"idx":255,"utterance_id":256,"speaker_name":86,"text":257,"start_s":258,"end_s":259,"word_count":215,"indexable":75},31,"67337","So, they are very dependent, because they are not independent; they depend on the mood of those in power, the mood of those who hold positions in the executive.",271.26,282.4,{"idx":15,"utterance_id":261,"speaker_name":86,"text":262,"start_s":263,"end_s":264,"word_count":249,"indexable":75},"67338","If they are more cultured, if they are more prepared, more civilized, in the best sense of the word, we have an environment more conducive to more intelligent, more critical content.",282.54,294.18,{"idx":27,"utterance_id":266,"speaker_name":86,"text":267,"start_s":268,"end_s":269,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},"67339","If they are not, they run over, like a war tank, any principle that guides the profession of journalist.",294.26,303.88,{"idx":142,"utterance_id":271,"speaker_name":86,"text":272,"start_s":273,"end_s":274,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},"67340","On the other hand, in the private sector, we also do not have independent newsrooms.",304.2,308.94,{"idx":276,"utterance_id":277,"speaker_name":86,"text":278,"start_s":279,"end_s":280,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},35,"67341","There are very few newsrooms that we can say, in the Brazilian market, are technically independent.",309.02,315.98,{"idx":241,"utterance_id":282,"speaker_name":86,"text":283,"start_s":284,"end_s":285,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},"67342","Technically independent.",316.56,318.2,{"idx":225,"utterance_id":287,"speaker_name":86,"text":288,"start_s":289,"end_s":290,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},"67343","There are very few.",318.5,319.38,{"idx":292,"utterance_id":293,"speaker_name":86,"text":294,"start_s":295,"end_s":296,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},38,"67344","What is 'technically independent'?",319.54,321.12,{"idx":298,"utterance_id":299,"speaker_name":86,"text":300,"start_s":301,"end_s":302,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},39,"67345","They are companies that generate sufficient resources to finance an autonomous journalistic operation.",321.7,329.54,{"idx":74,"utterance_id":304,"speaker_name":86,"text":305,"start_s":306,"end_s":307,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},"67346","And companies run by people who are clear that by producing responsible, serious, attractive, interesting content, it generates more resources, generates more profit.",330.56,342.26,{"idx":309,"utterance_id":310,"speaker_name":86,"text":311,"start_s":312,"end_s":313,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},41,"67347","for their business and things go well.",342.58,344.14,{"idx":315,"utterance_id":316,"speaker_name":86,"text":317,"start_s":318,"end_s":319,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},42,"67348","We have few journalistic companies in Brazil that, for example, do not depend on a considerable slice of advertising revenue from public funds, from the government as an advertiser.",344.68,355.22,{"idx":321,"utterance_id":322,"speaker_name":86,"text":323,"start_s":324,"end_s":325,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},43,"67349","So what are they then?",355.54,356.64,{"idx":327,"utterance_id":328,"speaker_name":86,"text":329,"start_s":330,"end_s":331,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},44,"67350","Five, six newsrooms.",356.9,358.76,{"idx":333,"utterance_id":334,"speaker_name":86,"text":335,"start_s":336,"end_s":337,"word_count":192,"indexable":75},45,"67351","I am talking about Folha de São Paulo, I am talking about O Estado de São Paulo, O Globo, the newsrooms.",359.2,365.3,{"idx":339,"utterance_id":340,"speaker_name":86,"text":341,"start_s":342,"end_s":343,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},46,"67352","of large broadcasters, important regional newspapers, like Zero Hora in Rio Grande do Sul, but they are few.",365.78,373.66,{"idx":345,"utterance_id":346,"speaker_name":86,"text":347,"start_s":348,"end_s":349,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},47,"67353","The vast majority of Brazilian newsrooms depend, to begin with, on the State as an advertiser.",374.28,381.14,{"idx":172,"utterance_id":351,"speaker_name":86,"text":352,"start_s":353,"end_s":354,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},"67354","The State is one of the largest advertisers in Brazil.",381.66,383.94,{"idx":356,"utterance_id":357,"speaker_name":86,"text":358,"start_s":359,"end_s":360,"word_count":199,"indexable":75},49,"67355","So, if the mayor took offense and tells something to the governor, there's already a drop in revenue that month.",384.64,393.02,{"idx":362,"utterance_id":363,"speaker_name":86,"text":364,"start_s":365,"end_s":366,"word_count":192,"indexable":75},50,"67356","at that small radio station, that small newspaper, and the person can't pay salaries at the end of the month.",393.42,399.34,{"idx":197,"utterance_id":368,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":369,"start_s":370,"end_s":371,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},"67357","I think it's completely natural that the owner of a media outlet has his ideas.",400.08,405.02,{"idx":373,"utterance_id":374,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":375,"start_s":376,"end_s":377,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},52,"67358","And it's for that reason that he expresses them, generally, in editorials.",405.96,410.46,{"idx":379,"utterance_id":380,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":381,"start_s":382,"end_s":383,"word_count":215,"indexable":75},53,"67359","He says there what he thinks about a certain fact, a certain proposal, a certain governmental action or of a company.",410.6,420.18,{"idx":385,"utterance_id":386,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":387,"start_s":388,"end_s":389,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},54,"67360","Anyway, he has a space.",420.7,422.3,{"idx":391,"utterance_id":392,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":393,"start_s":394,"end_s":395,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},55,"67361","to express the newspaper's opinion, therefore, of the newspaper's owners or its leadership.",423.48,428.8,{"idx":397,"utterance_id":398,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":399,"start_s":400,"end_s":401,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},56,"67362","But how much do you think that opinion in Brazil somehow ends up being reflected in the reporting?",429.64,438.1,{"idx":403,"utterance_id":404,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":405,"start_s":406,"end_s":407,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},57,"67363","That is, to what extent is there not yet, even in companies that have greater economic maturity, still no political maturity?",438.34,452.04,{"idx":409,"utterance_id":410,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":411,"start_s":412,"end_s":413,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},58,"67364","that is able to clearly respect that separation.",452.68,456.36,{"idx":415,"utterance_id":416,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":417,"start_s":418,"end_s":419,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},59,"67365","We think like that, but the facts are these.",457.46,460.36,{"idx":421,"utterance_id":422,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":423,"start_s":424,"end_s":425,"word_count":199,"indexable":75},60,"67366","And the facts were ascertained with full impartiality; the reader's right to know them in their entirety was respected.",461.04,471.4,{"idx":427,"utterance_id":428,"speaker_name":86,"text":429,"start_s":430,"end_s":431,"word_count":186,"indexable":75},61,"67367","What you are saying is possible to expect and possible to desire, and as a citizen it's even possible to demand.",471.54,479.16,{"idx":433,"utterance_id":434,"speaker_name":86,"text":435,"start_s":436,"end_s":437,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},62,"67368","I would make a few remarks.",480.06,481.46,{"idx":439,"utterance_id":440,"speaker_name":86,"text":441,"start_s":442,"end_s":443,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},63,"67369","The opinion published in a newspaper's editorial is not necessarily the owner's opinion.",481.9,486.92,{"idx":445,"utterance_id":446,"speaker_name":86,"text":447,"start_s":448,"end_s":449,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},64,"67370","That is difficult to explain.",487.62,489.86,{"idx":451,"utterance_id":452,"speaker_name":86,"text":453,"start_s":454,"end_s":455,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},65,"67371","The opinion published in a newspaper's editorial—let's think of Estadão, for example.",491.32,495.42,{"idx":457,"utterance_id":458,"speaker_name":86,"text":459,"start_s":460,"end_s":461,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},66,"67372","It is the opinion coming from a tradition of more than 150 years.",496.02,500.6,{"idx":463,"utterance_id":464,"speaker_name":86,"text":465,"start_s":466,"end_s":467,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},67,"67373","Estadão is from the second half of the nineteenth century.",500.78,505.02,{"idx":469,"utterance_id":470,"speaker_name":86,"text":471,"start_s":472,"end_s":473,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},68,"67374","That's a few decades, right?",506.16,508.24,{"idx":475,"utterance_id":476,"speaker_name":86,"text":477,"start_s":478,"end_s":479,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},69,"67375","More than a century.",508.28,508.92,{"idx":481,"utterance_id":482,"speaker_name":86,"text":483,"start_s":484,"end_s":485,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},70,"67376","Who is the owner of Estadão?",510.34,511.88,{"idx":487,"utterance_id":488,"speaker_name":86,"text":489,"start_s":490,"end_s":491,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},71,"67377","The owner of Estadão is a family.",512.08,513.5,{"idx":493,"utterance_id":494,"speaker_name":86,"text":495,"start_s":496,"end_s":497,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},72,"67378","They are many people.",515.64,516.98,{"idx":499,"utterance_id":500,"speaker_name":86,"text":501,"start_s":502,"end_s":503,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},73,"67379","The editorial desk responsible for the drafting of the editorials...",518.38,522.56,{"idx":505,"utterance_id":506,"speaker_name":86,"text":507,"start_s":508,"end_s":509,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},74,"67380","It's a collective.",523.14,523.84,{"idx":511,"utterance_id":512,"speaker_name":86,"text":513,"start_s":514,"end_s":515,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},75,"67381","It's a group with a coordination.",524.36,527,{"idx":517,"utterance_id":518,"speaker_name":86,"text":519,"start_s":520,"end_s":521,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},76,"67382","They don't consult the owner.",527.16,529.66,{"idx":523,"utterance_id":524,"speaker_name":86,"text":525,"start_s":526,"end_s":527,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},77,"67383","Who is the owner of The Economist?",530.04,531.8,{"idx":529,"utterance_id":530,"speaker_name":86,"text":531,"start_s":532,"end_s":533,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},78,"67384","People don't know; companies are the owners of The Economist.",532.74,535.8,{"idx":535,"utterance_id":536,"speaker_name":86,"text":537,"start_s":538,"end_s":539,"word_count":15,"indexable":75},79,"67385","But The Economist has a governance system that gives to the editor em Tifo, to the highest editorial authority within the magazine, a magazine in which all the articles are opinion pieces.",535.86,547.58,{"idx":541,"utterance_id":542,"speaker_name":86,"text":543,"start_s":544,"end_s":545,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},80,"67386","All the articles are opinion pieces.",547.98,549.4,{"idx":547,"utterance_id":548,"speaker_name":86,"text":549,"start_s":550,"end_s":551,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},81,"67387","It grants autonomy to that person, but that autonomy is not whatever a citizen's whim dictates.",549.78,555.72,{"idx":553,"utterance_id":554,"speaker_name":86,"text":555,"start_s":556,"end_s":557,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},82,"67388","It's also another secular tradition of defending a model of liberalism.",556.1,561.9,{"idx":559,"utterance_id":560,"speaker_name":86,"text":561,"start_s":562,"end_s":563,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},83,"67389","A liberalism that is very radical in defending liberalism in social customs as well.",562.92,570.14,{"idx":565,"utterance_id":566,"speaker_name":86,"text":567,"start_s":568,"end_s":569,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},84,"67390","In customs.",571.1,572.02,{"idx":571,"utterance_id":572,"speaker_name":86,"text":573,"start_s":574,"end_s":575,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},85,"67391","Which concerns the legalization of drugs, abortion, same-sex marriage.",573.26,578.5,{"idx":577,"utterance_id":578,"speaker_name":86,"text":579,"start_s":580,"end_s":581,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},86,"67392","And the editor decides, I would say at The Economist, with total autonomy.",579.28,585.18,{"idx":583,"utterance_id":584,"speaker_name":86,"text":585,"start_s":586,"end_s":587,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},87,"67393","But he has rules that come from the tradition and culture of that publication.",585.5,590.46,{"idx":589,"utterance_id":590,"speaker_name":86,"text":591,"start_s":592,"end_s":593,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},88,"67394","This is very important.",591.42,592.56,{"idx":595,"utterance_id":596,"speaker_name":86,"text":597,"start_s":598,"end_s":599,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},89,"67395","to understand that it's not the owner who gets there and starts saying what will be done.",592.62,597.1,{"idx":601,"utterance_id":602,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":603,"start_s":604,"end_s":605,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},90,"67396","But that applies to a family company, for example, like Rede Globo, it has three owners.",597.14,601.76,{"idx":607,"utterance_id":608,"speaker_name":86,"text":609,"start_s":610,"end_s":611,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},91,"67397","It's different, it's different.",601.92,603.52,{"idx":613,"utterance_id":614,"speaker_name":86,"text":615,"start_s":616,"end_s":617,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},92,"67398","So, how does it work?",603.58,604.48,{"idx":619,"utterance_id":620,"speaker_name":86,"text":621,"start_s":622,"end_s":623,"word_count":276,"indexable":75},93,"67399","The tradition at Globo, while Roberto Marinho was the commander, there are published, well-known records—I'm not saying anything that isn't public—there was direct interference by the owner, Roberto Marinho, in the coverage.",606.2,631.12,{"idx":625,"utterance_id":626,"speaker_name":86,"text":627,"start_s":628,"end_s":629,"word_count":255,"indexable":75},94,"67400","I like to recall a statement by Roberto Marinho, whom I consider one of the most talented communicators of the 20th century, perhaps the most brilliant in Brazil in the 20th century.",631.82,643.48,{"idx":631,"utterance_id":632,"speaker_name":86,"text":633,"start_s":634,"end_s":635,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},95,"67401","No personal criticism is intended against him here.",644.34,647.52,{"idx":637,"utterance_id":638,"speaker_name":86,"text":639,"start_s":640,"end_s":641,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},96,"67402","But he interfered and he assertively commanded what was going to be published or not.",647.84,656.8,{"idx":643,"utterance_id":644,"speaker_name":86,"text":645,"start_s":646,"end_s":647,"word_count":292,"indexable":75},97,"67403","And there is an interview of his published in Jornal da Tarde in which he says, in so many words, yes, we promoted Collor's election and we had reasons to expect that he would be better than he was, etc.",657.3,670.3,{"idx":649,"utterance_id":650,"speaker_name":86,"text":651,"start_s":652,"end_s":653,"word_count":373,"indexable":75},98,"67404","At the end of the 1920s, beginning of the 1930s, Roberto Marinho was about 25 years old, his father had already died, but he was not yet the highest authority at the paper, he was preparing for that, but he was decisive in engaging the paper in support of the Revolution of '30.",673.54,694.98,{"idx":655,"utterance_id":656,"speaker_name":86,"text":657,"start_s":658,"end_s":659,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},99,"67405","And he supported the Revolution of '30.",695.16,697.08,{"idx":661,"utterance_id":662,"speaker_name":86,"text":663,"start_s":664,"end_s":665,"word_count":241,"indexable":75},100,"67406","This is important to remember also because... Roberto Marinho is a man who comes from a tradition that runs through the entire 20th century in which there simply wasn't the idea of an independent, professional, objective press.",697.46,712.54,{"idx":667,"utterance_id":668,"speaker_name":86,"text":669,"start_s":670,"end_s":671,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},101,"67407","That was built later, over the course of the 20th century.",712.88,716.7,{"idx":673,"utterance_id":674,"speaker_name":86,"text":675,"start_s":676,"end_s":677,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},102,"67408","What is the milestone?",716.76,717.6,{"idx":679,"utterance_id":680,"speaker_name":86,"text":681,"start_s":682,"end_s":683,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},103,"67409","Can you...",717.64,719.4,{"idx":685,"utterance_id":686,"speaker_name":86,"text":687,"start_s":688,"end_s":689,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},104,"67410","But just one thing, so we don't stay like this.",719.86,722.94,{"idx":691,"utterance_id":692,"speaker_name":86,"text":693,"start_s":694,"end_s":695,"word_count":174,"indexable":75},105,"67411","So, when we say that Roberto Marinho... ran journalism with a short rein and led it.",724.06,731.28,{"idx":697,"utterance_id":698,"speaker_name":86,"text":699,"start_s":700,"end_s":701,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},106,"67412","We are also talking about a tradition, a tradition that had those personalist elements of the proprietor.",732.18,740,{"idx":703,"utterance_id":704,"speaker_name":86,"text":705,"start_s":706,"end_s":707,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},107,"67413","The press was a political-party vehicle to do party politics.",740.26,745.2,{"idx":709,"utterance_id":710,"speaker_name":86,"text":711,"start_s":712,"end_s":713,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},108,"67414","The press was born like that.",745.64,746.76,{"idx":715,"utterance_id":716,"speaker_name":86,"text":717,"start_s":718,"end_s":719,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},109,"67415","And in Brazil professionalization perhaps begins with the newspaper O Estado de São Paulo.",747,751.76,{"idx":721,"utterance_id":722,"speaker_name":86,"text":723,"start_s":724,"end_s":725,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},110,"67416","The newspaper O Estado de São Paulo is a paper that was born republican.",752.52,756.06,{"idx":727,"utterance_id":728,"speaker_name":86,"text":729,"start_s":730,"end_s":731,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},111,"67417","but it migrates to the peoples.",756.82,758.4,{"idx":733,"utterance_id":734,"speaker_name":86,"text":735,"start_s":736,"end_s":737,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},112,"67418","Including Júlio Mesquita",758.5,761.34,{"idx":739,"utterance_id":740,"speaker_name":86,"text":741,"start_s":742,"end_s":743,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},113,"67419","was",762.18,762.4,{"idx":745,"utterance_id":746,"speaker_name":86,"text":747,"start_s":748,"end_s":749,"word_count":172,"indexable":75},114,"67420","a republican activist, he was elected deputy, but he gradually moved away from politics and devoted himself more and more to the newspaper, turning the newspaper into an environment in which there were monarchists and republicans and people sympathetic to communism, as happened with Euclides da Cunha, who wrote there,",762.46,781.94,{"idx":751,"utterance_id":752,"speaker_name":86,"text":753,"start_s":754,"end_s":754,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},115,"67421","and",782.76,{"idx":756,"utterance_id":757,"speaker_name":86,"text":758,"start_s":759,"end_s":760,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},116,"67422","is discovering... what market journalism can be.",783.9,787.7,{"idx":762,"utterance_id":763,"speaker_name":86,"text":764,"start_s":765,"end_s":766,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},117,"67423","At the end of the 1920s, Estadão was a newspaper relatively independent in relation to the Republican Party, relatively plural, professionalized and very rich, with high revenue.",787.92,801.86,{"idx":768,"utterance_id":769,"speaker_name":86,"text":770,"start_s":771,"end_s":772,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},118,"67424","The revenue of the newspaper Estado de São Paulo was larger than the revenue of 16 or 17 of the Brazilian states at the time.",802.58,811.38,{"idx":774,"utterance_id":775,"speaker_name":86,"text":776,"start_s":777,"end_s":778,"word_count":49,"indexable":75},119,"67425","It was crazy; he was a very rich and very powerful man, doing journalism, for that time, professional, plural, with a very strong and independent opinion.",812.02,823.16,{"idx":780,"utterance_id":781,"speaker_name":86,"text":782,"start_s":783,"end_s":784,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},120,"67426","And, at that time, he directed the editorials.",823.4,825.84,{"idx":786,"utterance_id":787,"speaker_name":86,"text":788,"start_s":789,"end_s":790,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},121,"67427","Over time, Estadão separated things.",826.8,829.3,{"idx":792,"utterance_id":793,"speaker_name":86,"text":794,"start_s":795,"end_s":796,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},122,"67428","The control of the editorials is one thing and the control of the reporting is another direction.",829.38,834.12,{"idx":798,"utterance_id":799,"speaker_name":86,"text":800,"start_s":801,"end_s":802,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},123,"67429","The newspaper split the two directions.",834.3,836.04,{"idx":804,"utterance_id":805,"speaker_name":86,"text":806,"start_s":807,"end_s":808,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},124,"67430","Now, the editorials influence the newsroom, and quite a lot.",836.4,841.1,{"idx":810,"utterance_id":811,"speaker_name":86,"text":812,"start_s":813,"end_s":814,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},125,"67431","They influence; they shouldn't influence, but they do.",841.96,845.02,{"idx":816,"utterance_id":817,"speaker_name":86,"text":818,"start_s":819,"end_s":820,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},126,"67432","Why?",845.08,845.38,{"idx":822,"utterance_id":823,"speaker_name":86,"text":824,"start_s":825,"end_s":826,"word_count":43,"indexable":75},127,"67433","Also because a young reporter reads what the editorial is saying, wants to look good, whatever, he is, unknowingly, influenced by it.",845.74,855.42,{"idx":828,"utterance_id":829,"speaker_name":86,"text":830,"start_s":831,"end_s":832,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},128,"67434","This is not good, but it happens.",855.56,857.7,{"idx":834,"utterance_id":835,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":836,"start_s":837,"end_s":838,"word_count":225,"indexable":75},129,"67435","Economic regulation, for example, as exists in some U.S. states or in some European countries, that the same family should not be the owner in a locality of the radio station, the highest-circulation newspaper and the TV station with the largest audience.",859.12,875.7,{"idx":840,"utterance_id":841,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":842,"start_s":843,"end_s":844,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},130,"67436","Does that amount to censorship?",876.88,879.34,{"idx":846,"utterance_id":847,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":848,"start_s":849,"end_s":850,"word_count":298,"indexable":75},131,"67437","Can you imagine a form of regulation that, to a journalist of your quality and to the quality of people trained at good journalism schools, would be understandable as actually defending democracy?",879.6,894.96,{"idx":852,"utterance_id":853,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":854,"start_s":855,"end_s":856,"word_count":215,"indexable":75},132,"67438","Or do you see a risk that regulation in Brazil could... lead to any development that is counterproductive, that is not beneficial to democracy.",895.24,907.96,{"idx":858,"utterance_id":859,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":860,"start_s":861,"end_s":862,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},133,"67439","How do you see this issue of regulation?",908.04,910.22,{"idx":62,"utterance_id":864,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":865,"start_s":866,"end_s":867,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},"67440","Always noting that I am talking about economic regulation, evidently.",910.6,913.76,{"idx":869,"utterance_id":870,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":871,"start_s":872,"end_s":873,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},135,"67441","Of preventing concentration in a few hands, of few media outlets.",914.14,918.82,{"idx":875,"utterance_id":876,"speaker_name":86,"text":877,"start_s":878,"end_s":879,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},136,"67442","No, I, Fernando, only see regulation as an antidote against censorship.",919.14,929.7,{"idx":881,"utterance_id":882,"speaker_name":86,"text":883,"start_s":884,"end_s":885,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},137,"67443","It's not that regulation entails censorship.",930.6,932.94,{"idx":887,"utterance_id":888,"speaker_name":86,"text":889,"start_s":890,"end_s":891,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},138,"67444","Democratic regulation inhibits censorship; it protects freedom, on the material level and on the formal level.",933.64,941.64,{"idx":51,"utterance_id":893,"speaker_name":86,"text":894,"start_s":895,"end_s":896,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},"67445","Well, look, regulation goes far beyond market regulation.",942.34,949.2,{"idx":898,"utterance_id":899,"speaker_name":86,"text":900,"start_s":901,"end_s":902,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},140,"67446","That needs to exist.",949.38,950.5,{"idx":904,"utterance_id":905,"speaker_name":86,"text":906,"start_s":907,"end_s":908,"word_count":391,"indexable":75},141,"67447","In the United States it exists because of the FCC—the Federal Communications Commission, which was established by Congress in the 1930s. Since then it has emerged with two principles, or to safeguard two values: one is plurality of voices and the other is market competition.",950.62,975.44,{"idx":910,"utterance_id":911,"speaker_name":86,"text":912,"start_s":913,"end_s":914,"word_count":186,"indexable":75},142,"67448","Therefore it is antitrust legislation; the FCC is a typical regulatory agency; it is an antitrust, anti-monopoly, anti-concentration regulation.",975.74,987.28,{"idx":916,"utterance_id":917,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":918,"start_s":919,"end_s":920,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},143,"67449","That is, liberal in the most classical sense.",988.42,990.66,{"idx":922,"utterance_id":923,"speaker_name":86,"text":924,"start_s":925,"end_s":926,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},144,"67450","Classical liberal, which harms no one.",990.7,994.48,{"idx":928,"utterance_id":929,"speaker_name":86,"text":930,"start_s":931,"end_s":932,"word_count":255,"indexable":75},145,"67451","By defending a market that is neither monopolistic nor oligopolistic, it defends competition and thus promotes public debate toward diversity and plurality.",995.54,1013.34,{"idx":934,"utterance_id":935,"speaker_name":86,"text":936,"start_s":937,"end_s":938,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},146,"67452","Those are the two values.",1013.52,1014.64,{"idx":940,"utterance_id":941,"speaker_name":86,"text":942,"start_s":943,"end_s":944,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},147,"67453","That's why it combats cross-ownership of the media.",1015.14,1019.02,{"idx":946,"utterance_id":947,"speaker_name":86,"text":948,"start_s":949,"end_s":950,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},148,"67454","What is cross-ownership of the media?",1019.06,1021.28,{"idx":39,"utterance_id":952,"speaker_name":86,"text":953,"start_s":954,"end_s":955,"word_count":186,"indexable":75},"67455","The guy owns the biggest newspaper, the biggest radio station, the biggest TV broadcaster, the largest...",1022.68,1030.04,{"idx":957,"utterance_id":958,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":959,"start_s":960,"end_s":961,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},150,"67456","Of a state, for example.",1030.38,1031.4,{"idx":963,"utterance_id":964,"speaker_name":86,"text":965,"start_s":966,"end_s":967,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},151,"67457","Of a city.",1032.08,1032.96,{"idx":969,"utterance_id":970,"speaker_name":86,"text":971,"start_s":972,"end_s":973,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},152,"67458","In a city.",1033.22,1033.86,{"idx":975,"utterance_id":976,"speaker_name":86,"text":977,"start_s":978,"end_s":979,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},153,"67459","Even in a city.",1034.04,1034.74,{"idx":981,"utterance_id":982,"speaker_name":86,"text":971,"start_s":983,"end_s":984,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},154,"67460",1034.78,1035.52,{"idx":986,"utterance_id":987,"speaker_name":86,"text":988,"start_s":989,"end_s":990,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},155,"67461","So, that clearly means that a single company can gather the conditions to control public debate in that place.",1035.98,1045.16,{"idx":992,"utterance_id":993,"speaker_name":86,"text":994,"start_s":995,"end_s":996,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},156,"67462","Let's also imagine a world without the internet.",1045.44,1047.68,{"idx":998,"utterance_id":999,"speaker_name":86,"text":1000,"start_s":1001,"end_s":1002,"word_count":232,"indexable":75},157,"67463","So, in that sense, American regulation, whose principles also appear in the British Ofcom and in French and German legislation, these principles are obvious; they are self-evident.",1048.02,1064.34,{"idx":1004,"utterance_id":1005,"speaker_name":86,"text":1006,"start_s":1007,"end_s":1008,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},158,"67464","Not only is it not censorship, it inhibits censorship.",1065.94,1069.82,{"idx":1010,"utterance_id":1011,"speaker_name":86,"text":1012,"start_s":1013,"end_s":1014,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},159,"67465","It inhibits state censorship and inhibits private censorship.",1070.3,1073.48,{"idx":1016,"utterance_id":1017,"speaker_name":86,"text":1018,"start_s":1019,"end_s":1020,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},160,"67466","Private censorship exists.",1073.56,1075,{"idx":1022,"utterance_id":1023,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1024,"start_s":1025,"end_s":1026,"word_count":333,"indexable":75},161,"67467","Why do you think, and I'm asking this question in very good faith, why do you think that when someone touches on this subject, the journalists themselves from the large conglomerates are the first to accuse the proponent of the debate of... doing the opposite of that.",1075.18,1096.32,{"idx":1028,"utterance_id":1029,"speaker_name":86,"text":1030,"start_s":1031,"end_s":1032,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},162,"67468","But there are reasons.",1096.4,1098.34,{"idx":1034,"utterance_id":1035,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1036,"start_s":1037,"end_s":1038,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},163,"67469","That's why I say the question is in good faith.",1100.18,1101.68,{"idx":1040,"utterance_id":1041,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1042,"start_s":1043,"end_s":1044,"word_count":292,"indexable":75},164,"67470","But I find it strange, when you talk about this, already the voices... What is the fear of saying, for example, let's take the United States legislation and discuss in the National Congress whether it applies in Brazil?",1102.28,1116.32,{"idx":1046,"utterance_id":1047,"speaker_name":86,"text":1048,"start_s":1049,"end_s":1050,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},165,"67471","Exactly, I don't understand that.",1116.36,1118.94,{"idx":1052,"utterance_id":1053,"speaker_name":86,"text":1054,"start_s":1055,"end_s":1056,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},166,"67472","What is it?",1119,1119.38,{"idx":1058,"utterance_id":1059,"speaker_name":86,"text":1060,"start_s":1061,"end_s":1062,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},167,"67473","Well, I sort of understand.",1119.84,1121.56,{"idx":1064,"utterance_id":1065,"speaker_name":86,"text":1066,"start_s":1067,"end_s":1068,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},168,"67474","But, well, it's difficult to look someone in the eye, sometimes a parliamentarian, sometimes an owner of a broadcaster, or sometimes a major journalist.",1122.12,1131.14,{"idx":1070,"utterance_id":1071,"speaker_name":86,"text":1072,"start_s":1073,"end_s":1074,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},169,"67475","It's not possible to understand why this debate hasn't happened.",1132.74,1137.52,{"idx":1076,"utterance_id":1077,"speaker_name":86,"text":1078,"start_s":1079,"end_s":1080,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},170,"67476","and it would benefit the merits, the great values, the top players of the market.",1137.94,1144.84,{"idx":1082,"utterance_id":1083,"speaker_name":86,"text":1084,"start_s":1085,"end_s":1086,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},171,"67477","And it would also benefit public broadcasting.",1145.42,1149.42,{"idx":1088,"utterance_id":1089,"speaker_name":86,"text":1090,"start_s":1091,"end_s":1092,"word_count":186,"indexable":75},172,"67478","It would benefit democracy, society, because regulation also takes care to reserve space for public broadcasters.",1150.14,1157.64,{"idx":1094,"utterance_id":1095,"speaker_name":86,"text":1096,"start_s":1097,"end_s":1098,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},173,"67479","Public broadcasters are essential in a democracy.",1158.14,1160.82,{"idx":1100,"utterance_id":1101,"speaker_name":86,"text":1102,"start_s":1103,"end_s":1104,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},174,"67480","It's not that they're, like, a desirable thing, that they're nice when... No, they are essential in a democracy.",1161.24,1167.9,{"idx":1106,"utterance_id":1107,"speaker_name":86,"text":1108,"start_s":1109,"end_s":1110,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},175,"67481","So much so that there are NPR radio stations in the United States; I love the American example.",1168.36,1173.9,{"idx":1112,"utterance_id":1113,"speaker_name":86,"text":1114,"start_s":1115,"end_s":1116,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},176,"67482","Because there's no doubt that the United States is, in fact, a capitalist country.",1174.52,1181.02,{"idx":1118,"utterance_id":1119,"speaker_name":86,"text":1120,"start_s":1121,"end_s":1122,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},177,"67483","Only some crazies out there think that Trump is a communist, but they'll show up any minute now.",1181.42,1185.76,{"idx":45,"utterance_id":1124,"speaker_name":86,"text":1125,"start_s":1126,"end_s":1127,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},"67484","He isn't. There's no risk of anyone thinking that when you talk about the American example you're referring to a socialist example.",1186,1193.86,{"idx":1129,"utterance_id":1130,"speaker_name":86,"text":1131,"start_s":1132,"end_s":1133,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},179,"67485","There NPR does journalism of high relevance; it's National Public Radio, which brings together about 900 stations.",1194.3,1202.82,{"idx":1135,"utterance_id":1136,"speaker_name":86,"text":1137,"start_s":1138,"end_s":1139,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},180,"67486","NPR's international journalism is of the highest level.",1203.66,1207.24,{"idx":1141,"utterance_id":1142,"speaker_name":86,"text":1143,"start_s":1144,"end_s":1145,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},181,"67487","Public broadcasters, which don't run advertising like commercial broadcasters do.",1208.5,1214.18,{"idx":1147,"utterance_id":1148,"speaker_name":86,"text":1149,"start_s":1150,"end_s":1151,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},182,"67488","PBS stations, which are the public broadcasting system, are also not commercial broadcasters; they're public.",1214.72,1225.28,{"idx":1153,"utterance_id":1154,"speaker_name":86,"text":1155,"start_s":1156,"end_s":1157,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},183,"67489","They have public funding and donations made by citizens; they produce excellent-quality journalism.",1225.76,1233.96,{"idx":1159,"utterance_id":1160,"speaker_name":86,"text":1161,"start_s":1162,"end_s":1163,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},184,"67490","So it's good to remember this, because this is also a product of regulation.",1234.4,1238.54,{"idx":1165,"utterance_id":1166,"speaker_name":86,"text":1167,"start_s":1168,"end_s":1169,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},185,"67491","Why did three major TV networks emerge in the United States?",1238.88,1241.36,{"idx":1171,"utterance_id":1172,"speaker_name":86,"text":1173,"start_s":1174,"end_s":1175,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},186,"67492","NBC, CBS and ABC?",1241.5,1243.4,{"idx":1177,"utterance_id":1178,"speaker_name":86,"text":1179,"start_s":1180,"end_s":1181,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},187,"67493","Because regulation determined it that way.",1243.98,1245.86,{"idx":1183,"utterance_id":1184,"speaker_name":86,"text":1185,"start_s":1186,"end_s":1187,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},188,"67494","It was important that the audience not be monopolized by any one.",1246.38,1249.46,{"idx":1189,"utterance_id":1190,"speaker_name":86,"text":1191,"start_s":1192,"end_s":1193,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},189,"67495","It was important that there be three competing networks.",1249.78,1253.52,{"idx":11,"utterance_id":1195,"speaker_name":86,"text":1196,"start_s":1197,"end_s":1198,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},"67496","That was the work of regulation, not the work of the market.",1253.82,1255.52,{"idx":1200,"utterance_id":1201,"speaker_name":86,"text":1202,"start_s":1203,"end_s":1204,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},191,"67497","In a way, the law shaped the market.",1255.58,1257.26,{"idx":1206,"utterance_id":1207,"speaker_name":86,"text":1208,"start_s":1209,"end_s":1210,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},192,"67498","The law induced or programmed the market.",1258.56,1264.16,{"idx":1212,"utterance_id":1213,"speaker_name":86,"text":1214,"start_s":1215,"end_s":1216,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},193,"67499","And that doesn't make the United States socialist, or mean it's censorship.",1264.6,1269.38,{"idx":1218,"utterance_id":1219,"speaker_name":86,"text":1220,"start_s":1221,"end_s":1222,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},194,"67500","On the contrary, censorship becomes much more difficult.",1269.9,1272.52,{"idx":1224,"utterance_id":1225,"speaker_name":86,"text":1226,"start_s":1227,"end_s":1228,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},195,"67501","Let's go to Argentina.",1274.28,1275.28,{"idx":1230,"utterance_id":1231,"speaker_name":86,"text":1232,"start_s":1233,"end_s":1234,"word_count":255,"indexable":75},196,"67502","Kirchner, the Kirchner government, began to talk about regulation and they adopted the strategy of regulating the sector when a spat arose between Clarim and the government.",1275.8,1289.66,{"idx":56,"utterance_id":1236,"speaker_name":86,"text":1237,"start_s":1238,"end_s":1239,"word_count":77,"indexable":75},"67503","Venezuela.",1291.5,1292.2,{"idx":1241,"utterance_id":1242,"speaker_name":86,"text":1243,"start_s":1244,"end_s":1245,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},198,"67504","You don't have to go far for Venezuela.",1292.64,1294.08,{"idx":1247,"utterance_id":1248,"speaker_name":86,"text":1249,"start_s":1250,"end_s":1251,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},199,"67505","Venezuelan legislation is against the market and paves the way for government interference.",1294.34,1301.46,{"idx":1253,"utterance_id":1254,"speaker_name":86,"text":1255,"start_s":1256,"end_s":1257,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},200,"67506","or of the party, or of organizations, in the public debate.",1301.92,1306.46,{"idx":1259,"utterance_id":1260,"speaker_name":86,"text":1261,"start_s":1262,"end_s":1263,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},201,"67507","The example is also terrible.",1306.78,1308.22,{"idx":1265,"utterance_id":1266,"speaker_name":86,"text":1267,"start_s":1268,"end_s":1269,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},202,"67508","Uruguay enacted good legislation.",1308.58,1310.38,{"idx":1271,"utterance_id":1272,"speaker_name":86,"text":1273,"start_s":1274,"end_s":1275,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},203,"67509","Uruguayan legislation is very interesting.",1311.28,1313.64,{"idx":1277,"utterance_id":1278,"speaker_name":86,"text":1279,"start_s":1280,"end_s":1281,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},204,"67510","Does Chile have one?",1313.7,1314.28,{"idx":1283,"utterance_id":1284,"speaker_name":86,"text":1285,"start_s":1286,"end_s":1287,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},205,"67511","Chile is different.",1315.14,1316.36,{"idx":1289,"utterance_id":1290,"speaker_name":86,"text":1291,"start_s":1292,"end_s":1293,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},206,"67512","Chile has a public TV station that survives only on advertising.",1316.58,1319.64,{"idx":1295,"utterance_id":1296,"speaker_name":86,"text":1297,"start_s":1298,"end_s":1299,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},207,"67513","The State doesn't put in a penny.",1319.82,1321.3,{"idx":1301,"utterance_id":1302,"speaker_name":86,"text":1303,"start_s":1304,"end_s":1305,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},208,"67514","I was there recently, at a seminar; they were airing The Ten Commandments.",1321.64,1325.66,{"idx":1307,"utterance_id":1308,"speaker_name":86,"text":1309,"start_s":1310,"end_s":1311,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},209,"67515","According to a friend of mine, a great journalist, The 20 Commandments, the Record soap opera.",1326.24,1330.48,{"idx":1313,"utterance_id":1314,"speaker_name":86,"text":1315,"start_s":1316,"end_s":1317,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},210,"67516","And now we're at The 30 Commandments.",1330.82,1332.52,{"idx":1319,"utterance_id":1320,"speaker_name":86,"text":1321,"start_s":1322,"end_s":1323,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},211,"67517","They were airing that; they broadcast market-driven attractions.",1333.2,1336.46,{"idx":1325,"utterance_id":1326,"speaker_name":86,"text":818,"start_s":1327,"end_s":1328,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},212,"67518",1336.54,1336.84,{"idx":1330,"utterance_id":1331,"speaker_name":86,"text":1332,"start_s":1333,"end_s":1334,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},213,"67519","It's a public TV because it's owned by the State, but to survive it needs advertising.",1337.06,1341.54,{"idx":1336,"utterance_id":1337,"speaker_name":86,"text":1338,"start_s":1339,"end_s":1340,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},214,"67520","What's the effect of that?",1341.74,1342.62,{"idx":1342,"utterance_id":1343,"speaker_name":86,"text":1344,"start_s":1345,"end_s":1346,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},215,"67521","It becomes like a commercial TV.",1342.8,1344.54,{"idx":1348,"utterance_id":1349,"speaker_name":86,"text":1350,"start_s":1351,"end_s":1352,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},216,"67522","Because it needs to answer to the market, it needs to have commercial breaks, it needs to...",1345.54,1350.52,{"idx":1354,"utterance_id":1355,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1356,"start_s":1357,"end_s":1358,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},217,"67523","It's not ownership that will change the nature of things.",1350.66,1353.34,{"idx":1360,"utterance_id":1361,"speaker_name":86,"text":1362,"start_s":1363,"end_s":1364,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},218,"67524","So, it's State-owned but operates like a commercial TV.",1353.42,1356.74,{"idx":1366,"utterance_id":1367,"speaker_name":86,"text":1368,"start_s":1369,"end_s":1370,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},219,"67525","It has the most common commercial TV programs, so it's even disconcerting.",1357.06,1361.58,{"idx":1372,"utterance_id":1373,"speaker_name":86,"text":1374,"start_s":1375,"end_s":1376,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},220,"67526","But Chile has legislation that I wouldn't point to as an example.",1362.26,1366.56,{"idx":1378,"utterance_id":1379,"speaker_name":86,"text":1380,"start_s":1381,"end_s":1382,"word_count":174,"indexable":75},221,"67527","And in Brazil... We had very unfortunate episodes under the Lula and Dilma governments, especially under the Lula government.",1366.7,1374.84,{"idx":1384,"utterance_id":1385,"speaker_name":86,"text":1386,"start_s":1387,"end_s":1388,"word_count":199,"indexable":75},222,"67528","Lula made statements saying that the press couldn't be a political party and such, and that there would be regulation.",1374.98,1382.2,{"idx":1390,"utterance_id":1391,"speaker_name":86,"text":1392,"start_s":1393,"end_s":1394,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},223,"67529","Well, one thing has nothing to do with the other.",1382.42,1384.26,{"idx":1396,"utterance_id":1397,"speaker_name":86,"text":1398,"start_s":1399,"end_s":1400,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},224,"67530","You can't brandish regulation to say I'm going to take revenge on you.",1384.3,1391.68,{"idx":1402,"utterance_id":1403,"speaker_name":86,"text":1404,"start_s":1405,"end_s":1406,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},225,"67531","If the press were great, impartial, which is even impossible.",1392.22,1397.18,{"idx":1408,"utterance_id":1409,"speaker_name":86,"text":1410,"start_s":1411,"end_s":1412,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},226,"67532","But if it were objective, great, a champion of independence, we would still need regulation.",1398.44,1405.2,{"idx":1414,"utterance_id":1415,"speaker_name":86,"text":1416,"start_s":1417,"end_s":1418,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},227,"67533","And if the press is terrible, slanders, publishes falsehoods, we would also need regulation.",1405.84,1411.52,{"idx":1420,"utterance_id":1421,"speaker_name":86,"text":1422,"start_s":1423,"end_s":1424,"word_count":192,"indexable":75},228,"67534","The behavior of the press has nothing to do with this need, which is structural to the market in a democratic society.",1412.08,1419.16,{"idx":17,"utterance_id":1426,"speaker_name":86,"text":1427,"start_s":1428,"end_s":1429,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},"67535","Regulation is necessary.",1419.58,1420.82,{"idx":1431,"utterance_id":1432,"speaker_name":86,"text":1433,"start_s":1434,"end_s":1435,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},230,"67536","It's not because it's good or bad.",1421.36,1422.7,{"idx":1437,"utterance_id":1438,"speaker_name":86,"text":1439,"start_s":1440,"end_s":1441,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},231,"67537","But Lula's speeches sometimes made that association.",1423.2,1426.28,{"idx":1443,"utterance_id":1444,"speaker_name":86,"text":1445,"start_s":1446,"end_s":1447,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},232,"67538","In that sense, I think people who reject regulation are, in general, misinformed.",1426.5,1432.84,{"idx":1449,"utterance_id":1450,"speaker_name":86,"text":1451,"start_s":1452,"end_s":1453,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},233,"67539","But in that sense, Lula encouraged that fear with certain speeches.",1433.22,1438.7,{"idx":1455,"utterance_id":1456,"speaker_name":86,"text":1457,"start_s":1458,"end_s":1459,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},234,"67540","And that was very bad.",1439.2,1440.28,{"idx":1461,"utterance_id":1462,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1463,"start_s":1464,"end_s":1465,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},235,"67541","What's going on in Brazil that things are so contained?",1440.98,1444.72,{"idx":1467,"utterance_id":1468,"speaker_name":86,"text":1469,"start_s":1470,"end_s":1471,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},236,"67542","Look, it's...",1445.98,1446.98,{"idx":1473,"utterance_id":1474,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1475,"start_s":1476,"end_s":1477,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},237,"67543","Maybe this bothers someone a bit who... You see?",1448.76,1452.72,{"idx":1479,"utterance_id":1480,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1481,"start_s":1482,"end_s":1483,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},238,"67544","You ask, why isn't there plurality?",1452.76,1454.92,{"idx":1485,"utterance_id":1486,"speaker_name":86,"text":1487,"start_s":1488,"end_s":1489,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},239,"67545","What's going on?",1457.4,1458.16,{"idx":1491,"utterance_id":1492,"speaker_name":86,"text":1493,"start_s":1494,"end_s":1495,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},240,"67546","There are few moments.",1458.26,1459.36,{"idx":1497,"utterance_id":1498,"speaker_name":86,"text":1499,"start_s":1500,"end_s":1501,"word_count":192,"indexable":75},241,"67547","If we take Globo, Folha and Estadão, there are moments when they have disparate, quite centrifugal inclinations.",1459.4,1470,{"idx":1503,"utterance_id":1504,"speaker_name":86,"text":1505,"start_s":1506,"end_s":1507,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},242,"67548","For example, Dilma's impeachment.",1470.88,1474.44,{"idx":1509,"utterance_id":1510,"speaker_name":86,"text":1511,"start_s":1512,"end_s":1513,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},243,"67549","Folha advocated the resignation of Dilma and Temer.",1475.44,1479.86,{"idx":23,"utterance_id":1515,"speaker_name":86,"text":1516,"start_s":1517,"end_s":1518,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},"67550","Estadão advocated something else and Globo advocated something different.",1481.1,1484.46,{"idx":1520,"utterance_id":1521,"speaker_name":86,"text":1522,"start_s":1523,"end_s":1524,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},245,"67551","And it happens at moments like that.",1485.02,1486.56,{"idx":1526,"utterance_id":1527,"speaker_name":86,"text":1528,"start_s":1529,"end_s":1530,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},246,"67552","But most of the time there's a kind of tuning.",1487.06,1491.64,{"idx":1532,"utterance_id":1533,"speaker_name":86,"text":1534,"start_s":1535,"end_s":1536,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},247,"67553","Alignment, like that.",1491.68,1492.76,{"idx":1538,"utterance_id":1539,"speaker_name":86,"text":1540,"start_s":1541,"end_s":1542,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},248,"67554","It's not an alignment because it's not contrived.",1493.14,1495.98,{"idx":1544,"utterance_id":1545,"speaker_name":86,"text":1546,"start_s":1547,"end_s":1548,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},249,"67555","They don't have a meeting where they... It's a process.",1496.22,1499.54,{"idx":1550,"utterance_id":1551,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1552,"start_s":1553,"end_s":1554,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},250,"67556","It's a process.",1499.58,1500.26,{"idx":1556,"utterance_id":1557,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1558,"start_s":1559,"end_s":1560,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},251,"67557","A process of coming closer, like that.",1500.98,1502.2,{"idx":1562,"utterance_id":1563,"speaker_name":86,"text":1564,"start_s":1565,"end_s":1566,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},252,"67558","It's as if the foundations of the three coincided.",1502.74,1507.84,{"idx":1568,"utterance_id":1569,"speaker_name":86,"text":1570,"start_s":1571,"end_s":1572,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},253,"67559","That effect really occurs, that we don't have the kind of diversity that would be desirable.",1510.14,1517.58,{"idx":1574,"utterance_id":1575,"speaker_name":86,"text":1576,"start_s":1577,"end_s":1578,"word_count":199,"indexable":75},254,"67560","The diversity of voices in Brazilian society does not translate into the diversity of voices in the press that really matters in Brazil.",1517.9,1528.2,{"idx":1580,"utterance_id":1581,"speaker_name":86,"text":1582,"start_s":1583,"end_s":1584,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},255,"67561","So, that's a problem.",1528.78,1530.58,{"idx":1586,"utterance_id":1587,"speaker_name":86,"text":1588,"start_s":1589,"end_s":1590,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},256,"67562","In part, this comes from that censorial mentality.",1530.88,1535.18,{"idx":1592,"utterance_id":1593,"speaker_name":86,"text":1594,"start_s":1595,"end_s":1596,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},257,"67563","Who says, by the way — the first time I read that in Brazil the press was born after censorship?",1536.06,1540.8,{"idx":1598,"utterance_id":1599,"speaker_name":86,"text":1600,"start_s":1601,"end_s":1602,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},258,"67564","It's a book by Professor Luiz Milanese, 'O que é Biblioteca'.",1540.88,1544.08,{"idx":1604,"utterance_id":1605,"speaker_name":86,"text":1606,"start_s":1607,"end_s":1608,"word_count":60,"indexable":75},259,"67565","And he reconstructs the arrival of the royal family, the three censorship offices that existed in Portugal come along and so does the royal press.",1544.48,1552,{"idx":1610,"utterance_id":1611,"speaker_name":86,"text":1612,"start_s":1613,"end_s":1614,"word_count":241,"indexable":75},260,"67566","But when the first newspaper published in Brazil comes out, in June 1808 — Gazeta do Rio de Janeiro, which was an official gazette — the censorial offices, or the royal censorship, were already operating there.",1552.54,1566.14,{"idx":1616,"utterance_id":1617,"speaker_name":86,"text":1618,"start_s":1619,"end_s":1620,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},261,"67567","It's very striking.",1567.56,1569.86,{"idx":1622,"utterance_id":1623,"speaker_name":86,"text":1624,"start_s":1625,"end_s":1626,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},262,"67568","It was already functioning.",1569.9,1572.28,{"idx":1628,"utterance_id":1629,"speaker_name":86,"text":1630,"start_s":1631,"end_s":1632,"word_count":167,"indexable":75},263,"67569","And the first independent newspaper of Brazil was published in London, which is the Correio Brasiliense.",1572.92,1577.46,{"idx":1634,"utterance_id":1635,"speaker_name":86,"text":1636,"start_s":1637,"end_s":1638,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},264,"67570","It was a monthly, a little booklet, made by hipólito José da Costa.",1577.52,1582.02,{"idx":1640,"utterance_id":1641,"speaker_name":86,"text":1642,"start_s":1643,"end_s":1644,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},265,"67571","But it entered Brazil by smuggling.",1582.08,1585.3,{"idx":1646,"utterance_id":1647,"speaker_name":86,"text":1648,"start_s":1649,"end_s":1650,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},266,"67572","It ran from 1808 to 1822.",1585.86,1589.1,{"idx":1652,"utterance_id":1653,"speaker_name":86,"text":1654,"start_s":1655,"end_s":1656,"word_count":174,"indexable":75},267,"67573","This origin of the Brazilian press... It also doesn't help, because in Brazil the State established the press.",1589.92,1597.58,{"idx":1658,"utterance_id":1659,"speaker_name":86,"text":1660,"start_s":1661,"end_s":1662,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},268,"67574","In Brazil the State created civil society.",1597.9,1600.72,{"idx":1664,"utterance_id":1665,"speaker_name":86,"text":1666,"start_s":1667,"end_s":1668,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},269,"67575","You were citing the example of the United States.",1600.9,1602.84,{"idx":1670,"utterance_id":1671,"speaker_name":86,"text":1672,"start_s":1673,"end_s":1674,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},270,"67576","In the United States the State emerged from the press.",1603.14,1606.58,{"idx":1676,"utterance_id":1677,"speaker_name":86,"text":1678,"start_s":1679,"end_s":1680,"word_count":186,"indexable":75},271,"67577","All the determinations of the American Federation, the ratification of the federative pact, are a product of texts published in newspapers.",1607.54,1621.22,{"idx":1682,"utterance_id":1683,"speaker_name":86,"text":1684,"start_s":1685,"end_s":1686,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},272,"67578","Which are the Federalist Papers, which today are the cornerstone of political thought in the United States, written by three great men who wrote under pseudonyms.",1621.74,1635.66,{"idx":1688,"utterance_id":1689,"speaker_name":86,"text":1690,"start_s":1691,"end_s":1692,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},273,"67579","Those texts were anonymous.",1635.94,1637.82,{"idx":1694,"utterance_id":1695,"speaker_name":86,"text":1696,"start_s":1697,"end_s":1698,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},274,"67580","They were published in the newspapers.",1638.46,1640.04,{"idx":1700,"utterance_id":1701,"speaker_name":86,"text":1702,"start_s":1703,"end_s":1704,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},275,"67581","And in the newspapers, through the newspapers, they convinced people who were politically active.",1640.4,1647.38,{"idx":1706,"utterance_id":1707,"speaker_name":86,"text":1708,"start_s":1709,"end_s":1710,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},276,"67582","and so it was ratified.",1647.7,1649.06,{"idx":1712,"utterance_id":1713,"speaker_name":86,"text":1714,"start_s":1715,"end_s":1716,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},277,"67583","The federative pact.",1649.34,1650.32,{"idx":1718,"utterance_id":1719,"speaker_name":86,"text":1720,"start_s":1721,"end_s":1722,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},278,"67584","The State was born from the press.",1650.66,1652.78,{"idx":1724,"utterance_id":1725,"speaker_name":86,"text":1726,"start_s":1727,"end_s":1728,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},279,"67585","Brazil is the opposite.",1653.1,1654.14,{"idx":1730,"utterance_id":1731,"speaker_name":86,"text":1732,"start_s":1733,"end_s":1734,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},280,"67586","So all of this needs to be taken into account.",1654.38,1656.18,{"idx":1736,"utterance_id":1737,"speaker_name":86,"text":1738,"start_s":1739,"end_s":1740,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},281,"67587","But there is one more fact that also needs to be taken into account.",1656.5,1659.3,{"idx":1742,"utterance_id":1743,"speaker_name":86,"text":1744,"start_s":1745,"end_s":1746,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},282,"67588","Which I would say is an unfortunate feature of the dissenting voices of our time.",1659.96,1666.86,{"idx":1748,"utterance_id":1749,"speaker_name":86,"text":1750,"start_s":1751,"end_s":1752,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},283,"67589","Under the dictatorship we had Pasquim, which is a phenomenon, it's a wonderful thing that it existed.",1667.14,1673.22,{"idx":1754,"utterance_id":1755,"speaker_name":86,"text":1756,"start_s":1757,"end_s":1758,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},284,"67590","Which is turning 50 years old now.",1673.76,1675.3,{"idx":1760,"utterance_id":1761,"speaker_name":86,"text":1762,"start_s":1763,"end_s":1764,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},285,"67591","Under the dictatorship, the alternative press fulfilled a very important role.",1678.14,1682.56,{"idx":1766,"utterance_id":1767,"speaker_name":86,"text":1768,"start_s":1769,"end_s":1770,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},286,"67592","Today we have little.",1683.1,1684.44,{"idx":1772,"utterance_id":1773,"speaker_name":86,"text":1774,"start_s":1775,"end_s":1776,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},287,"67593","And the little we have reproduces the worst vices of a dominant traditional press.",1684.92,1693.34,{"idx":1778,"utterance_id":1779,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1780,"start_s":1781,"end_s":1782,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},288,"67594","Leandro, let me ask you one last question.",1693.38,1695.8,{"idx":1784,"utterance_id":1785,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1786,"start_s":1787,"end_s":1788,"word_count":174,"indexable":75},289,"67595","Otávio Frias Filho, a few months before he passed away, published an article that struck me as courageous.",1697.24,1705.16,{"idx":1790,"utterance_id":1791,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1792,"start_s":1793,"end_s":1794,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},290,"67596","He already knew he was... ill, he was fighting for his life.",1705.96,1709.52,{"idx":1796,"utterance_id":1797,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1798,"start_s":1799,"end_s":1800,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},291,"67597","If I'm not mistaken, the title of the article — or at least the opening line —",1709.96,1713.6,{"idx":29,"utterance_id":1802,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1803,"start_s":1804,"end_s":1805,"word_count":4,"indexable":75},"67598","right on the first line, he said 'Journalism, a necessary evil.'",1713.94,1718.02,{"idx":1807,"utterance_id":1808,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1809,"start_s":1810,"end_s":1811,"word_count":225,"indexable":75},293,"67599","And in that article he recovers, in some way, arguments that range from Pulitzer himself to arguments of the Frankfurt School, Adorno and Horkheimer, speaking of the intrinsic limits of journalism, of its own limits, essential to journalism.",1719.4,1736.72,{"idx":1813,"utterance_id":1814,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1815,"start_s":1816,"end_s":1817,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},294,"67600","How true is that to you?",1738.68,1740.4,{"idx":1819,"utterance_id":1820,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1821,"start_s":1822,"end_s":1823,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},295,"67601","How much of that do you think is surmountable?",1740.46,1742.22,{"idx":1825,"utterance_id":1826,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1827,"start_s":1828,"end_s":1829,"word_count":107,"indexable":75},296,"67602","What is good journalism?",1744.1,1745.52,{"idx":1831,"utterance_id":1832,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1833,"start_s":1834,"end_s":1835,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},297,"67603","What is the limit of good journalism?",1746.78,1748.7,{"idx":1837,"utterance_id":1838,"speaker_name":69,"speaker_slug":70,"text":1839,"start_s":1840,"end_s":1841,"word_count":95,"indexable":75},298,"67604","How far does it go?",1748.76,1749.52,{"idx":1843,"utterance_id":1844,"speaker_name":86,"text":1845,"start_s":1846,"end_s":1847,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},299,"67605","Well, once again you're going to ask me a question that... I don't know how to get out of this one.",1749.8,1757.74,{"idx":1849,"utterance_id":1850,"speaker_name":86,"text":1851,"start_s":1852,"end_s":1853,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},300,"67606","Starting with Otávio, a brilliant figure whom I met, and you met as well.",1757.82,1764.14,{"idx":1855,"utterance_id":1856,"speaker_name":86,"text":1857,"start_s":1858,"end_s":1859,"word_count":199,"indexable":75},301,"67607","He knew how to... needle someone with great elegance, great intelligence, great irony, and he had, I think, a very keen view of journalism.",1766.82,1783.1,{"idx":1861,"utterance_id":1862,"speaker_name":86,"text":1863,"start_s":1864,"end_s":1865,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},302,"67608","He learned a lot about journalism, he knew how to teach journalism very well.",1783.64,1788.1,{"idx":34,"utterance_id":1867,"speaker_name":86,"text":1868,"start_s":1869,"end_s":1870,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},"67609","I organized a course in which Otávio gave a lecture; it was brilliant.",1788.14,1793.6,{"idx":1872,"utterance_id":1873,"speaker_name":86,"text":1874,"start_s":1875,"end_s":1876,"word_count":215,"indexable":75},304,"67610","The idea that journalism is a necessary evil is a somewhat simple idea and we cannot lose sight of it.",1795.5,1802.64,{"idx":1878,"utterance_id":1879,"speaker_name":86,"text":1880,"start_s":1881,"end_s":1882,"word_count":137,"indexable":75},305,"67611","Journalism does not do good, it does not help people.",1803.68,1809.52,{"idx":1884,"utterance_id":1885,"speaker_name":86,"text":1886,"start_s":1887,"end_s":1888,"word_count":21,"indexable":75},306,"67612","Journalism exists to show what doesn't work, in that sense, to show what subverted the legitimate expectations of the citizen, of society.",1810.1,1821.54,{"idx":1890,"utterance_id":1891,"speaker_name":86,"text":1892,"start_s":1893,"end_s":1894,"word_count":174,"indexable":75},307,"67613","In that sense... It exposes people unduly, it is unpleasant, it asks uncouth questions, it makes savage criticisms.",1822.22,1834.28,{"idx":1896,"utterance_id":1897,"speaker_name":86,"text":1898,"start_s":1899,"end_s":1900,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},308,"67614","But if we don't have that evil, democracy cannot balance itself, society cannot know the things that power wants to hide.",1835.68,1849.06,{"idx":1902,"utterance_id":1903,"speaker_name":86,"text":1904,"start_s":1905,"end_s":1906,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},309,"67615","Journalism only serves that purpose.",1849.18,1850.74,{"idx":1908,"utterance_id":1909,"speaker_name":86,"text":1910,"start_s":1911,"end_s":1912,"word_count":126,"indexable":75},310,"67616","to try to pierce what power wants to hide.",1851.2,1853.86,{"idx":1914,"utterance_id":1915,"speaker_name":86,"text":1916,"start_s":1917,"end_s":1918,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},311,"67617","Only that.",1854.42,1855.06,{"idx":1920,"utterance_id":1921,"speaker_name":86,"text":1922,"start_s":1923,"end_s":1924,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},312,"67618","So it is an evil and it is necessary.",1855.8,1858.36,{"idx":1926,"utterance_id":1927,"speaker_name":86,"text":1928,"start_s":1929,"end_s":1930,"word_count":180,"indexable":75},313,"67619","I think that this cannot be overcome, because the great journalist has two characteristics, which are two vices.",1859.06,1868.26,{"idx":1932,"utterance_id":1933,"speaker_name":86,"text":1934,"start_s":1935,"end_s":1936,"word_count":161,"indexable":75},314,"67620","One, they are an agent of a curiosity that is stronger than they are.",1869.32,1875.28,{"idx":1938,"utterance_id":1939,"speaker_name":86,"text":1940,"start_s":1941,"end_s":1942,"word_count":82,"indexable":75},315,"67621","They can't help it.",1875.32,1876.74,{"idx":1944,"utterance_id":1945,"speaker_name":86,"text":1946,"start_s":1947,"end_s":1948,"word_count":155,"indexable":75},316,"67622","The great journalist, when they see a good story pass by, they get agitated.",1877.38,1881.52,{"idx":1950,"utterance_id":1951,"speaker_name":86,"text":1952,"start_s":1953,"end_s":1954,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},317,"67623","It's like a straitjacket case.",1881.6,1883.08,{"idx":1956,"utterance_id":1957,"speaker_name":86,"text":1958,"start_s":1959,"end_s":1960,"word_count":100,"indexable":75},318,"67624","The person can't hold themselves.",1883.6,1884.96,{"idx":1962,"utterance_id":1963,"speaker_name":86,"text":1964,"start_s":1965,"end_s":1966,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},319,"67625","And the other thing that makes a great journalist is an essential indiscretion.",1885.64,1891.52,{"idx":1968,"utterance_id":1969,"speaker_name":86,"text":1970,"start_s":1971,"end_s":1972,"word_count":149,"indexable":75},320,"67626","The journalist loves to tell a story that nobody knew and will do anything to do so.",1892.44,1897.46,{"idx":1974,"utterance_id":1975,"speaker_name":86,"text":1976,"start_s":1977,"end_s":1978,"word_count":119,"indexable":75},321,"67627","It's their great pleasure, it's their fulfillment.",1897.72,1900.1,{"idx":1980,"utterance_id":1981,"speaker_name":86,"text":1982,"start_s":1983,"end_s":1984,"word_count":124,"indexable":75},322,"67628","Those are two bad things, but combined in a journalist, they produce great journalism.",1901.08,1906.46,{"idx":1986,"utterance_id":1987,"speaker_name":86,"text":1988,"start_s":1989,"end_s":1990,"word_count":60,"indexable":75},323,"67629","Just as sadism is bad, but in a surgeon who knows how to discipline it, it turns sadism into a way of saving lives.",1906.54,1915.52,{"idx":1992,"utterance_id":1993,"speaker_name":86,"text":1994,"start_s":1995,"end_s":1996,"word_count":174,"indexable":75},324,"67630","Because it's a person who likes to open another's body, to take the heart in their hand.",1915.76,1920,{"idx":1998,"utterance_id":1999,"speaker_name":86,"text":2000,"start_s":2001,"end_s":2002,"word_count":9,"indexable":75},325,"67631","That person is sadistic, but they discipline that for the sake of... So journalism is a necessary evil in that sense and will never be a good thing.",1920.16,1930.06,{"idx":2004,"utterance_id":2005,"speaker_name":86,"text":2006,"start_s":2007,"end_s":2008,"word_count":113,"indexable":75},326,"67632","but society is better with it.",1930.76,1932.6,{"idx":2010,"utterance_id":2011,"speaker_name":86,"text":2012,"start_s":2013,"end_s":2014,"word_count":84,"indexable":75},327,"67633","Eugênio, thank you.",1933.6,1949.3,"en",{"job_id":2017,"title":2018,"source_url":2019,"platform":2020,"content_type":2021,"published_at":2022,"duration_sec":2023,"n_classified":2024,"speakers":2025},"7f522a24-61fa-4021-a98e-34b4e574ed76","allTV - Painel Haddad (26\u002F08\u002F2019) - Eugênio Bucci","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002Fwatch?v=c5JdgHCL8Ts","youtube","video","2019-08-26T23:00:12Z",1949.31525,328,[2026],{"name":69,"slug":70,"n_falas":172},"https:\u002F\u002Fi.ytimg.com\u002Fvi\u002Fc5JdgHCL8Ts\u002Fhqdefault.jpg",{"limit":4,"offset":5,"speakers":2029,"total":225},[2030,2044,2057,2068,2074,2085,2096,2105,2112,2121],{"slug":2031,"name":2032,"party":2033,"role":2033,"state":2033,"n_speeches":2034,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2035,"photo_url":2039,"bio_short":2033,"wikidata_id":2040,"mandate_status":2041,"social_links":2042},"renan-santos","Renan Santos","",22525,[2036,2037,2038],"Abuse of Authority","Administrative and Labor Reform","Affirmative action","\u002Fprofiles\u002Frenan-santos\u002Fphoto.png","Q51882553","none",{"twitter":2043},"@RenanSantosMBL",{"slug":2045,"name":2046,"party":2033,"role":2033,"state":2047,"n_speeches":2048,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2049,"photo_url":2053,"bio_short":2033,"wikidata_id":2054,"mandate_status":2041,"social_links":2055},"romeu-zema","Romeu Zema","MG",12888,[2050,2051,2052],"Agriculture & Agribusiness","Amnesty and Jan 8 Characterization","Anti-Discrimination","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fromeu-zema\u002Fphoto.png","Q57092113",{"twitter":2056},"@RomeuZema",{"slug":2058,"name":2059,"party":2033,"role":2033,"state":2033,"n_speeches":2060,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2061,"bio_short":2033,"mandate_status":2041,"social_links":2065},"pablo-marcal","Pablo Marçal",12772,[2062,2063,2064],"Agricultural Policy","Business Environment","Campaign Financing",{"twitter":2066,"youtube":2067},"@pablomarcal","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002F@pablomarcall",{"slug":70,"name":69,"party":2033,"role":2033,"state":2069,"n_speeches":2070,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2071,"bio_short":2033,"wikidata_id":2072,"mandate_status":2041,"social_links":2073},"SP",12647,[2062,2050,2052],"Q3069485",{},{"slug":2075,"name":2076,"party":2033,"role":2033,"state":2077,"n_speeches":2078,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2079,"photo_url":2081,"bio_short":2033,"wikidata_id":2082,"mandate_status":2041,"social_links":2083},"ronaldo-caiado","Ronaldo Caiado","GO",12538,[2037,2038,2080],"Agribusiness & Regional Development","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fronaldo-caiado\u002Fphoto.png","Q10364348",{"twitter":2084},"@ronaldocaiado",{"slug":2086,"name":2087,"party":2033,"role":2088,"state":2069,"n_speeches":2089,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2090,"photo_url":2092,"bio_short":2033,"wikidata_id":2093,"mandate_status":2041,"social_links":2094},"tarcisio","Tarcisio","Governador",11298,[2091,2062,2050],"Age of Criminal Responsibility","\u002Fprofiles\u002Ftarcisio\u002Fphoto.png","Q60392579",{"twitter":2095},"tarcisiogdf",{"slug":2097,"name":2098,"party":2033,"role":2033,"state":2033,"n_speeches":2099,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2100,"photo_url":2102,"bio_short":2033,"wikidata_id":2103,"mandate_status":2041,"social_links":2104},"luis-inacio-lula-da-silva","Luis Inacio Lula da Silva",10531,[2062,2050,2101],"Benefits fraud & efficiency","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fluis-inacio-lula-da-silva\u002Fphoto.png","Q37181",{},{"slug":2106,"name":2107,"party":2033,"role":2033,"state":2033,"n_speeches":2108,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2109,"bio_short":2033,"mandate_status":2041,"social_links":2111},"augusto-cury","Augusto Cury",8912,[2080,2110,2062],"Agribusiness \u002F Environment",{},{"slug":2113,"name":2114,"party":2033,"role":2033,"state":2069,"n_speeches":2115,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2116,"photo_url":2117,"bio_short":2033,"wikidata_id":2118,"mandate_status":2041,"social_links":2119},"kim-kataguiri","Kim Kataguiri",8748,[2037,2091,2050],"\u002Fprofiles\u002Fkim-kataguiri\u002Fphoto.png","Q21715169",{"twitter":2120},"@KimKataguiri",{"slug":2122,"name":2123,"party":2033,"role":2033,"state":2124,"n_speeches":2125,"consistency_score":5,"top_topics":2126,"photo_url":2128,"bio_short":2033,"wikidata_id":2129,"mandate_status":2041,"social_links":2130},"flavio-bolsonaro","Flavio Bolsonaro","RJ",8066,[2062,2050,2127],"Anti-Fascism","\u002Fprofiles\u002Fflavio-bolsonaro\u002Fphoto.png","Q10283057",{"twitter":2131},"@FlavioBolsonaro"]