Video transcript
É ingenuidade continuar sonhando? | Simone Tebet e João Campos
643 statements · 2 politicians · August 6, 2026 · 57 min
Statements by Tabata Amaral, Simone Tebet. 643 transcribed statements, with topic and stance on the ones the analysis classified. Topics: Education, Governance and Participation, Party Membership, Housing policy.
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643 statementsFull transcript of the video. Statements the analysis classified carry topic and stance.
Folks, in this episode of Tabateando, I invite you to daydream with me.
In this dream, I have my two guests today, Simone Tebet and João Campos.
Simone Tebet is a lawyer, a professor, has been a senator, a minister of the Republic, among many other things — this woman is a powerhouse.
And João Campos is an engineer by training, was a federal deputy, mayor of Recife.
considered the best mayor of state capitals in Brazil, is a pre-candidate for the government of Pernambuco, and he has the honor of being my husband.
One thing they have in common, besides being very dear to me and to many people in our big Brazil, is that they both started in politics very early.
I have always been a very dreamy person.
So, remember, when I was very young, from a very early age I did embroidery to help my mother.
I embroidered, did crochet, every kind of stitch.
At first I sold the cloths at church, then during the break to the teachers, in the teachers' lounge.
It was our source of income.
And I think it wasn't a dream.
I thought I was going to work with that, you know?
My mother worked with that, some aunts, I think my grandmother embroidered too.
So, I think it wasn't a dream yet.
It was what I thought I would do.
but I had a very strong desire with my father for us to open a little craft shop for my mother so she could sell the cloths.
it was kind of.
I think that was the first dream.
as soon as we had it I then really wanted to have a room to study in.
I always loved studying, having silence to study at home, you know — budgie, parrot, dog, it's the neighbor's dog, the motorcycle, I don't know what.
And then came the Mathematics Olympiad, for public schools.
- Neutral
About: expand quality public education
I won my first CNPq scholarship.
With those 100 reais per month, for two years, we built the second floor of our house and my room, so I could study.
And then I think it was after that that I really began to have this thing about dreaming.
It stopped being what I thought I would work at, because... that's what my parents worked at.
And it became a real thing, like, man, nobody's ever done this, but I'm going to do it.
And I think there's something about getting older.
But there's also something about, for the first time, starting to ask what my dream was.
To this day, like, I'm 32 years old, almost 33.
Every time I meet a child or a young person, it's automatic.
Just walk with me.
I always ask, hi, what's your name?
How old are you?
What's your dream?
What do you want to do when you grow up?
And there are many children and teenagers who don't even like that question.
Many do like it.
But I think it's because for me it was so powerful.
When they started asking me what my dream was.
When they started seeing that I was worthy of having a dream.
That I had the capacity to fulfill one.
- Neutral
About: expand quality public education
And that was when I got the scholarship to the private school.
It was the first time someone came to talk to me about college entrance exams.
It was the first time people just assumed I would go to university.
No one had ever assumed I would go to college.
No one had ever assumed that college was for me.
And I understand, like, my parents didn't finish high school.
So, I think if I had gotten that far, it would already have been a lot.
But at the private school everything changed.
Everyone... They just assumed, because I was there among kids much richer than me, that I would also go to college, that I also had a dream.
And then, since I had that thing with the BIMEP, with the Olympiad, and since I also had this thing, like, man, I had a dream of having a room, and I got it because of studying, you know?
It wasn't because of the embroidery.
Besides, my parents took a good part of the money I managed to make selling the embroideries.
And then I began to say that I would first... study mathematics, because I was crazy about that Olympiad.
And then I discovered the Astronomy Olympiad.
I started saying I was going to be an astrophysicist.
I joke that nobody really understood it, right?
Like, what does an astrophysicist do?
I didn't even know.
But it impressed people and I had to answer.
And that dream of being an astrophysicist carried me all the way to college.
And it was only when I lost my father, the way I lost him.
That, on the one hand, I abandoned that dream.
About: expand quality public education
But another one emerged, which was really to work with public education, to return to Brazil, because I went to college abroad, to work so that more people would have the opportunities I had and fewer people would have the trajectory my father had.
So, I think that's it.
Education even taught me that: to dream.
Politics is a very cruel place for those who are idealistic, for those who are dreamers, for those who are pained by wrongs, for those who get outraged.
And I feel that in my two terms, more than seven years as a federal deputy, there were many attempts by the world to take away my dreams, my idealism.
It's almost as if it's a sin to be like that.
And I think a bit of what I've been trying to show, simply because it's the only way I know how to be, the only way I know how to exist, is that being a dreamer, being idealistic, wanting so many things for our country doesn't make me any less intelligent, any less courageous, any less tough, any less realistic.
And I think when I entered politics, I'm young, a woman, born poor, I don't have a well-known surname, so, you know, a general annoyance, right?
What's wrong?
How do you put her back where she came from?
I think many people thought they were going to fold me.
Because I have this face, I have this tone of voice, but I have these dreams.
And then I think it's very easy to look at someone who is idealistic, who is a dreamer and say Oh, how cute, let's beat the hell out of her, you know?
Let's, anyway, let's break this person, let's show what the real world is.
And look, I know that real world well, I think that's what they didn't understand.
I didn't grow up in a bubble.
My dreams don't come from some Pollyanna place, you know?
Very little in my life was rosy.
Very, very little.
Life showed itself very real to me very early on.
I think what people don't understand is that dreaming was a way to escape all of that.
It's not because I don't know reality, the harshness, the inequality, that I'm so dreamy.
It's because I know it.
And it's because those who come from below and who take as many hits as I have taken to get here, you know?
And so many trips up... If we don't have a lot of clarity about why we will get up, why we will try, why we won't give up, we can't, we break, we get left halfway.
So, I think that was a mistake by some people, to look at me and say, ah, cute little girl, she must not be used to how brutal politics is.
And I think I turned and said, you didn't understand anything.
I'm like this because I come from a place much tougher, actually, than this one.
I've taken much more beating than the ones I take today.
And it's pretty hard to break me.
Because there's God, because there's my family, because there are my dreams motivating me.
So, almost a... what's it called?
An ode to dreamers.
To those who can still make poetry in this life.
It's not the absence of reality that makes us like this.
It's from knowing reality all too well.
To the point that we want to change it.
And that the only path we have is to change it.
So, if I have dreams for politics, that's all I have.
It's what brings me here.
Because of personal characteristics, of personality.
I've never been someone who likes to be in the spotlight like that.
I've never been one to keep taking selfies of myself, which is something politicians sometimes like, right?
Having social media, showing up, giving speeches.
I'm not a person driven by power, by influence, by money.
And I say this largely because of the professional choices I made before entering politics.
I'm a quieter person; I like the hard work that doesn't always show.
But I understood that it's here that I'll be able to get things done.
So it's simply because I really have a lot of dreams.
Many dreams.
About: expand quality public education
for the girls of this country, many dreams for the children of this country, many dreams for the education of this country, many dreams for this Brazil.
I believe we can and deserve much more, and it outrages me that this is not happening.
Will I change this alone?
I won't.
But I'm not going to stay at home doing nothing.
About: mobilize society to promote political change
And if possible, I'll drag a crowd with me, which is what I've been doing.
So what drives me is having a dream.
As long as... if I have strength and God gives me strength, as long as I can take the hits, I'm here, because I'm not going to stop dreaming; that's who I am.
The person we're going to hear now is a woman I admire greatly.
About: attract and enroll leaders into the political party
She knows this and many people know it too; so much so that back then I was the first person to start that big campaign to bring her to the PSV.
And to invite her, in fact.
And that person is Simone Tebet.
I agree with many of her positions.
I have a lot of affection, respect, admiration for her trajectory, but I think what creates the most identification is the way she presents herself to the world.
Being a woman in politics is not easy; it's no joke.
And I think many women put on these outfits and characters to withstand the pressure, you know?
Desconhecido
And I feel she is who she is.
She is a person who is sweet but who also knows how to be firm.
Someone who, like me, is a nerd, a real CDF.
Super prepared, cares about studying things.
And I think that genuine quality she brings to politics is sorely missing.
And knowing that she dreams big dreams for Brazil, you know?
That despite having been in politics many more years than I have, and also coming from a political family, for her, politics is still a place to realize collective dreams.
And so many people have forgotten this, or never thought about it, that I think we need to listen to this woman more.
So, here is Simone Tebet.
Dear Minister Simone Tebet, thank you very much for accepting our invitation.
It's an honor for me to be talking with you.
You know of my admiration, my full respect, how much you inspire me, and you certainly inspire many people in our Brazil.
And before we can talk about dreaming in politics, if that's possible, I would really like people to get to know you better.
So before speaking about the senator, the minister, someone who has already been a presidential candidate, I wanted to hear from you about who Simone Tebet is, what you saw in your home that... anyway, made you the person you are today.
First, thank you, Tabata.
It's an honor to be able to work here, to be with you on this podcast, talking with people.
It's a topic that, for me, is as pleasant as it is necessary.
Without dreams, we have no hope, we have no future.
And it's very good to talk about ourselves, because people imagine, as Brazilians, I am a daughter of the very interior of Brazil.
So I'm that girl who was born in a time—during my adolescence—of the Diretas Já movement.
It took me a long time to understand why my home, though a political household, since I was five years old my father became mayor of my hometown and never stopped.
So my childhood was very quiet, but at the same time a politicized childhood.
So, very young, with a very demanding mother—'you have to study, you have to study'—I passed the university entrance exam at 16 in Rio de Janeiro.
Imagine leaving the interior of Mato Grosso do Sul and going to Rio de Janeiro, at a time when there was no internet.
I'm from a generation in which, in my adolescence—I'm not saying 50%, but more than 40% of the Brazilian population—was considered low-income, between the destitute and the truly poor class.
So I saw that whole evolution of Brazil.
And my dream was to be a lawyer, like my father.
Fate took me to the classroom; very young, my father said, 'I need a substitute, sometimes I can't go, you'll replace me in the classes.' At 22 I was at the universities, and then I was hired by the universities, because I think it's my true vocation, I believe, because the students liked me very much, and I taught for 12 years at universities—exactly in what?
In administrative law, how to administer a city—that's where it was, that's it.
My father, who never encouraged me to enter politics, encouraged me to be a political being, an activist, but not to hold an office; he said, 'look, everyone is saying you have to be a candidate.'
And I, out of fear, out of insecurity—I was a relatively shy person—would say, 'no, this isn't for me; I like the backstage, I don't want the spotlight.'
I delayed for four years until the moment I couldn't say no to my father any longer; I said, 'I'll do a test.'
And the test has been going on for twenty-some years.
I'm still testing myself, right?
And it's the ballot boxes that decide our destiny, right, Tava?
I always joke like this: if it is the will of God and the people, I am ready.
And I'm sure the test is going very well and that your father is very proud.
I wanted to hear about that trajectory from you.
I think that all of us who look at the world as it is, who are able to see all this inequality in Brazil, we are political.
Regardless of holding office, regardless of party, because taking a stance, being bothered, trying to do something to change that reality is politics.
But I believe the greatest honor was being mayor, because it was also the greatest responsibility.
- For
About: promote social housing and revitalize public spaces downtown
And the moment for me that is most precious, that touches my heart, that fills me with joy, that in difficult moments—when I say, I want to stop, it's not working anymore, the burden is too heavy, especially in this world of social media—has always been handing over the key to a home to a woman full of children who had nowhere to live and who always had to make the hard and sad choice between paying rent or having money at the end of the month to put food on the table.
So this thing about being permanent—it's permanent—no one will take it away from me. If I become aware of any type of violence, I kick the husband or partner out of the house, because my children will not sleep under a bridge.
Of course there are many wonderful moments, but this one in particular touches my heart deeply.
I know well what owning a home means to us.
About: regularize housing and grant property titles
I'm still fighting to legalize my family's house, because the public authorities seem to create all kinds of barriers so that we don't give people decent housing—the title.
But imagine your happiness to see that.
And now I'm already messing up the whole script, but I wanted... to hear you: when you entered politics, what was the dream that moved you and what was the vision you carried, and to what extent has experience been changing or refining that vision and those dreams as well?
My father was a political man and he spoke with great enthusiasm; he spoke with his hands; he convinced people a lot with his speech, with his words.
So, seeing my father speak of dreams, of equality, of fulfilling people's dreams, made me question a lot.
All kinds of misery.
I began my education in a public school.
And then, one day, my father invited me... I must have been seven years old, something like that, because later, at eight, he was no longer mayor.
So I was six or seven years old when I went to a very distant neighborhood.
And it was very dark; we went by car; it seemed like it would never arrive.
And I arrived in that neighborhood, the Guanabara neighborhood in my town, and everything there was gathered around a wooden pole, in the surrounding darkness.
And I didn't understand anything, then there was a countdown, and from the darkness the light came on.
And there were two or three children there, besides the other children and everyone playing, whom I recognized as being from my school.
Afonso Pena School.
It was very far away, indeed.
And that gave me that start.
While I had a refrigerator in my home, electric power, I had children from my school who still studied by candlelight or didn't have electricity in their homes.
And I was always greatly encouraged by my mother, who is Catholic, very Christian, about this thing of inequality.
So, what moves me is... Injustice bothers me a lot.
All kinds of injustice.
Because of that.
Any kind of injustice.
The injustice of a verbal assault by someone who speaks about another.
The injustice of me having so much and so many people having so little.
And I'm not talking about absolute equality.
That doesn't exist.
That's utopia.
If only it were possible.
- For
About: reduce socioeconomic inequality
But I'm talking about the dreams of a less unequal country, where at least everything has the basics.
So that's what drives me.
It's ensuring dignity for people.
I think it's very easy for you to say you're Christian,
that you're evangelical, that you're Catholic, or that you have some religion.
You go, kneel, ask God, pray, right?
Then you leave the church... and do the exact opposite of what you preach.
And I keep questioning that, you know?
In how one deals with others, in the manner of acting.
- For
About: reduce socioeconomic inequality
So, I think what drives me is fighting injustices and reducing social inequality.
And my dream, right?
And then you ask, what about along the way?
Along the way come all the frustrations, Tabata.
- For
About: combat corruption in the federal government
The frustration of seeing a lost political class, the frustration of seeing that the well-intentioned,
first, the ill-intentioned discrediting politics, good politics, pushing young people away from politics, the good ones having difficulty advancing, because it's very hard; there's a saying I use a lot: lies take the elevator, but truth takes the stairs.
So, through narratives... You deconstruct, you discourage, so you always have a political class that doesn't serve the interests.
- For
About: combat corruption in the federal government
So, you mentioned the bureaucracy at your mother's house, well bureaucracy bothers me, the indifference of part of the political class, all sorts of corruption bother me, because that's money missing at the health post.
That kind of injustice bothers me a lot and it's what drives me despite all the difficulties.
I'm going to start using that phrase.
We recorded... an episode here on the podcast about social media.
And I was able to talk with a teenage boy and a teenage girl.
And it became very clear how much more complex it is to be a teenager today, how complex it is to focus, to study, to stay motivated, not to get lost, not to be guided by pressures.
And them saying that the impression they get is that the political class, for the most part, has no idea of the challenges young people are going through.
And also doesn't want to listen.
And also doesn't want to try to solve them.
So, I think having this relationship of 'I'm here to listen to you, we're here to do it together' is fundamental.
And in that line, you mentioned today twice this world of the internet, of social networks.
- Neutral
About: reduce polarization on social media
And it's not all the fault of the internet, but in my reading and that of those who study the subject a lot, the internet... explains a large part of the division we're seeing, the polarization, and also how, when you encourage hate, rage, division, and lies, it seems you get further in politics.
You go further, you get more likes, you go viral, you get more votes.
About: promote dialogue and mediation in politics
And I'll use here a phrase from our dear vice-president, Geraldo Alckmin, who says it takes a lot of courage
for you not to bet on division.
You need a lot of courage to defend the truth.
You have to have a lot of courage to be measured and play a mediating role, to say, look, let's find a solution.
Let's see what is possible here.
And understand that courage consistently.
It was like that in the CPI da Covid, it was like that in your presidential campaign, of 'I'm not going to do any circus here, I'm not going to stop being who I am.'
because that could bring me votes.
So I wanted to ask you, in this time of fear and so much radicalism that we're seeing, how to stay integrous and how to keep betting on these values,
and whether you think there's still room for this way of doing politics.
We must persist with courage and with character.
I think it's... To have courage and to have character.
History shows that no evil lasts a lifetime.
History is a cycle: you leave an extreme, then move toward the center.
- Neutral
About: reduce political polarization
Surveys today show, when I say surveys I'm not talking about numbers about who will be elected president of the republic.
When you do qualitative research with groups, who is this Brazilian who votes today, the number of people already tired of this polarization, of this hate speech, of fake news, of narratives that don't add up, already exceeds 50%, even though that's not what defines a centrist candidacy; that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about the fatigue with this hate speech, and because I believe in Brazil, I believe in the Brazilian people.
The Brazilian people are God-fearing; they are people who believe in the word of the Bible or in whatever God they believe in, who know that those who have faith have solidarity and love in their hearts.
- Neutral
About: implement policies to preserve jobs and prevent company bankruptcies
That temporarily we are in a surge, we came out of a pandemic, the world is like this, we are facing... challenges from artificial intelligence that can take jobs, an absurd social inequality, a squeezed middle class that has to pay a lot of taxes and feels it's unfair that it is becoming impoverished.
So we have to understand that these anguishes of the population lead people to seek... I say it's an escape.
- For
About: adapt political practices to social networks and artificial intelligence
Today social media monetizes that bad side; we have to adapt to the new times of social networks, of artificial intelligence and this crazy environment we're living in.
But I've already lived long enough; history shows that everything is cyclical and this will pass.
Now, for it to pass faster, it takes someone with the courage to say, this is not the way.
I'm just a little ant in the middle of this process.
And it's okay not to be understood.
Again, courage... it's for that.
It's okay to have haters, people who will hate you for that, people who have their side and it may be that I'm a minority at this moment, but I am convinced I will be the majority very soon.
- For
About: rebuild Brazilian politics based on dialogue and consensus
We have to come together into a battalion, a broad front, to be able to rebuild Brazilian politics, based on consensus, dialogue, divergence, with rationality, with balance and with civility above all.
Let's talk about how we do to... to rebuild this Brazil, I think the first thing is... I agree with everything you brought up.
We are living this moment of collective insanity, a war of loyalties, in which what motivates hate, what motivates taking a stand, what motivates the vote, many times is the denial of the other, it's hatred of the other, and not a desire to build a better country.
A genuine desire to solve our problems.
So how do we... get out of this collective insanity and say, no, let's go back to uniting so we can work toward something positive.
Is that possible?
And how do we do that?
- For
About: reconnect the political class with the population
Well, first it's necessary that the political class, the good people in politics, reconnect with the streets.
Because today we do politics only through social media.
And social media represent only a portion of the electorate.
And that portion is often, as we said, angry, anguished, using it as a pressure valve, to not say anything else, to vent and let off all their frustrations.
Most of the Brazilian population wakes up at dawn, takes public transport, spends two hours to go, two hours to return, to struggle, to earn a pittance, say, one and a half times the minimum wage, and support their family, and don't have much time for social media.
So, Milton Nascimento has a song, since the time of the Diretas Já, we have to go where the people are, so returning to the public square is fundamental.
- For
About: prioritize listening to citizens in policy formulation
Second, listening more than speaking.
It's not top-down.
And then we have to make a bit of self-blame from the more progressive field, from the center, center-left and even the left.
We mustn't come with a moral lesson, saying 'this is how it has to be.'
Understand that the world has changed, human relations have changed, Brazil has changed, labor relations have changed, so everything has changed.
- For
About: end six-for-one work schedule without salary reduction
Just as we defend ending the 6x1 shift system without a pay cut, Tabata, we have to understand that there is a self-employed worker out there who doesn't want any of that.
He doesn't want a work card?
And I don't have to demand an explanation.
I have to understand, like, why?
He will tell you, 'It's because my whole life I didn't have it, Tabata.'
'I didn't have it, Simone, my whole life.'
'I had one year on the work card and when there was an economic crisis I went into informality.'
'I had one year registered and three years informal.'
And from informal work, I had an employer.
I had set hours, I wasn't my own boss.
So, given informality, I'd rather be self-employed.
So, it's about understanding that.
And when we understand, and then we reconnect the political class, the political class reconnects with the people, we return to being the center of the debate.
We stop having those from the far right who only say what the people want, without any filter, saying a bunch of nonsense — to avoid saying anything cruder — and sometimes winning the mind and heart of that frustrated voter who wants to be heard and who isn't connected with the political class.
So I think this is primordial.
The form—that is, the way of doing politics—has to change.
And we can't hide that the blame is ours.
We have to accept partial blame, not only in form but in content.
And you are a great... I know because you champion this cause.
When they look, when they've worked hard all month and there's nothing left, they wait for the last week, for God's sake, for the calendar to pass quickly, quickly, because they don't have a single cent left in their pocket, as I used to say, and they need those five days to receive their wage.
- For
About: combat organized crime and strengthen public security
Then they turn on the TV, or see on social media, or on WhatsApp, corruption schemes, billion-dollar crises, involving not only the political class but part of civil society, organized groups, public security, sometimes making them even more insecure.
Organized crime that came out of the large cities and is now also in medium and small towns, with total insecurity, they go looking for a messiah, they go looking for a savior of the homeland.
And then we have to come and say, look, it's neither one extreme nor the other; the way is the center, even if you have a more left or more right position, but the path is the dialogue of the center, to look forward and not to the sides.
Anyway, I know it's difficult, it's thankless, but I already perceive a behavioral change in the Brazilian electorate.
He's getting fed up, because he's seeing that this hate speech doesn't put food on his table.
Hate doesn't solve the problem of his child's insecurity who goes out at dawn to go to the club, to party, as all young people have to do, because it's natural, but the mother who is there waiting knows that this hate speech won't give security for her son to come back home alive, and so on.
- For
About: elect better senators and deputies
So choose a representative who defends your agenda.
If your agenda is an improvement in my child's public education or health, I want more security.
So go after it... don't fail to vote.
Well, it's not just for the President of the Republic, it's especially for those who make the laws in Brazil, which is the National Congress.
So, choose people — the likes of tábata, so many women and men of good character, young or not, who act, who are well-intentioned in public life.
And, God willing, we'll have you there in the Senate.
- Neutral
About: strengthen the role of the National Congress
I've said this a lot: today Congress is more important than the President of the Republic.
A bad Congress destroys the country, and a good Congress... can even hold up a bad president, if need be.
So, super important.
Perhaps our most important question, which I was most eager to hear you answer.
What is your dream for Brazil?
And how do we get there, obviously, but what do you dream for our country, for our people, for our future?
My dream itself, which is every mother's dream, is, in reality, still a utopia today.
- For
About: eradicate child hunger
It's that not a single child sleeps hungry in Brazil.
I have two Marias at home and they never went hungry.
So, this motherly love... I extend it to all the children of Brazil, I can't help it, it's an indignation I have, but I'll close by recalling, I mentioned Eduardo Galeano, a shame I didn't remember earlier, I would have brought the text here, because, you see, there's a difference between utopia and dream: he was giving a lecture, I don't know, at a university, they asked him, and when asked what a dream was, he said that a dream is on the horizon, it's there.
With every two steps I take, it moves two steps away.
If I take ten steps, it moves two steps away.
Then a young man asks him, so what is utopia for?
And he says, it serves exactly for that: for us to keep walking.
- For
About: reduce poverty
Which I think is that — along the way, we achieve that utopia, in my case, of every child sleeping with a full belly.
But how many children will be lifted out of misery, how many fathers will be taken off the map of hunger, and how many families we'll give dignity to.
So that's it.
Thank you very much, it was a pleasure talking with you and I hope from the bottom of my heart that we come out a little better from this year's election.
Desconhecido
Let's work for that.
Collectivity as a country.
Desconhecido
Let's work for that, okay?
Desconhecido
Thank you very much for the invitation.
One of the things Simone said in the interview that I found most beautiful, perhaps, was her conveying the feeling of actually realizing that collective dream when she... as mayor, handed the keys of a home to a mother.
And, well, I grew up in an occupation, so for me what that family feels when receiving that key is very concrete, but I can also identify a lot with what she described.
I haven't been a mayor yet, I hope to be one day, but I joke that in Congress I push the limits of what can be done as a deputy, which is concrete.
About: provide free sanitary pads in public schools
Which in my case is arriving at a school and seeing a package of sanitary pads in the bathroom.
Arriving at a school also and meeting the young person who's receiving the little nest egg and who comes to tell me what he's doing with that resource.
Or the dreams he's planning with that savings.
And of course I have several projects that are not as tangible as these.
And they're super important too.
But those you can almost touch — they're wonderful.
Because... they show it's worth it, I think that's it, that it's worth dreaming, that it's worth believing.
And that's what I say is missing in politics, you know?
At least in my opinion, a politician shouldn't be satisfied with their power or with their personal achievements, because then I think they should go into another field — that's not politics — but that thing of fulfilling yourself so much.
And one more step, one more opportunity, one more right that a person can obtain because you were there working, that's really great.
About: increase women's participation in politics
And I think that also explains a lot why we should have more women in politics.
Because men, we need you to be with us on this.
But just as only you know how some men feel, there are situations that only we understand.
And a mother... who finds herself completely alone in the world.
When she receives her house, that's it.
She is secure in many ways and she begins to allow herself to dream much more for herself and for her children.
Folks, now I'm going to bring a guest who for me is one of the most extraordinary guys in Brazilian politics.
And not only because he's very beloved by people and because he's already accomplished many things.
that have in fact changed many people's lives and opened horizons for many, but because he has values I've had the joy and opportunity to get to know and that really make me believe in this good politics, the politics that makes things happen, you know?
Which is honest, that brings together hardworking people who are there for the right reasons.
And of course I could stay here praising him for 10 hours.
João, my husband.
But I don't need to do that.
Because I think you really want to hear how that conversation with him went.
And then just one reflection.
Before João was my boyfriend and my husband, he was my friend.
And despite us having very different trajectories, I think we connected so much in the work itself and in friendship.
Because of our values.
And I think we're at a moment when values aren't talked about so much.
But João and I could perhaps not have more opposite trajectories.
I'm the daughter of a diarista and a bus fare collector.
João is the great-grandson and son of former governors of Pernambuco.
So they're very different social origins, very different political origins.
But as soon as we met... I found myself fighting alongside him in many causes.
About: ensure quality public education
The cause of public education, the cause of technical education, which is a cause we share, the cause also of digital transformation, the cause of women, the cause of care.
And it's very cool when you have a friend and you say, man, how great, you understand me.
We get outraged by the same wrong things.
We want to promote the same changes in the world.
So I think it's very natural that beyond our personal relationship and this love that arose from friendship and joint work, we also work together, side by side, in the party today, because it's really a... We don't even agree on all positions, but we agree on the values.
And I think that's the most important thing.
Let's take a look at how that conversation went.
Hi, João.
Thanks for accepting my invitation.
It's a pleasure to be talking with you.
And I'll try not to go easy on you anymore, okay?
But it's going to be a great conversation.
Thanks a lot.
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Alright.
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Great.
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I'm so happy to be able to participate in this podcast, and with you it's even more special.
Let's go for it.
João, I wanted to ask you a question I ask everyone who comes here.
Which is for you to introduce yourself.
And then I think people will get to know more about João.
Former mayor, pre-candidate for governor, party president.
But I wanted you to say a little about who João is outside of politics.
So, in the very few hours when you're not working and not sleeping, what do you like to do?
Who are you in the world?
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Go ahead.
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I'm a Recife-born Pernambucan, 32 years old.
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I was born on November 26, 1993.
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I'm a civil engineer by training, was elected federal deputy, the youngest mayor in the history of the state capitals, later re-elected with the largest vote in Recife's history, newly married
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to
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you, with Tabata, and I really like politics, so I was born in an environment
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very
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present in politics; when I was born my father was already a deputy, so my exposure to politics has been since I was born.
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And I really like to work.
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So, in fact, I've had little free time.
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But much of what I do is about taking care of people.
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It's dedicating my time to doing politics, to listening, to thinking about how to solve problems.
True.
One thing, maybe, has this problem, right?
That I end up wanting to answer you.
But I think it's nice to talk about your passion for riding, for horses.
It's something I learned from you.
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Yeah, I learned from my grandfather, you know?
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My grandfather had a small farm.
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near Recife, and he basically taught me to ride a horse, so I've always liked riding horses, always liked going into nature, going to his farm, being able to ride with friends who also ride.
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I confess I've hardly done that, but it's something that always gives me a great peace.
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I think the last time I rode a horse was at the Cavalgada Pedra do Rei, in São José do Belmonte, which you were at, by the way.
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Almost 30 kilometers on horseback to climb the Serra do Catalei at Pedra do Reino.
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And I think it's a very special moment.
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You end up connecting with nature and with something different.
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And it brings, at least for me, a great peace of mind.
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So it's good, you know?
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It's a feeling of doing something light that you enjoy.
Perfect.
If you had to say in a few words, what was João like as a child?
And also bringing another question: back then could you see yourself in that place in politics or not — did you want something completely different?
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Since I was a child I was someone who really liked sports, I liked inventive things, so I, for example, maybe the toy I liked most was a toolbox, so building things, assembling... with some ingenuity, so much so that I always wanted to study engineering.
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At seven years old, I used to say, I want to be an engineer, I want to be an engineer.
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I didn't even really know what engineering was, but I knew I wanted to work, study in that area.
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I was someone who really liked nature.
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The best place in the world for me was my grandfather's farm.
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And the best day of the week was Saturday, when I went there with him.
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I didn't think about going into politics.
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At first I didn't even really understand what it was, right?
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It was my father's job, I didn't really know what it was.
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And as you grow up, you get more sense of it and learn more.
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But I didn't think I had a knack for politics.
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I even thought I wouldn't get it right.
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Giving an interview would be one of the things I wouldn't be able to do.
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And for me today it's something super natural, you know.
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But I thought I wouldn't be able to give an interview or make a speech.
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It was one of the things I thought: how will I get into politics if I won't know how to give an interview or make a speech?
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And then later I saw that I actually had a knack for it.
Definitely.
And you know this story, but it reminded me that my mother was once called to school when I was very young — I used to tell this — because the teachers were worried about my shyness and they thought I would never be able to speak in public.
So... Anyway, I find it funny.
Like, two shyer, nerdier people, and then they're forced to be talking nonstop.
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About: increase young people's trust in politics
João, speaking now about our battle-scarred Brazil, there are many people who look at your political work, who look at my political work and feel hope.
And I always take care not to get vain about that.
And to understand that, in part, people are looking so much to us.
- Neutral
About: encourage political participation of young people
Because, in general, there are few young people willing to enter politics, willing, in short, to believe that politics can be a place of transformation.
About: reduce political polarization and promote national unity
And of those who do enter, it's rare for them not to fall for the siren song of extremism, right?
Because being an extremist gets likes, goes viral, but doesn't change anyone's life.
So, I think people look to us so much, first because we, at a very young age, decided to enter this public life.
About: reduce political polarization and promote national unity
And secondly, because we do it in a different way than other young people are doing, which is to bet on building, on the middle path.
About: encourage political participation of young people
But I wanted, along those lines, to take a step back, because I think it's part of my mission and yours to bring other young people in.
Not to think that the answer is us.
No, the answer — we can help lead that answer, but it has to go through an entire generation.
And then I wanted to hear from you.
Why do you think so many young people stopped believing in Brazil?
and stopped believing in politics.
What do you have to say to those young people?
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Look, at first I wouldn't want to deny that they have reasons.
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But, in a second moment, we need to understand that the difference between an antidote and a poison is the size of the dose.
- For
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About: encourage constructive political participation
So, the remedy to improve this, the way... is not to go into anti-politics, it's not to go toward deconstruction, nor is it to go for performative outrage, it's not to go for an easy solution.
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You record a one-minute video on YouTube and say, no, Brazil will be solved this way, everything is fixed this way.
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It's not like that, it's a bit more complex.
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So, we are not going to take away people's reasons
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for being disbelieving, since part of politics has contributed a lot to people becoming disillusioned and distrustful.
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But we can't go along with that problem that often happens
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that, in a radicalized environment.
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Imagine the country is a house and the problems of politics and Brazil are like an infestation of pests, of rats in the house.
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And then.
- For
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About: reduce political polarization and promote national unity
the solution you give to get rid of the rats is to set the house on fire, burn the whole house down.
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Then you've burned down the country.
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So, be careful with these solutions, which are false solutions, which would be equivalent to setting the house on fire to get rid of the pests.
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You burn the house down.
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So, it's important to tell the youth this, to say, look... Let's be calm, let's look calmly and think the right way about how to overcome these problems and face these challenges.
- For
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About: reduce political polarization and promote national unity
And it's unlikely that a radicalized solution will solve it.
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Now, it has to be a path with purpose.
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You know where you're going to get to, you know what you're going to do, how to do it.
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You won't give up that essential path.
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You have to have a lot of purpose
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to do it.
- For
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About: formulate and implement concrete policy proposals
You can't be weak on proposals, but intransigence is not the way.
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So, we understand you being upset, sad, disappointed with politics, but the way is not to deny politics, destroy politics, or do politics in the worst way, no.
- For
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About: formulate and implement concrete policy proposals
Let's get it on track and do it in a way that delivers results and has proposals.
I would vote for you, I vote for you, but let's speak to those young people here.
who might be listening and say, no, gosh, I like Tabata's vision, I like João's vision, I think there's a way, but it's not for me.
Like, what they're saying is, 'those are other people who will help them; politics is not for me.'
What do we say to those people?
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I thought I wouldn't be able to give interviews or make speeches, and I went there and I managed.
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And I think I do it well.
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For sure.
- For
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About: encourage civic political participation
It's about saying, everyone can contribute in some way.
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Everyone can contribute in some way.
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Always try to think of the other, think of others.
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Having a sense of collectivity is very important in politics.
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So any individualistic mindset hinders the construction of a society.
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And each person can contribute in some way.
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Thus, there's a guy who will put on the jersey at World Cup time, there's a guy who will wear the number 10 and be up front, there's a guy who will be in the midfield, there's a fullback, there's the goalkeeper, but for that
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there is
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a coach, there is a fitness coach, there is a goalkeeping coach, there is a guy who today uses Big Data to... be able to define what is the best moment to make the substitution.
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There's the guy who is taking care of preparing the food for the people.
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There’s the guy who’s going to transport them, who’s going to drive the truck, or both, to take people there.
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Everyone is contributing to a team winning a World Cup.
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In their own way.
- For
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About: encourage civic political participation
The feeling you get is that when you say, like, you want to help in politics, it’s as if... As if you were calling everyone to be the number 10, the team captain, the top scorer who will lift the trophy.
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No.
- For
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About: encourage civic political participation
When we call people to politics, it’s not for everyone to run for an executive office.
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It’s so we build a sense of collectivity, distribute tasks, so each one gives their contribution and makes our city, our state, our country a fairer and better place.
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And even if you dislike politics.
- For
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About: encourage civic political participation
If you’re not part of it or helping to decide around it, someone will be doing that for you.
- For
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About: encourage civic political participation
So get involved in politics, take part, question, criticize, be respectful in politics and try to make some contribution.
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To finish, I’m going to be a little self-serving here.
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I learn a lot from you, every day.
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So, I wanted to ask you what you’ve learned from me.
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If there’s something in your way of seeing Brazil, politics, that you think has changed a little bit in these almost seven years we’ve been together.
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I think your persistent way — in the sense of dreaming and believing — is very strong.
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So, many times I’ve seen some things I said and thought, my God, forget it, there’s no chance at all, and then you go there and manage to do it.
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Your way of dreaming and persisting is very much who you are.
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So, that message I gave at the end, I think it really reflects your way of believing, wanting the best and not giving up.
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So, that’s... And most of the time, people who get very far, who fly very high, as you do, and who teach a lot, it’s that.
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People dream, people don’t give up.
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They don’t give up.
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Because those who give up get left behind along the way.
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And I think you teach me that a lot, every day, to have good purposes and the energy to not give up.
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That, in fact, I think you give a true lesson — your very life, right?
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If someone had been born where you were born, with the income you had, in terms of family income, schooling, then if you looked at it statistically, it would be very difficult for you to be where you are.
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You have reached where you are and you will go much further.
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So, that’s an example of dreaming and persistence.
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I have no doubt that you inspire me every day with that.
That’s wonderful, I’m happy.
And just, anyway, I didn’t give examples, but I think one thing that has been changing in my relationship with politics, through living with you, is knowing how to do things with a lot of joy and happiness.
Even when things are very difficult.
I felt it a lot, especially at the start of my path, the shock of the attacks, the death threats, the police reports, the difficulties, the insults.
And I think it took me a long time to be able to reduce that to the size it really is, which is small, and to feel very fulfilled day to day.
And to be on a street schedule... And to understand how wonderful it is to be there listening to people, talking to people, managing to approve a project, managing to shape a family’s path.
And I owe that a lot to you.
We will work 12, 18 hours a day.
We will work from Sunday to Sunday.
They will insult us, they will attack us.
It’s always better to do that with a smile on your face and with an open heart than with a closed-off expression.
So, I think that’s very good.
For those who want to believe in Brazil, for those who haven’t given up and will not give up.
What word, what phrase do you leave behind?
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Believe and dream.
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Dreaming is the essence of it.
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We need to dream.
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Let’s dream of a better Brazil and let’s not give up on this journey.
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There will always be challenges, always.
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A road will never be just a straight line with no slope.
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It will have curves, it will have ups and downs.
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And what will make the difference are those who don’t give up along the way.
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And who persist on the journey and who dream during that journey.
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So dream a lot and never give up.
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João, I think that’s it.
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Would you like to leave a final message?
- For
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About: promote social inclusion and equal opportunities
No, just to thank you and congratulate you on the initiative and that we have more people dreaming and working for a better, more inclusive politics.
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And to thank you for not only inspiring me, but inspiring so many people across Brazil.
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And that’s it, let’s go forward.
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And the good thing about talking about the future is that it’s where everyone wants to live, including us.
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So let’s go build that future.
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Agreed.
Guys, this was one of the hardest interviews to do because I was dying of embarrassment.
Those who know me know I’m all tough, super brave, ready to fight with the grown men, to fight for projects.
But talk about personal life and I turn all red.
So I was there dying of embarrassment during the interview.
But I hope you liked it.
Anyway, I’m recording this episode from São Paulo.
A lot of people ask, right?
I work and live in São Paulo.
Like, it would be impossible for me to be a good congresswoman.
Or it would at least be very difficult if I weren’t here with people, visiting NGOs, hospitals, walking the streets, you know?
Getting to know things.
So, I work in Brasília from Tuesday to Thursday.
And I work and live here in São Paulo from Thursday to Tuesday, right?
Tuesday and Thursday are kind of split.
And then the dynamics keep changing, right?
We’ve been together almost seven years.
But right now I’ve been going to Pernambuco every other Sunday.
It’s very little.
We get so homesick.
But we joke that God prepares the paths.
And if we’ve come this far, God will help and we’ll go much further.
But that’s it.
Thank you, João, for agreeing.
He didn’t have to... Like, he had to sign the image use release, right?
He was like, man, I have to sign this.
He doesn’t say, man, it was me, right?
Do I have to sign this?
I said, my son, you signed much worse things at the registry office, you know?
Marriage, division of assets, just sign the image release.
So he signed and everything was fine.
I wanted to thank you very much.
You know I get a little embarrassed in front of the camera; for me it’s easier to deal with people directly, but it’s a very old desire, honestly, I’ve been thinking about this for some years now.
To be closer, to talk, you know, social media, like a tweet, one minute, otherwise people don’t see it.
What fits in a tweet?
What fits in a minute?
Deep conversations, certainly not.
And maybe just to finish, I invited these two wonderful people whom I admire a lot from politics for us to dream about Brazil, but I think it’s worth saying a little about the dream, right, that I have, that we have for this city where I was born, grew up, and live.
And obviously our trajectory, our history, shapes a lot the lens through which we see the world.
And my background was deeply marked by inequality.
And my trajectory has been very much marked by inequalities.
You know, I've been from A to Z. I know everything from extreme poverty to extreme luxury in São Paulo.
And that's what moves me, because that's what bothers me.
This isn't a speech against the São Paulo elite.
You can criticize some things, right?
But it's a statement about a city with so much money, so many resources, that simply doesn't reach everyone.
About: guarantee equal opportunities between children of the poor and rich
And my dream is as simple as wanting the poor person's child to have the same opportunities as the rich person's child.
And it's hard to put that into practice, right?
And it can't be by chance, it can't be just luck or a herculean effort that depends on 40 thousand things happening like it did for me.
About: ensure public safety
It's about us being able to walk the streets safely.
About: expand public daycare slots
Girls especially, women, it's about us, from the very earliest childhood, having access to daycare, to quality healthcare, you know?
About: ensure quality public education
For school to be a place where the poor child enrolls and the family thinks, yes, if they make an effort they'll become a doctor.
- Neutral
About: ensure quality public education
We know that's not what happens today.
About: redistribute municipal resources to finance basic public services
So, if the richest, most incredible city we have in this country can't provide that... What's the point, you know?
About: redistribute municipal resources to finance basic public services
What is all this wealth for?
About: redistribute municipal resources to finance basic public services
What is all this development for?
About: ensure basic public services for all
So that's my dream, because I think if we give people the basics, they'll do incredible things we can hardly even conceive.
About: ensure quality public education
So my dream for this city is that, that a mother... in Jardim Pava, where I was recently, or in my missionary village, or in Brasilândia, or in São Mateus, anywhere in this city, that this mother says, I'm going to
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enroll
About: ensure quality public education
my child in public school, because from now on he will be able to be whatever he wants,
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