Video transcript
RODA VIVA | FERNANDO HADDAD | 31/08/2026
901 statements · 1 politicians · September 1, 2026 · 81 min
Statements by Fernando Haddad. 901 transcribed statements, with topic and stance on the ones the analysis classified. Topics: National Security, Combating Impunity, Public Management / Education, Public Health and Hospital Infrastructure.
Speakers
Playing now · 51:45
Fernando Haddad: "We did a... We sent a PEC to the National Congress, we sent a complementary law, a provisional measure and a bill."
Transcript
901 statementsFull transcript of the video. Statements the analysis classified carry topic and stance.
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Innovation that connects.
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Bradesco.
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Good evening.
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Roda Viva begins now, the interview program from TV Cultura on São Paulo's public TV.
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You can watch us throughout Brazil via our network of affiliates and in almost the whole world on the Cultura channel on YouTube.
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There are 34 days left until the first round of this year's elections.
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This August we opened a special slot for interviews with the main candidates for the government of the State of São Paulo.
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As per the draw held on the 7th, today we host the candidate of the PT (Workers' Party), Fernando Haddad.
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Fernando Haddad holds a law degree, a master's in Economics and a doctorate in Philosophy from USP, where he is a professor of Political Science.
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In public life, he was Minister of Education in the Lula and Dilma administrations and mayor of São Paulo.
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He ran for the presidency in 2018 and for the government of São Paulo in 2022.
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And in Lula's third term, he assumed the Ministry of Finance, a post he left to run again for the São Paulo governorship.
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And to interview candidate Fernando Haddad, we have with us Clarissa Oliveira, political analyst at CNN Brasil, Pedro Carvalho, coordinator for O Globo in São Paulo, Mônica Bergamo, columnist for Folha de São Paulo and Band News FM, Pedro Borges, reporter for Alma Preta, Thaís Bilenk, columnist for UOL, Ricardo Correia, political coordinator in São Paulo at Estadão.
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With us also are journalism students from Unesp, Metodista, Mackenzie and ESPN.
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And to translate the debates into drawings we have our cartoonist Eduardo Batistão.
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And you, from anywhere in the world, can send questions via WhatsApp using the QR Code that appears during the program.
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Good evening, candidate.
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Thank you for being here.
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Welcome to Roda Viva.
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Good evening, Ernesto.
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It's a great pleasure to be here with you.
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Very well.
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I'd like to start right away with one of your priorities in your... government program.
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Security, education and health.
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Okay, let's go to security.
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Basically, there are 180 prison facilities in the state of São Paulo, 230 thousand inmates, including the PCC.
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And what is known is that this criminal faction has great control over many of these prisons.
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And in the last 33 years, since the PCC emerged, the government of the State of São Paulo has been led by centrist governments and in the last four years by the right, and none of them managed to provide an answer.
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On the contrary, the PCC has only grown and today is present in the financial market, in the public administration, in short, it has already spread its tentacles.
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I would like to know, sir, you are a man of the left — what proposals do you have to solve this problem?
About: promote a comprehensive public security reform
Renato, I think our constitutional design is wrong.
About: approve constitutional amendments on public security
And that is why President Lula submitted a security PEC (constitutional amendment) so that the Presidency of the Republic would assume part of the responsibility for this, and there has been resistance from far-right governors, who see in it a loss of autonomy.
I see the opposite, I see a great opportunity.
About: establish a state security coordination office with seats for federal forces
I want to establish an anti-faction cabinet at my desk, in the governor's office, chaired by the governor.
About: establish a state security coordination office with seats for federal forces
With the presence of São Paulo's Civil, Military and Penitentiary Police, but also with the presence of the Federal Police and the Federal Revenue Service.
About: establish a state security coordination office with seats for federal forces
And the Public Prosecutor's Offices of São Paulo and the Federal Public Ministry will also have seats.
Why do I see this as the only way out?
About: conduct integrated operations between the Federal Police and the Federal Revenue Service to combat money laundering
I spearheaded, at the Federal Revenue Service — the agency linked to the Ministry of Finance — an operation called Carbono Oculto.
That operation taught Brazil a great deal.
About: conduct integrated operations between the Federal Police and the Federal Revenue Service to combat money laundering
Considered by experts the largest operation to combat organized crime in history.
- Against
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About: promote a comprehensive public security reform
But it wasn't necessary to change the Constitution for that, right?
But I'll get to that.
What is special about it?
About: strengthen cooperation among public security agencies
What is special about it is the cooperation.
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About: strengthen cooperation among public security agencies
Today cooperation is not the rule.
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About: strengthen cooperation among public security agencies
Cooperation is the exception.
About: strengthen cooperation among public security agencies
If we integrate the forces, if we organize the State to combat organized crime, organized crime cannot operate alongside us.
About: strengthen cooperation among public security agencies
But while we remain fragmented and engaged in a false dispute over protagonism, we will not get there.
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About: strengthen cooperation among public security agencies
Today crimes are no longer regional.
About: strengthen cooperation among public security agencies
One of the mistakes of the current governor here in São Paulo is that he still thinks with a small-minded perspective, as if the crime had happened only within the territory.
About: strengthen cooperation among public security agencies
He does not understand the PCC's interconnections outside São Paulo and in the world, as well.
About: strengthen international cooperation to combat organized crime
That is why the United States are already talking about the PCC, because it has international repercussions.
About: strengthen international cooperation to combat organized crime
Moreover, the cooperation has to be international.
About: strengthen international cooperation to combat organized crime
We are seeking that cooperation, including with the United States government.
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About: strengthen international cooperation to combat organized crime
The Federal Revenue Service has already signed recent agreements from that same perspective.
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About: classify criminal factions as terrorist organizations and increase penalties
The fact that they have declared the PCC and the Comando Vermelho as terrorist entities — are you in favor of that, then?
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About: classify criminal factions as terrorist organizations and increase penalties
That's a minor issue.
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About: classify criminal factions as terrorist organizations and increase penalties
What will you call them?
Mafia?
terrorist organization, faction.
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About: reduce homicides and combat organized crime
The important thing is how you will work the fight against them.
About: value state police with better pay and strengthen disciplinary control mechanisms
And here in São Paulo, first of all, we do not have a valued police force today.
We don't.
About: value state police with better pay and strengthen disciplinary control mechanisms
The promises made by Tarcísio to the civil and military police simply have not been fulfilled.
About: adopt state-of-the-art artificial intelligence for public security
Secondly, the technology is completely outdated.
About: adopt state-of-the-art artificial intelligence for public security
There is no artificial intelligence.
About: adopt state-of-the-art artificial intelligence for public security
The Muralha Paulista amounted to nothing; it couldn't even secure a contract.
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About: adopt state-of-the-art artificial intelligence for public security
In terms of technology assimilation, several states of Brazil have cutting-edge technology.
And you even have, in those everyday crimes — like cellphone theft, motorcycle theft, vehicle theft — organized crime behind it, because there is a chain of fencing and distribution of the proceeds, or resale of what is stolen, or even the export of stolen cellphones, which happens in São Paulo.
About: strengthen public security
So you have a demotivated workforce and you have low technology compared to organized crime and, frankly, Tarcísio has lost command of public security operations.
Look at what happened recently.
About: investigate and hold public officials accountable for crimes
Rape of a minor by military police, cargo theft by police, three police stations targeted for search and seizure requested by the MPF.
And you don't get any accountability from the leadership, from those who command this process.
About: establish a state security coordination office with seats for federal forces
That's why I want to call to the table the governor who will preside over this anti-faction cabinet.
About: establish a state security coordination office with seats for federal forces
There is no other solution.
About: establish a national pact for public security with increased personnel, integration, and social prevention policies
Either we make a serious federative pact, with technology and qualified and valued professionals, or we will continue for another 33 years in this impasse where we don't get anywhere.
They only thrive.
About: combat money laundering and recover diverted funds
And now even involved in money laundering that affected Faria Lima.
We are already talking about another level of organization of these mafias operating in Brazil.
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Minister, I'd like to make a brief parenthesis on this security issue.
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I think everyone here will want to delve deeper into this issue with you.
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But you said something there that worried me.
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You said that the fact the United States calls the organizations terrorists is a small detail, when we know it is not a small detail.
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The United States, the American State Department, issued in August a message saying that American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will never again be questioned.
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And they are showing they're not joking.
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They went into Venezuela, kidnapped the president, seized the oil reserves, killed the leader of Iran, have been bombing Iran for six months, are imposing a siege on Cuba that is causing hunger in Cuba.
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I'd like to ask you the following.
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First, whether you agree that labeling them as terrorists allows for an armed action in Brazil.
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Second, I want to know whether you think Brazil, as a State, has the capacity to resist
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to this American offensive that is taking place, including against Brazil?
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And how could that affect São Paulo?
It depends on the government, right?
A government... No, but I'm asking about the State.
No, but let me answer.
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I'll let you, I'll let you.
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But just to make my question clear.
It's perfectly clear.
Everything starts with the government.
A sell-out government.
What did Tarcísio propose?
Look, let's hand something over to Trump so he calms down.
What are you going to hand over to PIX?
The rare earths?
What are you going to hand over?
So this idea of putting on Trump's cap, of saying we'll hand something over — Flávio Bolsonaro and Eduardo Bolsonaro negotiated the tarifácio specifically against São Paulo, which is by far the state most affected by the tarifácio, far beyond the second-placed state.
It affected Brazil, but São Paulo in particular.
There isn't a single word from the current governor against this.
Nothing.
He said it's not his concern, incidentally.
This is not my concern.
As if the State of São Paulo, which is the most affected, were not his concern.
When you have a president who has international respect, as Lula does, you have containment.
It is evident that you have containment.
Lula is someone who can speak with whoever he wants, whenever he wants, including Trump.
He is not someone who has difficulty calling China, Russia, France, speaking with heads of state, with heads of government.
and acting jointly to restrain the impulse.
Because it's not just the army, the weapon; it's diplomacy.
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Diplomacy still has its role.
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But the president couldn't prevent it.
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About: classify criminal factions as terrorist organizations and increase penalties
Now, answering your question, what I said is the following: terrorism, for me, has an ideology behind it.
It's not a mafia, it's not a faction that is seeking money and infiltrating
into legitimate businesses to launder that money that is stolen from other areas.
Terrorism is another category that they invented in the United States, with support here from the extreme right, to confuse public opinion.
The fact is this: it's organized crime, it needs to be fought.
Period.
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About: reduce criminal impunity
The biggest problem we have in Brazil is impunity.
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About: increase crime clearance in São Paulo
Did you know that only 5% of crimes committed in São Paulo are solved?
The 2003 data, which is the latest from Sol da Paz, shows that only 31% of homicides were solved in the State of São Paulo.
That means that out of every three homicides, only one was solved.
So we are in a serious public security crisis here in the State.
Serious.
And I am talking about people involved in criminal actions ranging from rape to cargo theft, from extortion to kidnapping.
Serious matters.
The death of... protected witnesses.
The death of prosecutors who in the past attacked the PCC.
Today you have a prosecutor like Lico Ogaquia who can't leave his house without three armored cars escorting him.
We are on this path here in São Paulo.
And you have a delicate situation in the State, a State that is hamstrung, that is... not managing to deliver what it promised nor having the space to deliver what it promised.
And public security, running this way, is turning the feeling of insecurity into the daily life of the people of São Paulo.
And this is not just the capital and the metropolitan region.
If you go to the countryside, you also hear complaints.
I was speaking with... an agribusiness farmer who had four tractors stolen in a single day.
Four tractors.
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About: reduce theft of agricultural machinery and implements
The theft of machines and equipment in the countryside reached 70% of the country's total in the State of São Paulo.
I had another meeting here in São Paulo with businesspeople about cargo theft of medicines because of their price.
These are high-cost medicines.
It's making life more expensive in Brazil because people have to factor it into the price.
Insecurity generates a cost for Brazil and it is high.
And sometimes there's not even insurance.
About: ensure public transparency of security data audited by civil society
So we are in a situation here in São Paulo where either the governor takes responsibility upon himself and reports transparently, audited by civil society — thank God we have good organizations that can audit the numbers — and comes clean with society and faces this head-on, or we will continue, governments come and go.
Even with Tarcísio and that far-right rhetoric, what happened?
The indicators worsened.
There are crimes against women, starting with the most serious, which is the 'filme de Ciclo'.
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But in PT state governments things are not much better, right?
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For example, in Bahia the rates are very high; the police are among those that kill the most.
Because of that, lethality here is also breaking records.
Really?
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About: reduce lethality in police actions
80% higher lethality.
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It hasn't reached Bahia's levels yet.
But that's why I began my answer to Ernesto by saying... that we have a problem of an institutional nature that needs to be resolved with cooperation.
About: approve constitutional amendments on public security
So, this action by the extreme right against the security PEC, which precisely envisaged the definitive partnership, which is the unified public security system — what specialists hope for today — is the beginning of everything.
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About: approve a law to confront criminal factions
And not passing an anti-faction law.
whose rapporteur is a candidate for the Senate, here weakening the Federal Police.
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Minister...
About: strengthen the Federal Police
Almost all of Tarcísio's Secretary of Security's reports were intended to weaken the Federal Police, even taking money away from the Federal Police.
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Minister, many of the points you are making depend on that connection with the federal government.
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You say, ah, the governor needs to take responsibility to solve the problem.
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But you yourself present as a central proposal in your plan the idea of this cooperation among various levels.
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And I would like to press a bit on Mônica's point regarding this issue of classification as terrorism.
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Because when you bring ideas that depend on a federal instance and you take a position regarding a classification as terrorist by another country, or even if that is done here in Brazil, none of that falls within the remit of the governor of São Paulo.
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What will in fact... be done by your administration, should you be elected, to combat, for example, the infiltration of organized crime within the public apparatus itself?
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Because we have a commander of the Military Police suspected of involvement with the PCC and we also have a PT city councilor likewise under suspicion.
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So, it's in many places.
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It's everywhere.
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What is your administration going to do?
Cláudio, first, let's not compare, okay?
Commander of the Military Police... Brazil is living under a false symmetry.
We often put very different things on the same scale.
Just changing the subject, but to refer to this false symmetry, we have a presidential candidate who cannot explain the rachadinha, cannot explain the money laundering at the chocolate shop, cannot explain the price of the mansion he bought in Lago Sul, cannot explain the tribute he paid to a militiaman.
who was killed in an operation by the Military Police of Bahia.
He cannot explain the ties to the militia in Rio de Janeiro.
He cannot explain anything.
He cannot explain the visits he made to Vorcaro, of Banco Master.
And we are putting this guy forward as a candidate for President of the Republic and comparing him with a person who doesn't lift a finger to favor anyone.
and orders everyone investigated.
So we are running the risk in Brazil of continuing to make these false comparisons.
Let's call things by their name.
If there's a councilor from A, B or C, investigate, punish, arrest.
No negotiations.
It's over.
We never lifted a finger to favor anyone.
The other thing is to remove the commander of the Military Police and announce that he was removed
for relevant services rendered.
The two things are very different.
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But, Minister, we also have bus companies that were subject to intervention because there are problems in contracts that go back to past administrations as well.
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What I'm saying is, there's everything from the councilor to the commander of the P.
I'm just not wanting to make a false symmetry.
I'm talking about a presidential candidate.
I'm not talking about his son, I'm talking about him.
So let's not place such different things on the same level.
You're talking about the commander of the Military Police.
You're not talking about... There are 50 thousand councilors in Brazil.
There is only one commander of the Military Police of São Paulo.
And he is chosen by the governor; he does not have a mandate.
Chosen by the governor.
So, let's begin... Let's make the appropriate distinctions so as not to confuse apples and oranges.
About: approve constitutional amendments on public security
Now, regarding what you're talking about, what I think... Here's the thing: I will support the PEC on public security.
About: strengthen cooperation among public security agencies
I believe that federative cooperation is the way to overcome our problem.
About: approve constitutional amendments on public security
I believe in a unified public security system.
About: strengthen the Federal Police
I believe in the Federal Police; I think it must be strengthened.
About: create a permanent integration office among Federal Police, Civil Police, Military Police and Penal Police
The fact that I grant a seat in the governor's office to a superintendent of the Federal Police in São Paulo — it's obvious that they can refuse.
But I would like to know why they would refuse if I invite them.
Me, as state governor.
About: create a permanent integration office among Federal Police, Civil Police, Military Police and Penal Police
I'll go to the president and say, I would like the superintendent of the Federal Police in São Paulo to have a seat in my office.
About: create an integrated task force among COAF, Receita Federal, PF and PRF
Because I want to know whether there is an exchange of information, whether the intelligence from here and there are cooperating, whether COAF is providing transaction data, whether the Revenue Service has indications of illegalities being committed during inspections.
And what answer will I receive?
No?
About: promote interinstitutional cooperation to combat organized crime
If I want to chair a command to attack organized crime?
About: promote interinstitutional cooperation to combat organized crime
Well, at the very least, we will create a great embarrassment, because I will be asking for an effective and efficient participation in a body that I intend to chair, and I doubt I will hear no as an answer.
What does the Federal Police lose?
About: promote interinstitutional cooperation to combat organized crime
by saying, look, take part in a meeting with the governor.
About: promote interinstitutional cooperation to combat organized crime
You, as superintendent of São Paulo, see what the state's needs are to combat crime.
About: promote interinstitutional cooperation to combat organized crime
Instead of us fighting for protagonism... Let's focus on what is necessary.
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About: promote interinstitutional cooperation to combat organized crime
And, again, Operation Carbono Oculto happened.
About: promote interinstitutional cooperation to combat organized crime
But it cannot be an exception, as it is today.
About: promote interinstitutional cooperation to combat organized crime
It has to be the rule.
About: promote interinstitutional cooperation to combat organized crime
We have to work together.
Moreover, there are crimes that fall under different jurisdictions.
One is within the federal remit, the other within the state remit.
And how do you go about combating them?
There is the crime de bete, which is a state crime.
Or it is federal.
And then, how do you join efforts in order to dismantle?
the gangs that use Beto to launder money, for example.
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Now he's a candidate.
About: establish a state security coordination office with seats for federal forces
So, if there is not this understanding, and if we keep saying 'this is mine, this is yours,' pushing it from one to the other, that's why our Constitution has an entire chapter on education, another chapter on social security, which includes health, assistance, pensions, another chapter on sport, on culture — it does not have a chapter on public security.
That is not normal.
About: establish a state security coordination office with seats for federal forces
So we need to take an institutional step.
About: have the governor assume direct responsibility for state public security
Now, it needs the governor's command, because I am in favor of the governor being the authority responsible for security, as he is today.
About: integrate security forces across the Union, states, and institutions
But that he have reinforcement, both from the mayors, because today the Civil Guard can do, according to the Supreme Federal Tribunal, some type of work involving public security, but also from the federal government, which has very qualified agencies.
About: use the Federal Revenue Service to support security agencies in investigating and fighting crime
I know the Revenue Service very well.
And I tell you, the Revenue Service is an extraordinary asset.
It is not a security agency.
The Revenue Service is not. It is a supervisory agency.
But the support it can provide to security agencies to combat crime — I am convinced, from three years at the Ministry of Finance, that we can do speculative work.
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This infiltration of organized crime into the police, if I cite some cases, there are many others.
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About: link police internal affairs divisions to the Public Security Secretariat
And in your government program in 2020, you had a proposal to detach the internal affairs offices from the police leaderships, linking them to the Secretariat of Public Security, to prevent investigations from sometimes remaining inside the police battalion itself.
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About: link police internal affairs divisions to the Public Security Secretariat
In this year's program, it's a program that has a centrality in public security but a bit more streamlined than last year's; it does not have that proposal.
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About: link police internal affairs divisions to the Public Security Secretariat
I would like to know whether you intend to do that or have changed your mind in some way.
About: link police internal affairs divisions to the Public Security Secretariat
Look, I... I think that idea is a good idea.
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About: establish a state security coordination office with seats for federal forces
There was a more recent debate about the nature of this anti-faction office and we arrived at this format, this consensus.
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About: strengthen comptroller offices with their own career paths and autonomy
But I believe one of the things that doesn't work in the State is the State's general comptroller's office.
It doesn't even have its own career/service.
About: strengthen comptroller offices with their own career paths and autonomy
When I set up the municipal general comptroller's office here in São Paulo, I created a dedicated career path for the comptroller.
About: strengthen comptroller offices with their own career paths and autonomy
In three months, they dismantled the ISS mafia.
Everyone remembers that.
In three months of work, we called in the Public Prosecutor's Office, we exposed the situation.
In October of that same year, we were already executing search and seizure, with everything, and we removed the bad professionals.
We have incredible State careers, tax auditors, both at the federal and municipal levels.
About: strengthen comptroller and corregedoria offices and guarantee autonomy for internal investigations
Look at the State Treasury Department.
What is happening with the State Treasury Department?
Look at the agencies, several secretariats with corruption cases.
And you don't have a strong comptroller's office.
You don't have a strong internal affairs office.
You don't give people the autonomy to do their work.
And it's a false illusion to imagine that you are protecting the corporation.
You are not protecting the corporation.
This is the beginning of destroying the corporation.
When you don't have internal control mechanisms.
There is the Public Prosecutor's Office, which is external.
But if you don't have internal control mechanisms, you won't be able to carry out the cleansing of the public apparatus, to eliminate those elements that erode the ethical standard of conduct of a career as important as, for example, the military police, which is a major corporation.
About: reformulate the public security policy of the State of São Paulo
Now, if you let these elements act and don't take the necessary measures, before long, what will happen to São Paulo?
We already have examples here in Brazil.
of a complete loss of governance over public security.
Are we going to let that happen in São Paulo?
So we have to put the brakes on and straighten things out quickly in the state of São Paulo, because things are not going well.
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We'll take a short break, because Roda Viva will return shortly with Fernando Haddad.
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Be right back.
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Okay, we're back with the PT candidate for governor of the state of São Paulo, Fernando Haddad, candidate.
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About: reduce waiting times for consultations, tests and surgeries in the SUS
We have a question from the audience: Eduardo Fraçato, from São Paulo, the capital, says the following: Brazilians face long queues for consultations, exams and surgeries, in addition to a lack of doctors and medicines in many regions.
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What is your concrete proposal to reduce these queues and improve SUS care in the state of São Paulo?
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About: reduce waiting times for consultations, tests and surgeries in the SUS
Well, first of all, we inherited a severe post-pandemic health crisis that affected the entire world.
Many procedures were postponed.
Both consultations, exams, and surgeries.
What measure did we take in the federal government?
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About: increase funding for SUS
We reinstated the health funding floor.
That represents an additional 100 billion per year for health.
We distributed these funds according to SUS rules.
It's not about party, nothing like that.
It's a SUS rule.
We distributed these resources across the country.
An additional 100 billion.
It's not 100 billion, it's 100 billion more.
President Lula ordered... to restore the health funding floor that Bolsonaro had cut.
The queues progressed well in Brazil — rather, not just well, I'd say better across the whole country.
The CRI was below the national average.
So we have a queue management problem, of course, in the SUS.
About: implement a zero-wait system in SUS for immediate care
First because the regulation system, the CROSS, is outdated.
The queue doesn't have intelligent management.
You get on the consultation queue, you leave the consultation queue, go to the exam queue, leave the exam queue, go to surgery.
All this can take two years before you complete your treatment.
Today the Ministry of Health organized — there are specialists here — a new modality, which São Paulo has not adopted, it should be said, which is a kind of comprehensive care.
You contract the treatment for the person, you contract a package for the person.
You don't do a piecemeal approach.
that keeps pushing you from one queue to another.
About: expand outpatient services such as day hospitals to reduce hospitalizations
Second, you need new structures in the State.
Here in São Paulo I created the Day Hospital, for example, for outpatient surgeries, to avoid hospitalizing a person who can recover at home, because outpatient surgery solves their problem.
So you have several procedures through which you organize the queue better.
About: digitize and integrate health systems and implement private-sector standard technology in SUS
We do not currently have a control panel for available beds in the State.
You don't have a control panel.
Imagine having to pick up the phone today — as if we were still in the landline age here in São Paulo — for some procedures.
Pick up the phone to find out where there is a vacancy.
SAMU is not integrated to know where to take patients.
You lose time.
Sometimes a patient has a more serious problem than another, you respect chronological order and you lose the patient because they needed emergency care.
About: use artificial intelligence to prioritize care in SUS
In Piauí, they set up an intelligence system that reduced deaths from heart attacks by 26%, with intelligent queue management.
The Farmácia Popular is a success, to continue the answer.
We moved from a medication where you paid 10% — now you pay nothing.
About: implement Mobile Farmácia Popular and home delivery of medicines
And I will implement here in São Paulo, furthermore, the Mobile Farmácia Popular.
There are many people who cannot keep going to pick it up; sometimes there's a queue to pick it up.
We will create a distribution system for home delivery.
We will implement the Mobile Farmácia Popular, which will deliver to a group of people who have various delays in receiving, including high-cost medication.
So things need to be organized more or less across the board.
About: expand telemedicine and telecare programs in health services
Today you have, within digital health, several procedures that also speed things up.
Desconhecido
How long does this take?
About: expand public health network by increasing hospital beds
Look, I think it's not... Look, there must be investment in the SUS, you will have to... There is still a lack of beds.
Beds that were closed during the pandemic were reopened, but there is still a need.
If there are day hospitals here, the federal government is financing a lot of BS and many UPAs in the state of São Paulo.
I visited the Sorocaba region recently; there we are finishing three UPAs, three UBSs, financed by the federal government.
But I think the management overhaul of the queue happens in the first year.
Desconhecido
New units.
Desconhecido
It's an option; there are more than 100 public hospitals in the state of São Paulo.
Desconhecido
Half are in the hands of social organizations, the other half is direct administration.
Desconhecido
Do you intend to increase that number, sir?
About: expand and strengthen the public health network
The government program foresees some new units.
I am here with Deputy Emílio de Souza, who made the government plan and identified the areas where it will need to expand.
Beds.
About: create a central purchasing unit for the Santas Casas
But another thing I want to do is, for example, the Santas Casas, which are very important in the state of São Paulo — I proposed to them in Brasília, saying, look, let's set up a purchasing center.
You buy in a very fragmented way.
If you have purchasing power, you will be able to negotiate prices.
as I did with the university hospitals of the federal universities.
Prices fell by 40% to 60%.
Desconhecido
Can this be done at the state level?
It must be done, because they pay high prices for what they buy, because it's an individual Santa Casa making purchases.
If you have all of them, or half of them, in a purchasing pool, you bring down the price of supplies.
About: strengthen the Santas Casas financially through centralized procurement and lines of credit
Another thing is the renegotiation of the Santas Casas' debt.
I am planning here to create a development bank.
within the BNDES modules, but to serve a different type of clientele that BNDES does not serve.
About: prepare São Paulo for reindustrialization through tax reform and an end to the tax war
One axis of action is the reindustrialization of the State.
With tax reform and the end of the fiscal war, São Paulo can prepare to reindustrialize.
Without tax reform, forget it, but it's been approved and will come into force on January 1st of next year.
- Neutral
About: reform the tax system
So we have the conditions.
About: facilitate swapping expensive debt for cheap debt for health institutions
The other thing is to finance this type of debt swap, for example.
A Santa Casa can swap an expensive debt for a cheap one, but the State needs to play a coordinating role in that.
Desconhecido
Pedro has a question, right?
Desconhecido
Thank you, sir.
Desconhecido
Picking up a bit from what Mônica brought up in the first block, the PT has never governed São Paulo, but it governs other states in the country.
Desconhecido
Since 2007 it has governed the state of Bahia, which is noted for the police, perhaps the most violent police in Brazil.
Desconhecido
Why should the voter of São Paulo expect a less violent police force if you become governor, and to ask whether you think body cameras will resolve — be able to resolve — the entire problem of police lethality that we have here in São Paulo?
About: strengthen internal affairs and internal oversight of the police
Not completely, but it will help a lot.
I think the camera will help a lot.
I believe an effective control office and an effective internal affairs department will go a long way.
About: strengthen internal control mechanisms and dialogue with the corporations
I think we must improve internal mechanisms.
I think you have to instill confidence in the corporation that you want to change the service for the better.
I am outraged by this lack of initiative in talking to the troops.
In fact, you should know that there was a very serious disorganization of the chain of command in São Paulo.
The current government, through a series of somewhat crony criteria, ended up retiring very serious people from the Military Police.
who were in active service and had the knowledge to effect a cultural change.
And they were retired because of that crony appointment that Tarcísio's secretary made in the Military Police, which caused great embarrassment for everyone.
I think there are colonels who even told me that it will take time for you to recover that corporate outlook.
with a well-structured chain of command.
But I believe that with dialogue, I think we can make a lot of progress on that.
And show everyone the following: we have a force that can function very well.
About: remove compromised members from police forces
And if that costs the removal of one or another professional who is not following the minimum rules of civility, that is for the good of the force.
It will not harm the force; it will do the force good.
About: value and professionalize police forces (Federal, Military and Civil)
So I think there is work to be done to value public security professionals.
I'll tell you the truth.
You said, you're a left-wing guy.
I'm a guy who maybe thinks in a circle, a stereotype that people sometimes make about what a right-wing person is and what a left-wing person is.
There are people who are right-wing and are not in favor of heavy-handedness.
The guy has a slightly different view.
Just like me, I have a view of the police officer.
which is the same as the one I have of other public service professionals.
I don't make distinctions.
I think that a good technical staff in health, in education and in security is essential for public services to function.
And these three services have to work for the good of the community.
So, I cannot understand those who promote a hierarchy.
As if one category were being disfavored in favor of another.
I don't see it that way.
I can't see it that way.
About: create a permanent dialogue forum between government and public security and prison staff
I want to sit down with the Military Police, with the Civil Police, just as I sit with any other professional category.
Do you have interlocutors within the force?
We do.
Look, that changes, Ernesto, with... First of all.
You removing the bogeyman.
You win an election, the first thing you do is sit with people and break the ice.
There are many stereotypes, much prejudice, many things that need to be overcome through dialogue.
About: prioritize negotiation and dialogue in public administration
Now, I went through MEC; I made agreements with all the categories as minister.
Not always without frictions.
Often you have no choice.
- Neutral
About: ensure responsible fiscal management and transparency in state public accounts
And we are in a situation, I want to say here, the fiscal situation of the State of São Paulo is very delicate; it's the worst in 30 years.
And I want to make a comment about a remark by Tarcísio today.
I simply reproduced official data from the Finance Secretariat of the Treasury, which were the subject of a report in the newspaper Folha de São Paulo.
I reproduced them in a statement.
I said, look, what was a budget surplus turned into a deficit, official data.
What was a primary surplus... fell by two-thirds.
The 22-billion cash reserve became, the free cash became 5 billion.
And this government's investment was smaller than the previous government's.
Odd, a newspaper article with data from the Treasury Secretariat.
What is the reaction?
Instead of saying, no, we will improve, we will fix it.
No, this is misinformation, this is intellectual dishonesty.
How is it intellectual dishonesty with official data?
The State of São Paulo, its finances today... are in the worst situation since the 1990s.
Since the 1990s.
About: audit and review contracts and agreements with the private sector to free up budget space
We will have to scrutinize the contracts signed by this administration.
We will have to free up budgetary space.
We will have to review agreements that were made with the private sector.
Desconhecido
Is raising taxes an option?
He already raised them.
He already raised taxes.
About: audit and review contracts and agreements with the private sector to free up budget space
I think the way forward here is the revision of contracts.
We have to really go through the contracts to review them.
to open up budgetary space for investment and for the recovery of public service.
Desconhecido
Minister, I would like to hear your assessment on the issue of bets.
Desconhecido
Brazil is today experiencing a serious crisis of various types of mental disorders and also an unprecedented indebtedness crisis, caused and driven by gambling addiction.
Desconhecido
The sector says that in 2025 there was already growth and that for 2026 the projection is an even greater increase in the amount of money wagered by Brazilians, driven by advertising during the World Cup, sports betting.
Desconhecido
President Lula has already said that he is in favor of banning bets.
Desconhecido
It was President Lula's own government, with you at the Treasury, that regulated, regularized the situation after a law approved during the Temer government, even though the entire Bolsonaro government passed...
More or less that.
Let's clarify.
Desconhecido
But my objective question is: are you in favor of banning bets after this experience so far?
I am.
About: prohibit commercial sports betting
I am, but I would like to give the history of what happened.
- Neutral
About: report on the legislative process that legalized sports betting
At the eleventh hour of the Temer government, in November or December of Temer's last year in office, it was legalized.
Bets were legalized.
That law that legalized Bets gave two years to the following government, which was already Bolsonaro, who was elected.
Bolsonaro was already elected on that occasion.
About: regulate and tax online betting
He could have acted on that as president-elect.
He did nothing.
- Neutral
About: regulate and oversee games and betting
Temer's law gave two years, extendable by another two, for the regulation of the sector.
About: regulate and tax online betting
So that it would pay taxes, be transparent, so that advertising... would not be harmful to Brazilians' health or finances, the Bolsonaro government went four years without doing absolutely anything.
Nothing.
Really nothing.
About: regulate and tax online betting
There was no oversight, no regulation, no decree, they did nothing.
What happened during the Bolsonaro government?
It generated an ecosystem.
- Neutral
About: increase transparency about links between betting companies and media/clubs
This ecosystem today sustains the media, I'm sorry to tell you this, the media, the football clubs, and it has also gotten involved in politics.
- Neutral
About: investigate and sanction conflicts of interest involving parliamentarians and gambling
There are several parliamentarians involved with the Bets after the legalization.
What we did is the following: in the face of resistance, first of all because the extent of it was not known.
When we took office, we had no idea what it was, because nobody had done anything.
About: exempt bets from taxes
We decided as follows: they would be tax-exempt.
About: regulate and tax online betting
You pay taxes, I pay taxes, the Bets did not pay taxes.
About: regulate and tax online betting
We said, well, if it's a legal activity, let's regulate how it contributes like any other company.
And that's when the shock came.
About: regulate and tax online betting
The size that this reached in those four years of Bolsonarism, which did absolutely nothing.
- Neutral
About: regulate and oversee games and betting
And the shock was the volume of resources involved in the Bets.
- Neutral
About: assess economic impact and jobs generated by online betting
It doesn't generate employment, because it's all digital; the number of jobs created is minimal, except indirectly.
- Neutral
About: increase transparency about advertising payments to media and clubs
I'm talking about football clubs, media outlets, which are effectively receiving advertising funds.
This advertising is not something they themselves produce; they use the appropriate channels.
About: regulate and oversee games and betting
We approved tough laws regarding irregular betting operators.
About: submit the issue of online betting to public consultation
Now, the moment has arrived for Brazilians, the Brazilian people, in light of this, to be able to judge what is best for the country.
Because now they know what is happening.
About: implement protection mechanisms for gambling addiction (self-exclusion)
We created a series of mechanisms at the Ministry of Health, from the self-exclusion button, which, once a person presses it, they cannot go back; they will stay out of gambling platforms for six months or a year.
About: implement health programs to treat gambling addiction
up to training health personnel for the correct approach to a person who may be developing substance dependence.
About: implement health programs to treat gambling addiction
There is also a questionnaire within SUS Digital, where you take a self-test to find out if you need support.
About: implement health programs to treat gambling addiction
If you find out you do, you can self-exclude or seek professional help.
About: implement health programs to treat gambling addiction
The Ministry of Health is taking that measure.
- Ambiguous
About: submit the issue of online betting to public consultation
But honestly, I'm a bit skeptical.
About: submit the issue of online betting to public consultation
After four years without any regulation, I think we created a problem that should be submitted to public opinion.
About: submit the issue of online betting to public consultation
We should dialog with public opinion about the advisability of maintaining this ecosystem.
Desconhecido
Now, there are many interests... Public opinion in opinion polls, for example, is largely opposed, but at the same time largely involved, right?
Desconhecido
They already place bets and see damage to their family...
I haven't seen recent research on a ban on virtual gambling.
I haven't seen recent research.
About: discuss online betting policy during the elections
But I think a government... First, it has to be discussed during the election what to do with this ecosystem.
It has to be discussed in the election.
About: open accounts and financial documents for judicial and Public Ministry audit
But after the election... I am in favor of this kind of consultation, of eventually having a dialogue with society, involving Congress, holding expert seminars, having health professionals say what's happening, banks opening up data on what's happening with people's finances, which are being compromised by this.
We could be talking about 40 or 50 — there are even estimates of over 50 billion reais that remain in betting houses per year.
That is not a small amount.
It's a percentage of Brazilian GDP.
It can reach 0.5% of Brazilian GDP.
It's a lot, a lot of money.
About: regulate and tax online betting
So today, knowing this because I got my hands on the problem to understand it — something Bolsonaro didn't do — we looked into it and today we know the scale is large.
- Against
About: maintain the online betting ecosystem
Personally, I don't think it's worth it.
- Against
About: maintain the online betting ecosystem
I think it's a sector that really doesn't contribute anything to the Brazilian economy, to entertainment, or to people's wellbeing.
- For
Desconhecido
About: prohibit online betting
How do you now go about ending it?
That's what I told you, right?
About: regulate and oversee games and betting
After four years of complete neglect by the Bolsonaro government, we opened the box to see what was inside.
And then it grew even more.
And now we have a serious problem.
About: submit controversial policies to popular decision/consultation
Now, it's nothing the Brazilian people can't decide.
I mean, the National Congress has to represent the will of the population.
As much as interests are intertwined, it's an interest that is intertwined at the upper levels of society, in society's coverage.
The person on the factory floor is being harmed by an ecosystem whose contribution to the country I don't see.
- Against
About: maintain the online betting ecosystem
I don't see any advantage.
Desconhecido
Pedro Carvalho, I need to ask you a question, sir.
Desconhecido
Good evening, Minister.
Desconhecido
On the economic front, because it's not just families — bettors on betting platforms are also facing high levels of indebtedness.
Desconhecido
The government's own debt has been at the center of debates; it has now reached 82% of GDP.
Desconhecido
Your successor at the Ministry of Finance, Dario Durigan, has made statements suggesting that there is some need to reduce public spending in a possible next term.
Desconhecido
But President Lula, in the interview with Jornal Nacional, said the phrase, 'I am not worried about public debt.'
Desconhecido
Is that your view as well?
Desconhecido
Are you worried about public debt?
- Neutral
About: control public debt and reduce interest rates
Look, compared with many countries, we are at a level that is not... Now, the problem is the dynamics of the debt.
- Neutral
About: control public debt and reduce interest rates
In my opinion, the debt dynamics are worrying.
Why?
Because interest rates are around 14% while inflation is already below 4.5%.
- Neutral
About: control public debt and reduce interest rates
When you have a real interest rate of almost 10%, or say 8% above inflation, no primary surplus can keep up with the debt dynamics.
The math doesn't add up.
About: control public debt and reduce interest rates
So you effectively need to take measures.
About: send the budget to the National Congress for the next government
The first measure was taken today, if you want to know, which was the budget submitted by the Lula government for the next government.
Compare the budgets — and it's very useful to compare the last year of President Lula's term, who sent today the budget for the next government (which could be his), and the budget Bolsonaro sent to the National Congress on August 31, not knowing whether he would be president or not, for the next government, which could have been his.
The budget Bolsonaro sent for 2023 had a deficit of 60 billion reais.
Explicitly, not counting the default on precatórios and the Bolsa Família that he increased and did not include in the budget.
These are figures that can be verified, the numbers I'm giving, apart from the governors' defaults.
I'm talking about three unavoidable expenditures.
- Neutral
About: ensure fiscal responsibility and payment of precatórios
The precatórios, the projected deficit of 60 billion, plus the Bolsa Família of 50 billion.
What did President Lula send for next year?
A budget?
With a surplus.
See?
That in itself will already have an important impact on the market.
So the market, I think, there is a dispute over the narrative, you know, about whether this government delivered a better result or not.
Obviously the opposition will say no.
Compare them — they are two clear budgets: one for 2027, another for 2023.
Compare them, ask any specialist.
Remember that Bolsonaro had committed expenses up to 2026 that had no funding source, as was the case with Fundeb, for example.
So what I want to tell you is this: there is no way to compare the budget that my successor at the Ministry of Finance, whoever it may be, will receive with what I received from the Bolsonaro government.
There is no comparison.
Desconhecido
Now, on the issue of interest rates, which you said are to blame for...
Desconhecido
I think the interest rate is at an inadequate level.
Desconhecido
Lula, in the same interview with Jornal Nacional, said that this 14% interest rate is very high and that he had to contend with Bolsonaro's Central Bank president, referring to Roberto Campos Neto, who was the Central Bank president appointed by Bolsonaro.
Desconhecido
He spent 2023 and 2024, in Lula's government, at the head of the Central Bank.
Desconhecido
You yourself, in a recent meeting with industry businessmen, said that the rate is miscalibrated and that you see no reason for it to remain at that level.
Desconhecido
Yes.
Desconhecido
It so happens that the current president of the Central Bank, Dario Durigan, was appointed by President Lula and has already been at the head of the Central Bank for one year and eight months.
Desconhecido
So there is also some issue with the management... Sorry.
Desconhecido
Galípolo, the current president Gabriel Galípolo, was appointed by Lula and has already been at the head of the Central Bank for one year and eight months.
Desconhecido
So, is there a problem then with Galípolo's management?
- Neutral
About: ensure the Central Bank's independence and technical autonomy
Well, look, the Central Bank has autonomy provided for by law.
It wasn't like that in the past.
In the past you could replace the president of the Central Bank whenever you saw fit.
Fernando Henrique had three presidents of the Central Bank, or four — I think four presidents of the Central Bank.
President Lula had only one.
Henrique Meredes stayed eight years.
So I'm not getting into that matter.
I'm addressing the following point.
I'm making an assessment of what I think monetary policy should be.
I'm not the president of the Central Bank, nor am I a director of the Central Bank.
But as an outside observer, any of us has the right to voice an opinion about what we think.
If the financial market can voice opinions, why can't I, as a former Minister of Finance, voice mine?
Desconhecido
Folks, I need to take a break.
Desconhecido
Now, we'll return to the subject, no problem, because we'll be back shortly with Fernando Haddad.
Desconhecido
See you shortly.
Desconhecido
Roda Viva back with the PT candidate, the governor of São Paulo, Fernando Haddad, Mônica Bergamo.
Desconhecido
I ran over you at the very end of the previous block, feel free, finish your question.
Desconhecido
I'd like to pick up here and continue on the same subject.
Desconhecido
You gave me an interview for Folha de São Paulo in October 2024 and you had a slightly different line of argument then.
Desconhecido
You were saying the following: you weren't talking about interest rates, you were talking about public debt.
Desconhecido
You said that the issue of spending, the dynamics of spending, was pressing, it was on the agenda.
Desconhecido
That you would tell Lula this constantly, that it was necessary to address this issue, because people needed to see that the sum of the parts fits into the whole.
Desconhecido
And you said that the sum of the minimum wage, of health, health spending, education, BPC, is more than the whole.
Desconhecido
And that this needed to be addressed urgently.
Desconhecido
But this was not addressed.
Desconhecido
So is the Central Bank to blame?
Desconhecido
Or is there a responsibility on the part of the government that did not address those issues you said were urgent?
About: implement national fiscal adjustment
First of all, they were addressed.
About: implement national fiscal adjustment
We sent a fiscal adjustment precisely in 2024.
It's hard to talk about very complex things very quickly.
But what happened?
No, there's time, go ahead and speak.
So, what happened?
No, I will answer everything you ask.
What happened?
About: send fiscal adjustment legislative package to the National Congress (PEC, law, MP)
We did a... We sent a PEC to the National Congress, we sent a complementary law, a provisional measure and a bill.
At the end of 2024.
Okay?
Desconhecido
You changing the minimum wage, health, education, the BPC?
Changing several rules.
Several rules.
There were things that Congress did not approve, but we sent them.
Now, what happened in that month of November, if I'm not mistaken?
- Neutral
About: approve tax reforms that benefit workers (e.g., exemption up to R$5,000)
The government decided to send... along with the package, the income tax law, the 5,000 reais exemption.
And there was a serious problem at that moment, because a rumor went around the financial market that the income tax exemption would cost 100 billion reais and there would be no fiscal counterpart, that is, there would be a fiscal shortfall of 100 billion reais.
That thing was a powder keg.
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